Curse

Yang Whirlwind · Jan 18, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

No player to player trade
Reason: Finding bargains or suckers relies on luck and factors outside the game environment.

The player to player trading is something ArenaNet have always claimed to encourage. Personally I have traded back and forth ever since I entered the game. No saying your argument doesn't have value, but I would not have disallowed it for this experiment myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Before starting this experiment, I firmly believed that playing normally gave nowhere near enough gold to equip a character with the basics needed to play, but after I’ll freely admit that that stance is wrong. By the same token, I still believe that saying a player can get everything they need by playing normally is also incorrect, and that the truth lies somewhere between.

Without having done a similar experiment myself, it is my firm belief that "noobs" have it much easier now than when I started playing the game.
Took me many months before I had a max 15^50 for my warrior fx.
Sure the heroes are "money sinks" (as I suspect they were meant to be), but the accessability of perfect or near ferfect items for next to no-price balances it out imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If pressed for a new thesis statement, I would say that playing normally provides more than enough gold to fund an established character, but significant amount of farming or borrowing would be required to establish a new one.

I do not agree with this,- you probably didn't settle for having imperfect items and thus created more expenses for yourself. I'll bet you got the best runes too,- spare no expense! I didn't even get a Major Vigor on my first character until some time after I reached level 20.
Furthermore you admit that you took the fastest route through the game - a true noob wouldn't do that,- failing and trying again would earn him more drops and make him more money on each level. This would leave him more funds available whenever he got access to better armor etc.

Thanks for a nice thread,- interesting and invoking quite a bit of nostalgia, even if I do not agree with all your results!

Crom The Pale · Jan 18, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

I have done this with almost every char I've ever made.

Its a simple matter to level a new char up to 20 without ever opening storage and have him fully equiped with max armor and weapons.

Now at that point if you want better skins for your armor/weapons then you have to farm for cash.

I upgrade my armor via collectors up until I can purchase max armor wich costs under 10K for a full set.

Max collector weapons/offhands work just fine, when good drops happen to come my way I aquire mods to improve them.
A max item with at least one perfect mod can be crafted for 5K + materials wich are extremely easy to comeby.

So for under 20K I can have a new char fully equiped with max armor/weapons and I can earn 20K before I'm lvl 20 just by playing the game and not spending cash but by using collectors.

Amy Awien · Jan 18, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

I'd first want to congratulate and thank cellardwellar for his efforts and results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupid Shizno

im sure if you oppted to not upgrade armor and continue in game, you would not be in debt, yet find your seling being a hassle to yourself or pug/guild groups.

Not at all, as many others I've managed fine throughout Prophecies - and the later campaigns - without any farming. And that in a time when runes, weapons and armor were more expensive then they are now and with a character that was created from scratch, with nothing else on the account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with playing under-equipped is that there is no line in the sand you can draw as to what is appropriately equipped means.

There is, you choose the line you use, but there are different lines one can draw, one could for instance skip the armorer that doesn't offer armor at least +10 AL better then the one you have. Or one could get collectors gear.

The choice of runes is another part where you can save substantially, major runes are usually far cheaper then minor and superiors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karia Mirniman

Newer players do not have past experience to tell them what to do. Many players put superior runes on everything; believe that max weapons and armours are a necessity, buy keys and every useless skill available. And don't forget skills increase in cost the more that are bought.

They have brains, supposedly, and basic math skills, it shouldn't take anyone more then a few keys (looted) to realize that selling them yields more money then using them, let alone buying keys.

Prophecies has skill-quests to obtain most available skills, Factions and Nightfall offer higher rewards to pay for the skills that aren't given and thus they allow players to choose only the needed skills.

Quote:

Far too many players understand that loot scaling is damaging Guild Wars.

They 'understand' wrong, loot-scaling has lowered the prices and is beneficial to the casual players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

... As far as time spent goes, that's more of an issue for farmers, not newbies playing through the first time.

No-no, that's not true, I enjoy playing more then I enjoy trading, has always been like that. I can't be bothered to stand around for hours trying to sell some gold item.

Raku Clayman · Jan 18, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

One of the things that makes this game great is the different ways to play it, which includes the economic aspect of the game. Some people actually play the game, like Monopoly. Their goal is to max out their income and collect rare items. They aren't interested to Titles or even finishing all the quests and missions. To them, that is "normal." I got my degree in Economics and have always been fascinated by the "free market" aspect of the game. The price of an item is truly the price where the buyer and seller come together in agreement. Also, I love the fact that prices for items change based on demand and perceived rarity, better known as "supply and demand." Greens, for example, will always have the highest price in the beginning, but, as more and more of these items drop, the prices go down.

But, I bring this up only to make a point. It was obvious to me that by the time I got to Drok's, and had all my slots filled with 250 of each material item that I may need to craft armor and weapons, that I could sell them to other players at twice what the material trader was offering and could buy them for 2/3 of the price the material trader charged. This was too great s discrepancy to ignore even for the noob player that I was. I was a noob because it was my first character in the first installment of the game(Prophesies).

ValaOfTheFens · Jan 18, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

This experiment would be more relevant if you'd done it in Prophecies. Nightfall is probably the easiest game to equip characters with only a little money. I know you did it for the heroes(I can't believe how much you spent on them) but since Prophecies is the cheapest of the GW games its the one most people start out playing.

Jetdoc · Jan 18, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

[*]Always use equipment of a level appropriate for the area.
Reason: While many parts of the game are easily completed with substandard equipment, it does not reflect the difficulty or rewards of the game as designed. This does not include any vanity items. Pickup/collector items should be used when they function as well as the crafter equipment, and only when they don’t should items/armour be crafted.

Early on in the experiment, I found myself unable to continue without breaking at least one of the rules I had set for myself. I had completed the Istan area and yet did not have enough resources to obtain collector/crafter level equipment or runes/insignias

Whist 46k might seem like a lot of debt, most of the expenses were frontloaded due to the costs of setting up heroes, getting armour sets and whatnot. The amount of debt was definitely going down fast towards the end of the game, and if I had taken the character into Factions it would have disappeared very quickly.

Honestly, I would love to see a detailed description of the various items you purchased during the experiment (I'm at work and cannot access your link). If I had to guess, by the time you completed Nightfall:

1. Every single one of your heroes was completely runed, insignia'd, and had max weapons and shields/focuses.
2. You had most skills for your primary and secondary professions purchased.
3. You had purchased (i.e. not collectors) every set of armor along the way to Consulate Docks.
4. None of your heroes (or your character) were using collector's weapons.

Now, convert that to what you "need" to be a fully functional player that can easily complete Nightfall...

1. Consulate Docks armor, and that's it.
2. Bare minimum runes on your 4-5 primary heroes.
3. Collector's items for everyone.
4. 25 or so skills. You just need to be selective on what you need to purchase to achieve the build(s) you are running.

Total cost for all of that is nowhere near 46K, and that's assuming that you didn't make a dime during all of your travels. Using JUST the quest and mission rewards (including redeeming your commendations, etc. for their full value), you will generate income of over 50K. So, in total, your total expenditures ran in excess of 100K - which I find very hard to believe is commensurate with "what you needed".

Talon one · Jan 18, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Acolyte Sousuke
Rune of Superiour Fire Magic
Rune of Minor Energy Storage
Rune of Major Vigor
2x Rune of Vitae
5x Blessed Insignia

Olias
Rune of Superiour Death Magic
Rune of Minor Soul Reaping
Rune of Minor Blood Magic
Rune of Major Vigor
Rune of Attunement
5x Radiant Insignia

thats what you call 'basic equipment'? :O

i spend 100g-1000g max on a new hero (for a major rune of their main attribute), maybe a few more when i enter a dangerous endgame area, but i never give them vigor runes (unless i find them on the way)

Coridan · Jan 18, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

this is a pretty good thread...and alot of effort went into your experiment. I do believe it is easier now for a new player to start and equip themselves..

I personally feel you went a little over board on equipping your heros...as most new players will just put what they find on thier heros..and upgrade them as they get better drops. You said you were in debt 45k roughly...i would imagine if you figured up how much you spent completely on your heros...instead of just giving them your drops...you would be breaking close to even on the cash.
As for your character...i doubt many new players would spend 15k on a superior vigor...that is a luxury item..and 9 hps isn't really that needed in PVE...the major would be bought by the majority of players.

lyra_song · Jan 18, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Holy crap your heroes are loaded!!!!

Ive never spent one single gold piece on hero equipment. And I've never had a problem with ANYTHING in this game.

Runes, weapons etc are all from drops/leftovers.

Why dont you remove them from the equation if this is really about "BASIC" gameplay?

pygar · Jan 18, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

You probably can be very minimal and get by on "normal" treasure and get through the game, but thats not my approach on it. I like to give my heroes good equipment, much like the OP...Also like to buy lots of skills because i am truly new (going on 3 months) and learning the game the first time. I also, of course like nice skins and other goodies.

Treasure is an important part of the fantasy RPG experience...... while you can "get by" on normal quests in GW for many that isn't quite enough, very counter intuitive for many people. GW does have the treasure close to right however- if they only boosted quests a little by giving more items (including runes and what not) and skills, especially in the beginning of the game beginner players wouldnt feel so stressed out about cash.

Rekiara Malevu · Jan 18, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I'd like to respond to this as one of the 'new players' that this experiment was intended to emulate.

I initially purchased Prophecies just after it came out - then installed it, played for an evening and uninstalled. Only recently, mid December, have I come back to the game. This time around, I purchased and began in Nightfall. Starting from scratch, with effectively zero knowledge of the game, I have played through most of the NF campaign and all of the original one. For reference, I played Nightfall up to the point where I could take the boat to Prophecies. Once there I did all of the missions and quests I could find. By the time I finished Prophecies, I had perfect weapons for all of my heroes, and completed 2/4 pieces of my first 15k armor set. Now, after going back to Nightfall, I've finished that armor set (including full upgrades) and have begun working on my next set. My heroes have most of the skills they need to be competent (still going after a few specific elites) and a couple of key runes on each.

I think, as an analysis on the cost to start from scratch, your work was fairly spot on - with one exception. You completely and totally over geared your heroes. To suggest that perfect runage (is that a word?) is intended for anyone new to the game it an exaggeration at best. The level of difficulty in the standard game is nowhere near high enough to make me think it was tuned for people to need that kind of equipment. As a new player who took the time to research useful hero builds and teams, I quickly came to realize that I could put zero runes and mediocre weapons on my team and still win in most of the game. Then, as more money came in later on, I have been easily upgrading my most used heroes (and still can't for the life of me imagine wasting a Sup. Vigor on an hero - I'll sell it and use the cash for myself).

As it stands now, I have completed Prophecies, and just finished the Ruins of Morah mission in Nightfall. My character is equipped with a fully modded set of 15k armor and has 6 heroes with suitably deep skillsets for any given occasion and profession specific mods to match. Most of my heroes have perfect weapons - I'm still picking up a few mods to make them truly 'perfect'. That said, I'm sitting on about 23k right now, and that number is only going up.

[DE] · Jan 18, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

I think to that to accurately represent how well a new player could get along in the current state of the game you need to play and buy things like a newb. This would mean not buying keys to try and get weapon mods, not buying heroes runes, etc. Most new players don't bother trying to upgrade their weapons and you'll usually find them running around with a badly modded blue sword. They also won't want to spend all their precious cash on heroes instead of themselves.

Basically the priorities of a new player differ greatly from those of an experienced player which is mainly why this experiment is flawed.

The Meth · Jan 18, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

You did a nice test, but the fact that you seem to NEED the absolute best most 100% efficient item and rune setups looks like it really increased the money you used. Fact is that even though collectors isn't the best its 99% as good as the best, so there is no reason to spend nearly 200k on equipping your character (Expenses total 191425). I don't think any player who is new to the game is going to buy high priced equipment just to get a damage boost on the order of .5%. You spent more then 4x what I have spent on my main character who has gone through all 3 campaigns and eotn in both normal and hard mode, I think you are really trying to exaggerate things here. Not to mention of course in Prophecies/Factions you don't even have to equip heroes, though you might have to scrape by on collectors armor for a while since you don't have much money by the time you get to the mainland in cantha. Prophecies should give you more then enough cash easily.

EDIT: You bought keys. Need I say more?

Taki · Jan 18, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

We could also make another calculation: Not how much money you spent, but how much you really need.
...
Your heroes are well equipped, and I think you are right, equipping them well should also be considered very important. But you have overdone there and totally skewed the result.

I agree with this.

I also had very different results on several new characters from NF/Factions. but will give my experience from NF for a better comparison.

I made three new PvE Paragons and one Ele for friends who wanted to try out/farm DoA but did not want to level them up or play through NF again. In each case I did not use their storage, did not trade, pretty much what the OP set out to do, since I was playing on other people's accounts. Basically I finished the game with 36 to 42k on all but the Ele, who had 2xK due to more builds, simpy by doing the following:

Only unlocked skills needed for a few builds, using hero points as needed, and faction in the case of a few hero elites/builds.
Used collector equip and salvaged inscriptions/mods
Only bought 1.5k armor when I had the money and materials
Besides a few cheap minor runes, outfitted heroes with whatever I found by playing through the campaign
Only farmed for drops for collectors/1.5k armor crafting materials/SS req
Only did required quests/hero unlocks and bonuses for most missions

All of those characters sucessfully beat NF, had a book of secrets in inventory to sell, and farmed DoA in a mostly human group (plus solo UW for Ele) without further modification from the lazy account owners almost immediately after I turned them over. They continued to do so until they had a gemset to try their luck with, after which they left DoA forever.

So it's quite easy for the experienced player to make more than enough money for all the necessities (max armor, max weapons, strong builds for different occassions) with only minimal farming, and money to spare. Newer players however, will have a much harder time just trying to come up with money as they have to fight a steep learning curve, inefficient heroes, loot scaling, and a serious skills debt.

If you want unnecessary vanity weapons or armor then you'll have to farm, power trade, or ebay gold but I've never seen a game where you didn't have to do at least one of those thing in order to get the luxory items. The problem in GW is that farming is a pretty shitty way to make money now (so I hear - don't farm personally) so buying golds from bots/ebay seems to be a much more attractive option.

Edit: The new player account on post#51 is what I was wondering about. I guess loot scaling isn't as bad as I thought it was and you can indeed make enough money just by playing through the campaigns.

Burst Cancel · Jan 18, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

It's easy to adapt the experiment to reflect whatever you think the baseline should be. If you think hero equipment is a luxury rather than a necessity, just cut the debt by the amount spent on heroes and you have the adjusted figure. That's why full disclosure in an experiment like this is useful.

I also don't understand all of the people who are sitting around going "but I could buy X without farming!" Personal anecdotes have no value in the face of hard data. If you'd actually bothered to record everything you did so other people could pick it apart and see if there were any anomalies (did you fail missions particularly often, thereby getting more drops? Did you get any particularly lucky drops? etc.), then your cute stories might actually hold some weight.

hippo942 · Jan 18, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

yep dont think your heroes need all that stuff not really requirment in most missions all mine havent got 1gld spent on them.

Nice study tho thought you would make more than that over the entire campaign maybe enough to buy a set of primeval armor or something

Perkunas · Jan 18, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Awhile back I was getting a little bored and decided to try some thing "different". I setup another account, bare bones, 4 character slot, Prophesies account. Starting from scratch to see how much difference "loot scaling" did make. Only difference between starting fresh now compared to 26 months ago, game experience.

I started a warrior, same as very first character, but instead of leaving pre at level 3 (oops), I stayed until level 8. I took 3k and quite a few materials to post, vs 30 something gold back when. I also had the Rin sword this time instead of the starter.

On first character, by the time I reached Yaks Bend, I had enough gold and materials to get armor, the same armor I was able to get in Ascalon City on my second "1st" character. Played the game in story line order on both, clearing all quests in each area as I went. When I reached Grotto on the 1st character, I was able to get the "Elite" Gladiator Armor, on the second "first", I didn't have the funds to do it, 25k+ shy.

I was hoping that game experience would at least let me match or even be better than first time through, but it seems the only place it helped was in the early stages, also getting bonuses first time through, and with fewer deaths.

PuGs are still there, but not like 2 years ago. Monk places were filled by people with hero monks in a lot of places. All in all, in my experience, it is harder to get ahead now, than 1 1/2 to 2 years ago.

Edit: Maybe "failing" missions first time through, making you go back 2 or 3 times added to the gold drops and item drops allowing for more to sell to merchant. Maybe "failing" isn't a "bad" thing?

Skyy High · Jan 19, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

I really don't think that fully outfitting every hero with full runes and insignias should be considered "playing normally". It's completely unnecessary; if you're H/H-ing the game (which I assumed you were) the henchies don't have any of that stuff, yet you get along just fine. Using any runes and insignias you find to trick out your heroes would be one thing; buying major vigors for each of them, and full runes, including attunements? Not needed, or "normal", at all. Especially considering the fact that you're not even going to be using all of your heroes...

What else what else....I think isolating yourself from players and ignoring market trends is another silly assumption to make. That's not "normal", that's turning the game into a single player game, which (despite many players' insistences to the contrary) it isn't. You should salvage things that get you feathers, granite, iron, and steel, and ID and merc everything else. Only salvaging things to get materials for your personal weapons and armor is wasting money, and shouldn't be considered "normal". It really doesn't take any effort at all to sell most materials; you have to go to cities occasionally, just check to see if anyone is buying in party search. Eventually, if it's a sought after material, you'll find someone.

Oh, and keys. They're a gold sink, not a source of mods. Players are a source of mods. And, yes, I think some level of interaction in towns (read: buying basic mods) should be considered "playing the game normally".

strcpy · Jan 19, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Awhile back I was getting a little bored and decided to try some thing "different". I setup another account, bare bones, 4 character slot, Prophesies account. Starting from scratch to see how much difference "loot scaling" did make. Only difference between starting fresh now compared to 26 months ago, game experience.

And nothing in your posts relates to loot scale at all - loot scale only affect smaller than max size parties. It will *only* affect your farmer (assuming you don't do some of the farming runs that use full groups). Unless you started after the addition of elite tomes (and I doubt that given what you are discussing) you couldn't have done much farming before reaching grotto simply because of the lack of the elites. You may have done some low level farming, but then as you note that didn't change a whole lot and 15k in low level prophecies farming is MANY MANY hours.

Quote:

Edit: Maybe "failing" missions first time through, making you go back 2 or 3 times added to the gold drops and item drops allowing for more to sell to merchant. Maybe "failing" isn't a "bad" thing?

Of course, going through a mission 3 times means 3 times the gold (assuming you die towards the very end of the mission) so, yes that would make a large difference.

Another is how much a new vs old player tends to explore. My Dervish purchased nearly a full set of vabbian on her go through Nightfall (I had enough for the set but preferred a different set of leggings). None of the other have come close to matching that nor have any even come close to having the % explored for the cartography title. This isn't totally fair as I expect (and did so from the beginning) to get an explorer and skill hunter title on her so she did much more than just "play".

However my second ever character (A smiting monk) was dropped when she made it to Hell's Precipice (due to an update killing the build), I kept her planning to eventually make a prot bond (and post nerf a prot spirit) farmer out of her, I didn't do that until factions and she has almost no play time after the initial in Tyria. She has, by far, the highest percentage of Tyria explored - around 10% more than any other. The next highest was the third Tyrian that did *all* the quests, this particular monk still has Galrath left and is no where close to emptying her quest list. This was well before exploration titles and was just the difference in what "normal" play meant.

I can't tell you how much difference in gold they made - the monk was the first one to the end game and pretty much initially funded the next who funded the next who, well, funded the next. I *can* say that she *should* have made considerably more simply because of how many more times she went through things and how much more she explored. About the only thing I can say I already have (she grew up during the height of the UW farming and the massive inflation that many here think was the absolute best time in GW - I know what a new player experienced then and it wasn't the honey and roses established people made it out to be).

Unless you made most of your money on your first character (who you were using for comparison) through farming then Loot Scale affected you as much as it did me - that is absolutely zero. It will be that way anytime one is comparing full parties as that did not change with loot scale.

You can't see me · Jan 19, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

I seriously don't think you need to buy anything for your heros. I performed a similar experiment on my paragon a while ago when I first created him, and found that giving my heros things I found along the way, such as runes on salvage items and crappy gold/purple drops here and there along with a green or two that I picked up was more than sufficiant. I have characters who have not given their heros a single thing, but in basic gameplay, I see hardly any difference between the two sets of heros. In non-basic gameplay, which to me includes some dungeons, elite areas and such, I wouldn't use heros anyway, but probably get a guilf group, which, a basic player is indeed encouraged to do through the game.

The experiment here, exactly as you did it, was to see if one player on his own could outfit all his heros and himself using no storage or players trades, and it failed. IMO, the heros are what made it fail, along with the Superior Vigor. Spending 9k more for 9 more hitpoints on an experiment that only allows you a tight budget, in my humble opinion, wouldn't provide accurate data.