Curse

leprekan · Jan 14, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Then close the thread already. I feel I've made intelligent arguments, but because they were made using analogies, they were deleted. Oh wait, only some were?

Go back, most used analogies. Delete 'em all. I'm done.

Inde has gone to great lengths to do the right thing in letting those banned have another medium to try to reach Anet. I for one greatly appreciate that fact. I and I am sure ALL that were banned really view this forum as one of our VERY limited means of contact with Anet. Please do not go out of your way to have that stripped from us.

Calling for a thread to be closed because your rant was deleted .. shows that the count was more important than the message. Do what rational people do when they get frustrated. Walk away for abit.

Naughty Zoot · Jan 14, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake_Steel

"An exploit is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that take advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized)."

People got to outpost by exploiting the GW software. There can be absolutely NO doubt about this. Just by being in the outpost you exploited the game.

From what I have read it seems to me that many of those who did use the exploit did so out of sheer curiosity, because ‘it seemed like a good idea at the time’ (but now regret it), or by getting involved through friends - but certainly not with the intention of making a huge amount of money (though I’m sure there are those who did that as well).

I have some sympathy for the former (insofar as they didn’t know the exploit originated from a ‘hack’, if this is indeed the case), and none whatsoever for the latter.

At best, some of them have been a bit naïve (hey, even the most experienced players are allowed to be naïve once in a while!) or ignorant. At worst, downright greedy.

The difficulty, of course, is where do you draw the line? As many people have already indicated, the bar has been set quite high. To me, a permanent ban just for visiting the hidden outpost, or even farming Mallyx a few times seems a bit harsh, even for those who maybe realised that they shouldn’t be there. But then again, I’m not privy to all the facts.

seut · Jan 14, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

The step by step showed that it was a generic ferry. Only in hindsight would people be second guessing where it took you. This is why the Duncan ferry keeps returning in our posts.

If i remember correctly, you were ferried to that outpost with your first character and your step by step guide was done with a second character on the same account. Unfortunately this might be no proof of simple ferry'ing to Anet, since you've recreated the steps on the same account and you getting ferried there on your first char might have tipped over an account wide isAllowedToThatOutpost-bit.
Of course, if you've done it on an account untainted by any previous ferry'ing, then it should be considered as proof.
Unfortunately Anet wasn't able to reproduce getting there by either your guide or pablo24's idea (which involves a weird(!) glitch). Getting there for the very first time by hacking the zoneId sent by the client can be reproduced.

Billiard · Jan 14, 2008, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Ignorance of the consequences of your actions or ignorance of the law rarely gets you out of trouble when you break the law.

"I didn't know she was not 18" or "I didn't know they were not 21" will still get you tossed in jail for statutory rape or serving alcohol to minors, no matter how nice of a person you are or how genuine you are in your ignorance.

"I didn't know speeding in a construction zone was doubled fines" is still going to yield you a double fine, even though you were unaware of the severity of the punishment as you broke the law.

Do you get warnings that the police are going to check your speed with radar? Sometimes, sometimes not. If you break a law, even if you are not aware of the law, gets you in trouble. Often times this can be very severe, especially in other countries and cultures.

As I mentioned before, 117 people being banned is nothing compared to the overall population of GW, and I am sure they could have banned even more. In fact, they might even being monitoring some folks who might have been banned but were not, just to see who else they interact with and who they give some of their loot to. So when you say so and so was not banned but should have been, there might be very good reasons for that. With how long this has been supposedly going on, I would not be surprised if it ended up being a couple thousand people being banned, as they track down alts and mules and such.

Naughty Zoot · Jan 14, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

Ignorance of the consequences of your actions or ignorance of the law rarely gets you out of trouble when you break the law.

"I didn't know she was not 18" or "I didn't know they were not 21" will still get you tossed in jail for statutory rape or serving alcohol to minors, no matter how nice of a person you are or how genuine you are in your ignorance.

"I didn't know speeding in a construction zone was doubled fines" is still going to yield you a double fine, even though you were unaware of the severity of the punishment as you broke the law.

Do you get warnings that the police are going to check your speed with radar? Sometimes, sometimes not. If you break a law, even if you are not aware of the law, gets you in trouble. Often times this can be very severe, especially in other countries and cultures.

I agree that, although ignorance may be a reason, it is not an excuse. However, as you are well aware, there are varying degrees of punishment. In my opinion, a visit to the hidden outpost or even farming Mallyx a couple of times does not warrant a permanent ban (given what I have stated previously). I'm sure that others feel that a permanent ban is justified based on the severity of the purported hack. As I said, I don't have all the facts.

The reason I raise the point of ignorance is that there seems to be a slight discrepancy between "the bar was set higher than a one-time or even few-time occurrence, as the Dev Update states, to avoid banning someone who was pulled there inadvertently" and what some forum members are saying they were banned for. Although we don't always give credit to ArenaNet when it's due (and yes, they do make mistakes from time to time), I do think they care about their player base, both those GW players who want to see justice served and those who are pleading innocence. It's a difficult balance to strike.

(Also, I think its worthwhile keeping this particular 'crime' in context. Although I appreciate the point you are making, statutory rape or serving alcohol to minors, I think you would agree, fall within a slightly different category!)

danshep · Jan 15, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

leprekan has made some good points and i suppourt him cos i was one of the 117 banned well it should be 116 cos 2 accounts were mine. What i dont understand is that Anet have known about this exploit for 6 months now. So from wat i can see is they waited for more to find it then banned them also saying a hack was used it total crap you could get there by using the guide that leprekan showed i went in my accedient and i tested it out 2 times to see what is was and that is it.

myrealnameismatt · Jan 15, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I think any more discussion of this is almost totally pointless.
We aren't going to get our accounts back no matter what we do.

Incorrect assumptions have been made by the "powers that be" and by the posters here as to the nature of all this, and the people involved : i.e we're all terrible people who go around hacking, commiting a vast array of crimes varying from shoplifting, stealing cars, driving said cars too fast and then blaming it all on the next person. Believe what you will.

All we can do is give our side of the story, which some people (the important ones that might be in a position to actually do something to help) are never going to believe.

The hammer is down. The black cap is on. Accounts are gone.

It seems that most people believe this is a drop in the ocean, 117 people really aren't that many. Good riddance etc etc. I remind you that a community is made up of individuals, some are more prominent and active than others. The type of person who got dragged into this (I really do think that is the correct verb to use, as the nature of the exploit meant it was passed from person to person and didn't involve having to have a hacker in the party) were the type of people who had pretty much seen every last corner of the game from start to finish, the type of people who actively contributed a great deal to the virtual communities with which they were associated with. The knock-on effect to the community at large, the guild wars economy and the enjoyment of many player's game time are going to be far-reaching and will echo on.

On a personal level, I thank the game designers for making such a great product. It kept us hooked for so long and would have probably kept on giving us a great deal of entertainment. £100 or so really isn't much to pay for so many hours of entertainment. Although a great leap up from the MUD's of old, MMO's are still in their infancy. Guildwars is most definately a front runner in many aspects.. lacking in others ofc - but that is to be expected.
Nothing this new is ever perfect. The one thing I think they have got right is the ability to draw people in, encouraging players to play more and achieve more, in their virtual world. In retrospect I see that these achievements are quite meaningless. That they are merely badges people wear to mark them as addicts, that one guy has more time to waste than another. I do hope some day that it will be easier to balance real life with games, I know that a good number of people can 't seem to be able to (me included) and when the world is too much to cope with they run towards their well controlled fantasy world where almost everything you do is rewarded somehow.

Looking after the player's state of mind and discouraging them from total immersion in a virtual world, is the responsibility of the player. I do feel however, that game designers could do more to help. I do not have the exact figures but, I believe 50% of mmo players, when asked, said that they were addicted to their game.

Guildwars, for many, is an obsession, an addiction. Losing a guildwars account that has been tended to for a very long period of time feels like going cold-turkey. I think this goes some way to explain why some people feel so vehemently that they were wronged and are willing to go to great lengths to try to reverse the situation, even talking about actual litigation or thinking of ways to exact revenge on the world which has spurned them. The observer may feel that they are going way too far and feel little empathy towards the person involved.

The only real conclusions that can be drawn from this is that there are no conclusions. This, in itself, is the worrying thing. It's our word against their word, as no hard evidence has been presented to the community at large, and for security reasons / reasons of saving face, never will be.

I, for one can not really be bothered to spend any more time discussing it. I know the friends i've made in the game will remain friends, and that was really the only reason to play.

I will say to the people left behind, be wary of the amount of time you spend playing and try not to get dragged in. It is, after all, just a game.

Commander Ryker · Jan 15, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Good post Matt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by myrealnameismatt

I think any more discussion of this is almost totally pointless.
We aren't going to get our accounts back no matter what we do.

I agree. It's all been said and denied and said again. It's time to stop beating this dead horse and just lay it to rest.