Curse

dargon · Jan 11, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by rath no more

i dont know anything about this personally but i thought i heard here that that exploit lets you get past the other 4? and your fighting cronies with duncan? not so diff after all if what i heard was true.

When EotN was released, yes this was true, so long as 1 in the party person had beaten the first 4 parts, everyone could go play with Duncan. Now I can't say I've read all 46 pages of this thread (about 1/2 of them) but I'm of mixed opinion on who should have been banned. I definitely believe that the ban stick was warranted, I'm just not 100% certain they needed to ban as many as they did. However, ignorance of ____ is not an excuse, hell we've got an integrated wiki that we can use to look things up, and it's usually pretty accurate. I don't know about everyone else, but I like to have a rough idea of what I'm getting into when I go into an area. People saying that they should have known because there wasn't an outpost on their map, well, I hate to break it to you, the start for the deep or urgoz also don't show up on the map. I don't have a problem with ANet leaving hidden test rooms in the game, but perhaps in future name such an outpost something along the lines of Developer Test Room for Domain of Anguish so that people can't claim ignorance, I know I'd be going 'uuuh what?' if I got zoned to an outpost that was named like that.

Rift · Jan 11, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Denial > Anger/Resentment > Bargaining > Depression > Acceptance

What stage are you in?

The quicker you all accept that what you did was wrong, the quicker youc an all go on with your lives.

Perm bans fit the crime, otherwise the true exploiters would have no deterrent to exploit again if all they had to lose are some items.

lyra_song · Jan 11, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venus Anu

Error in the programing.... should not be a permanent ban.
Punishment Yes, people knew what they were doing. Permanent Ban NO.

Just like the mapping to unopened areas on the map, /reisgn didn't type itself. No one was punished for that.

Only because many many more people did it than the mallyx exploit.

SolidShadow · Jan 11, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Error in the programing.... should not be a permanent ban.
Punishment Yes, people knew what they were doing. Permanent Ban NO.

wise words ty for that

Jake_Steel · Jan 11, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoticimajar

isn't it after two minutse you can come back into the game this we are not allowed back in until...oh wait never...

Different games, different penalties. It's not like the rules were changed for this, banning is still the coin of the realm for transgressors.

Yichi · Jan 11, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoticimajar

quite the same though allowed access to a part you shouldn't be at until you finished the other areas this just had a bit of greater benfit

I have blatently said that both were an exploit that players should not have had access to. In what part did I ever say the Duncan run wasn't an exploit?

I did however say ask in which other area did you map to a town that put you DIRECTLY into a fight with the end boss as soon as you left it as a proof of you knowing that this was an anomoly that if not a common occurance anywhere else in the game, should have been a red flag to anyone using it. And so far, you have still failed to provide an adequate answer to my origional question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoticimajar

incase of possible hack/mod don't put an enter mission button if you don't want people to ever be able to use it again nothing is safe someone can always get around something

The devs put the enter mission button there, so they themselves could go into the area to find ways to adjust Mallyx as they needed too with possible skill balances/tweaks to ai/etc. they make throughout the game. I am sure that there are probably more areas/towns/whatever that we as a community are not aware of because of the fact that they are for developer access only. Does that mean that you and your friends should have access to those too?

Clait · Jan 11, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by I pwnd U

Why should ANet break down and give back the 117 people who explictly used the exploit? It was a breach in the EULA and worthy of a perma-ban. If Anet unbanned these 117 players it's going to give other players the idea that they can use Exploits and hacks and get away with it if they QQ enough. Anet did the right thing and people who used the exploit explictly should stay banned.

The point is they are unable to be consistent with bans. Nor are they willing to admit the standard they use to ban people. They ban people. Then they don't ban people for a similar offense.

leprekan · Jan 11, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

The Duncan ferry was in it from the start of the game (technically, this too, but..you know), was pretty obvious and well known and most importantly, DID NOT require you to jump through hoops to get to an outpost that was never mentioned nor shows up on any map.

88k per hour vs losing all that money AND my account.
Though choice...I think I'll keep my account and make money in a way that doesn't exploit the game.

LOL. There weren't any hoops to jump through. It was a straight forward ferry. Only "hoop" would be people having to grab the quest again because it was not auto loaded like Duncan.

Those thinking you went straight to Mallyx .. you didn't. Still had to fight the 16 waves before the doors were unlocked. AKA no different than Duncan.

rath no more · Jan 11, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

When EotN was released, yes this was true, so long as 1 in the party person had beaten the first 4 parts, everyone could go play with Duncan. Now I can't say I've read all 46 pages of this thread (about 1/2 of them) but I'm of mixed opinion on who should have been banned. I definitely believe that the ban stick was warranted, I'm just not 100% certain they needed to ban as many as they did. However, ignorance of ____ is not an excuse, hell we've got an integrated wiki that we can use to look things up, and it's usually pretty accurate. I don't know about everyone else, but I like to have a rough idea of what I'm getting into when I go into an area. People saying that they should have known because there wasn't an outpost on their map, well, I hate to break it to you, the start for the deep or urgoz also don't show up on the map. I don't have a problem with ANet leaving hidden test rooms in the game, but perhaps in future name such an outpost something along the lines of Developer Test Room for Domain of Anguish so that people can't claim ignorance, I know I'd be going 'uuuh what?' if I got zoned to an outpost that was named like that.

yes i do agree there for sure. when i heard talk of a hack i was just like no way. if i woulda known that i woulda never ever went near doa again. im not trying to sugar coat anything when i went there atfirst i was totaly like wth.. but it was fun and i sure in the hell didnt think i was gonna lose my account permanently heh but like i said its thier game no biggy.

MetalMan · Jan 11, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

I've read a lot of the posts here and i have to say a few things....

1. I'm DISGUSTED at how nearly all of you are reacting to the people drawn into this. I'm not saying they weren't to blame - quite the contrary, i'm saying that they were pulled into something and curiosity led them to continue and do something they wouldn't have the chance to do normally. That doesn't call for the rudeness i've seen in several posts, towards the parties involved.

2. I believe this is both the players fault and Anets fault. I've been heavily involved in the coding of a game my mates creating, and it is tricky to keep everything under check... but they could have had more security on the files to not allow access to special areas. But why was the area still there? Wouldn't it be easier to have, almost, "Administrator" districts...? I do believe that they should have removed the outpost once the final product was released, but live and learn... maybe.

3. I believe, personally, that if the parties involved in this case can give enough evidence that they themselves did not hack, then they should be unbanned... yes, i know, they did breach the EULA agreement, but MANY of us took advantage of the recent "go anywhere you like" glitch. Maybe they did make some cash out of it, some people did from the teleport glitch... they are in the same boat. Made money from a hack/bug. But the teleport-money makers haven't been banned... why should these? Only the hackers themselves should be condemned.

I pwnd U · Jan 11, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clait

The point is they are unable to be consistent with bans. Nor are they willing to admit the standard they use to ban people. They ban people. Then they don't ban people for a similar offense.

Each situation is unique and has different consequences. You can't set a bar for something that varies as much as these exploits do.

Yichi · Jan 11, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoticimajar

....an armbrace in 3 hours....

This didn't tip you off that what you were doing was taking advantage of an exploit when the full run by doing it normally takes over 2 and doesn't yield anything even close to an armbrace by gemset value?

I'm sorry but ignorance isn't an excuse with this as it would have taken a total of 2 minutes max to find out that this wasn't supposed to be there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Those thinking you went straight to Mallyx .. you didn't. Still had to fight the 16 waves before the doors were unlocked. AKA no different than Duncan.

The point in being that it should have tipped something as being wrong when to previously get to Mallyx you had to have all 4 previous quests done, not press a button and go directly into the final room to fight his waves/mallyx

leprekan · Jan 11, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

This didn't tip you off that what you were doing was taking advantage of an exploit when the full run by doing it normally takes over 2 and doesn't yield anything even close to an armbrace by gemset value?

I'm sorry but ignorance isn't an excuse with this as it would have taken a total of 2 minutes max to find out that this wasn't supposed to be there.

A typical run took 20 minutes or more AKA much longer than 3 hours to make an armbrace.

Chaotic moved to wow before he was even banned so try to take that into account .. he is bragging and stirring because he doesn't care if he gets his account back.

Rexion · Jan 11, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Yesterday, Gaile Gray informed us that 117+ people were banned due to using an exploit that would bring them to "The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx". This outpost is used as followed:

Quote:

Hidden outposts are used by the developers to move quickly to a specific part of the game.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hidden_outpost

Players found out about this "hidden outpost" because someone stumbled upon it. ANet never released information about a "hidden outpost" being used for Mallyx. All that we know, as Gail Gray states, about the outpost is that it was used for testing by the Dev Team and was used by players as a quick way to kill Mallyx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

From that outpost, they could travel directly into the room containing Mallyx, the final boss in the Domain of Anguish.

This hidden outpost existed strictly for testing purposes and was never accessible through normal play. Only by hacking the client, or partying with someone who had done so, could a player access that outpost.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile...0_January_2008

The only problem is, there was no information about this hidden outpost. ANet has never stated saying there is/was such thing as "The Ebony Citidal of Mallyx". All we know about it is that it is part of the Lore from Guild Wars history - just some random scenary. Yes it is where you fight Mallyx, but we never knew that it was an actual outpost.

The main point here is: No one knew about this "hidden outpost", so why are there 117 people that have someone managed to go into it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We eliminated the exploit with a build today. We also conducted a detailed investigation into who accessed this exploit and other hidden outposts.

If these outposts are "oh-so" hidden, then why do people know about them? Did ANet let this information out for a reason?

----back on topic----

Why were these 117 people banned for doing an exploit that "required a 3rd party program" to access. I, personally, think that there was no hack involved. If you recall back from the Guild Hall exploit related Pre-Searing, people could go anywhere no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Back in 2006, there was a guild hall glitch that allowed some players to bring Post-Searing items into Pre-Searing. More recently, a few items appeared in Pre-Searing due to a different, short-term bug.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile...0_January_2008

These players were not banned for bringing items into Pre-Searing. No one said they could not before hand. It was ANet's job to fix this when the problem was created - not wait and allow there to be hundreds of tomes and skills from Post-Searing be allowed in Pre-Searing. Even though Gaile stated that they required people to immediatly move their characters to Post-Searing, they still didn't do anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In the case of the recent issue, we investigated and dealt with the majority of the items and accounts individually. In the case of the earlier guild hall glitch, we chose not to research accounts individually.

I must also mention, that Gaile contradicted herself in her community report. She stated that they "dealt with the accounts". Either that means the accounts as in occurences, or the accounts as in player accounts. Did ANet ban for having an item in Pre-Searing that wasn't supposed to be there, when it was ANet's fault to begin with?

Lets go to another case where Gaile stated that an exploit was against EULA and could be bannable, but no action against it happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by † LãwLiþøþ™ †

owned. everyone in Kamadan d1 saw it.

Nice job Gaile!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

That was in many districts across a few territories. I stopped and chatted with players in some districts, but for the most part, I waited to see if the exploit was being promoted, and if it was, I posted that or a similar message.

I don't want to be or sound like I'm a mean person. I just want to let people know that if they use an exploit, they may get a block or ban on their account. I don't really know right now what will happen to those who use this exploit, who promote its use, or who profit from it. Maybe nothing will happen at all. But with Wintersday just two days away, I want players to think about it a bit, about what they might be doing or might be tempted to do, so that they don't risk losing access to one of the best days of the game year.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...18#post3490618

Gaile stated that people advertising/using ferries were exploiting, and they could be get a block or ban on their account. I have many friends that ferry, and I completely disagree with them, but nothing has happened to them. Ferrying happens all over Guild Wars, but nothing happens.

Quote:

Fixed a bug that gave players premature access to an area they hadn't previously visited.
http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/

ANet said on their Game Updates page that ferrying has been stopped, but why are there still many ferries going on?

Ferrying is considered an exploit by ANet, or atleast that is what Gaile has told us.

Quote:

As players may have noted, we took action to close a game exploit today. We would like to remind players that the willful use of exploits is against the EULA and the Rules of Conduct. Several players who used the exploit have had their Guild Wars accounts permanently banned.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/GuildWa..._news/20050617

With that statement from ANet, why is ferrying still going on?

Can't forget to mention that:
- Abusing game exploits
- Advertising cheats, hacks, and exploits
are against EULA. Abusing the game exploits would be using ferries to make money. Advertising cheats, hacks, and exploits would be saying in local that you are "ferrying to Consulate for 500g".
So why does ANet still allow Ferrying to continue, but ban these 117 people for going to "The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx". They left the outpost in the game and somehow allowed information to be spread.

Also, there are still thousands of Bots on starting islands and in Pre-Searing. ANet has stated in both a News Article and in EULA that Botting is unallowed.

Quote:

In-game infractions:
...
Using, developing, releasing or promoting a "bot" program
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Account_mark

Quote:

Bots Banned

In order to maintain a solid game economy, we constantly monitor the game for the use of cheats and exploits. Over the course of the last week, we banned more than 4,000 accounts of players using "bot" programs intended to mine the game for gold and items. The use of such programs is strictly against our User Agreement, and their use can have a negative effect on the game's economy and on all players who play the game legitimately. We will remain diligent on the matter of bot use, and will continue to take action against those accounts involved in such use.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/GuildWa..._news/20060706

Quote:

Bots Banned

As part of our continuing promise to keep Guild Wars free of hacks, cheats, and other exploits, we closed the accounts of more than 100 users of in-game "bots" today. Bots are against the EULA and the Rules of Conduct, and we will continue to remove players from the game if they engage in the use of such programs.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/GuildWa..._news/20050607

Quote:

You may not use any third-party program (such as a "bot") in order to automate gameplay functions, including playing, chatting, interacting, or gathering gold or items within Guild Wars. You may not assist, relay, or store gold or items for other players who are using these processes.
http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php

All of these state that Botting is against the game play, but still it continues. And using botting program is using a 3rd party program -- also known as a "hack".

So to sum it all up:

ANet should stop worrying about a few 117 people when there are thousands, upon thousands, of people doing other infractions. 116 of the people were not hacking, they were just associated with the hack that was created by the one original person.
ANet left "The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx" outpost in Guild Wars for test use, but someone managed to allow information about it to get into the public. This caused that 1 person to hack it and drag 116+ people into a permanent ban along with them.

Rexion

Yichi · Jan 11, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

A typical run took 20 minutes or more AKA much longer than 3 hours to make an armbrace.

Exactically the point. If this is out of the ordinary and the ordinary is common knowledge, than these players clearly exploited this fact and the punishment is justified by the EULA that each of the players agreed too when installing/signing up for guildwars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Chaotic moved to wow before he was even banned so try to take that into account .. he is bragging and stirring because he doesn't care if he gets his account back.

This has nothing to do with anything posted in this thread. Why should I take into account that he plays a different game, when the game he doesn't play is the game I'm commenting on?

Puritans Aid · Jan 11, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

people who think it wasnt a big deal oh ONLY 117 players, are forgetting one thing

these are the 117 players out of maybe 500.. who play EVERYDAY! not once a week, who help everyone out, who do this and that. . If you have a green weapon, or a gold chaos axe, this 117 made them cheap enough for you to even think of having one, by farming them.

If you guys know Why Puritan Why, or Puritans AID, its because I ran you from Beacons Perch to Droks for free 1000 times. Its because I Ran you from Lions Arch to Sanctum cay, thru sanctum cay, thru desert tour, and thru elonas reach, for free. I ran you from Ascalon to beacons, for free. 1000 times..

If you know me from Paladin Puritan, or Puritan pwnz uz, you know me from Me teaching you to 600, for free, teaching you to smite for a 600 for free, running FOW, or UW on my dollar, for you for free.. You know me for running COF 1000 times for you, for free. You know me for give you money, healing for you when you needed a hard mission + bonus.

Some of you know me for me running a bonus in the desert thats very very hard normally, but i use a glitch, where heroes who cant come to you, when unflagged and your far from them, suddenly appear beside you. bAN ME FOR helping people, fine, but call it what it is.

I do all these things for free. on a daily basis. I ferry people accross into char land in pre for free. I play pre with anyone who wants to anytime.

I farm DOA, UW, FOW, COF, HOTSP = heart of the shiverpeaks ETC ETC ET all the time, for people for fre.e I showed everyone how to 55 strong roots in hard mode, and get a nice sheild .. for free.

I can log in and show you anything you want, for free, have and will always.

So ban my account becuase I was to stupid to know it wasnt part of the game.

over 1 million people are affected by this 117. it is a big deal.

PST BTW, the bottom missoin in crystlaine desert? the one where the ghostly heroe does his ritual while you defend him? in hard mode its nearly impossible to go into the 3 bosses areas and kill them normal way. Leave ghostly at the gate so he doesnt start timer. Take necrodic traversal, a long bow, and 3 heroes.. I prefer 3 necros, but its up 2 u. maybe a monk and mm, and a ele. Anyway, necrodic traversal yourself accross the wall. Run far far away from there.. hereoes BAm pop up beside you.

I dont exploit it for personal gain. I do it for free for anyone who wants a title.

Im already banned so this wont hurt me right?

GG a net.

GG guys. Have fun

~ Dan ~ · Jan 11, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

3. I believe, personally, that if the parties involved in this case can give enough evidence that they themselves did not hack, then they should be unbanned...

Why? This is just like saying "Go ahead kids, find another exploit. If you get caught, you'll only get a slap on the wrists and a 1 day ban. If you don't, wahey - you're living a life of pixelated luxury.

Venus Anu · Jan 11, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by myrealnameismatt

I for one am feeling pretty damn remorseful. Spent ^5000 hrs playing (1/2 of that generally helping people who didn't know much about the game) - spent hmm lets see 4hrs to get a torment shield (ooh pretty) and bang, character with 25, going on 30 max titles shot in the head. I mean -= pretty dumb really as I had more than enough money to just grab one I guess.
Still - i'm pretty philosophical about this sort of thing. It is only a game after all. I'm going to miss the people I played with ofc - but there are other games.

Internet scrabble anyone?

By making one mistake a fantastic PERSON and player like this guy here will no longer be among the friends he made here.

Sure he could start all over.... but would you?

This thread has ridiculous flamers quoting UA stuff. Not everything is black and white. Taking the ferry was a mistake... but it was a ferry and no one was banned for the other ferries.
Permanent Bans are to harsh for these people.

Arkantos · Jan 11, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Gaile stated that people advertising/using ferries were exploiting, and they could be get a block or ban on their account. I have many friends that ferry, and I completely disagree with them, but nothing has happened to them. Ferrying happens all over Guild Wars, but nothing happens.

When she said "ferry to anywhere" she meant it quite literally. She said that when the access any outpost exploit was happening. Ferrying is not an exploit, ferrying via this guild hall bug was.

~ Dan ~ · Jan 11, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venus Anu

Permanent Bans are to harsh for these people.

Atleast he has accepted it was his fault, not Anet's. He knows what he did was wrong, and so should still be banned.