Curse

Roland of Gilead · Jan 13, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Hi all,

I would like to ask around whether you guys would be interested in a tool to control you hero skill usage. I can (in fact, for personal use I already do) write a program that processes your key presses and turn them into mouse clicks on your hero control panels. That program would basically add two features to the GW client which I feel are missing, namely controling your heroes' skills and being able to use the Shift key, Alt key, etc., to create many more hotkeys. Your feedback would be welcome.

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

The only feedback I have is I am not sure a tool like that is allowed.

Squishy ftw · Jan 13, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

The only thing I'd love to see is heros moving out of the damn aoe already!

BTW, is that even allowed ?

Roland of Gilead · Jan 13, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I don't know if it's allowed, but I've posted that question on Gaile's wiki talk page.

edit: the reason I've posted this here was to see if there's even interest for such a tool.

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Its good you asked. If it is allowed, they are essentially shortcuts allowing more hotkeys, which would be handy as regards Heroes, although its right on the edge of automating some of the activities if taken only ever so much further in a chain of commands. I'd be curious to see what Gaile said.

edit: The reason I and so many others are very cautious is third party software use for the game is pretty much bannable territory. I'd stop using it pronto until you got your answer from Gaile. If she says ok (I'd be surprised) then maybe see if there is interest.

MagmaRed · Jan 13, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead

Hi all,

I would like to ask around whether you guys would be interested in a tool to control you hero skill usage. I can (in fact, for personal use I already do) write a program that processes your key presses and turn them into mouse clicks on your hero control panels. That program would basically add two features to the GW client which I feel are missing, namely controling your heroes' skills and being able to use the Shift key, Alt key, etc., to create many more hotkeys. Your feedback would be welcome.

3rd party program, bannable abuse of the EULA, beware your account may get banned.

Roland of Gilead · Jan 13, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Honestly I would rather not be involved in a discussion about legality unless coming from an official source, because the tool I propose does not act automatically, and thus the question of "automated play or not" is no easily answered IMHO. Even a mouseclick simulator to reach the Incorrigible Ale Hound is more automated than my program would be. I'll keep you updated on the legality if Gaile doesn't post here directly, but for now, assuming the tool was legal, would you like to try it out?

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Meh. Use of a mouseclick simulator to max the Drunkard title should result in a ban for someone who used it, imho. I in fact would have assumed this to be already the case, but you're implying that slides by under the radar, which has me wondering just what other things are going on out there.

No comment from me if I wish to use third party software under any assumptions, but I will meet you halfway and say were Anet to introduce a way to add some more shortcuts for use for Heroes, sure, that would be handy. That might include Gaile approving your project.

edit: The more I think about it, I cant even meet you halfway, but that's just me. The first thing that comes to mind for me with "heroes and hotkeys" is chaining a set of hotkeys with one master hotkey. Even if that isnt your intent, its the first thing most anyone would try to do, unless there was a built in limitation of some sort. Seems like a can of worms to me. See what Gaile says and then gauge interest if its ok'd is my opinion.

Roland of Gilead · Jan 13, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Aera: The drunkard bot does kind of slide under the radar. Gaile wrote on http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:...g_questions...

Quote:

"The Drunkard bot is not as pernicious a botting for gold, but it's still a block-able offense. (...) I would even go so far as to say that it is not a high priority to catch such a person."

So I didn't want to say that my tool would fly under the radar or that it wouldn't be a bannable offense. What I did want to say is that ANet does differentiate between "levels of evilness" of such tools that directly modify or automate gameplay. Since my tool does the same as the game already does (translating single keystrokes into single game actions, for example activating skills) and nothing else, I hope for an approval from ANet.

Mercury Angel · Jan 13, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Games like City of Heroes and World of Warcraft allow these kind of macros, because they're for convenience rather than automated gameplay.
Not going to mean that Anet will decide it's fine to use, but the point is, don't let actual bots and macros designed to play the game for you prejudice you against this.

An example function I'd imagine would be being able to assign pet Attack, Guard, and Heel modes to 9, 0, -. Nothing you couldn't do with a mouse, but much faster if you're already playing with the 1-8 hotkeys for skills.

Similarly, hotkeying some important hero skills would be great. Lock the heroes out of naturally using say, enchantment removal, and map them to 9, 0, and -, and there you go. It's ready when you need it, and you use it more organically than having 3 hero windows open and mousing over them to hit it.

Roland of Gilead · Jan 13, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Thank for the support. I take it from a hardcore WoW player living next to me that fully automated and of course bannable bots have been written with nothing but the modding/macro tools Blizzard provides for WoW, and the UI modding scene for WoW is, quite frankly, insane. They have hundreds of tools and widgets and info screens to give players willing to install them a huge edge in PvE and PvP gaming. Now GW is not and should not be WoW, but I understood the GW User Agreement clause about bots in the way that _automated_ play is the most important thing to be discouraged, and everything else is open for discussion.

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

Games like City of Heroes and World of Warcraft allow these kind of macros, because they're for convenience rather than automated gameplay.
Not going to mean that Anet will decide it's fine to use, but the point is, don't let actual bots and macros designed to play the game for you prejudice you against this.

An example function I'd imagine would be being able to assign pet Attack, Guard, and Heel modes to 9, 0, -. Nothing you couldn't do with a mouse, but much faster if you're already playing with the 1-8 hotkeys for skills.

Similarly, hotkeying some important hero skills would be great. Lock the heroes out of naturally using say, enchantment removal, and map them to 9, 0, and -, and there you go. It's ready when you need it, and you use it more organically than having 3 hero windows open and mousing over them to hit it.

Yeah, there's the thing really: hotkeys vs macros. I'm fine with the former and not with the latter. We already have access to some hotkeys. Having more is innocuous in and of itself. Having them from a third party source seems to need Gaile's input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead

So I didn't want to say that my tool would fly under the radar or that it wouldn't be a bannable offense. What I did want to say is that ANet does differentiate between "levels of evilness" of such tools that directly modify or automate gameplay. Since my tool does the same as the game already does (translating single keystrokes into single game actions, for example activating skills) and nothing else, I hope for an approval from ANet.

And let me add I was never meaning to imply one thing or the other regarding your tool. Just to point out potential misuse and the hope it could be avoided. Good luck whichever way it goes.

zwei2stein · Jan 13, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I think that you should fight enemies, not your GUI.

So, this is nice idea (alt+# for hero 1, etc ... very neat), but i would stop development untill anet says "OK" on it, otherwise you are basically throwing your account away.

MagmaRed · Jan 13, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Is it a program?
Is it a program made by and released by Anet?

If the answer to those 2 questions is Yes, and No, then it is not allowed by the EULA. 3rd Party Programs are restricted, and although 'allowed' by Anet, even something like Texmod can be used as a ban if Anet so decided. Your idea is to allow for something the game does not allow to be used. Yes, you can do all that stuff with mouse clicks. But it takes some skill to be able to do those things effectively. Having a hero, instead of a real player is sometimes more trouble than its worth. Making heroes as good as a player, means the game goes even more to single player mode. I not only do not want to see this happen, but doubt Anet will ever allow it to happen knowingly.

gone · Jan 13, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

do people still HB? if so you want to be careful. real careful.

Roland of Gilead · Jan 13, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

MagmaRed, I think in your interpretation of the UA you're being more strict than ANet themselves. If you would ban every program related to GW but not released by ANet, you would make yourself liable for a ban if you used as much as a character tracker or a damage calculator. Even something a GW wiki other than the official one would be running on a third-party software. This fan forum's software was not released by ANet, so is it a bannable offense to use it to discuss the game? Of course not, that's why you need to differentiate on a case-by-case basis. The _main_ intention of this clause of the UA is to prohibit automated play programs, i.e., performing a lot of game play with little or no user interaction.

Regarding texMod: Your stance that ANet could at any time decide to turn around and ban everyone using texMod to modify their client is, while theoretically possible, very unlikely in practice, to say the least. See http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide...phics#ArenaNet. The worst they say about texMod is that they offer no support in case of a broken client, which is entirely reasonable.

Esan · Jan 13, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

If people can (and have) been banned for such benign reasons as transferring money between main and mule accounts, I find it difficult to believe that this will somehow be deemed fine. You also have to remember that Gaile and Anet's support department are two entirely separate entities, as she often points out. The support department, that is near the point of collapse given how understaffed they are, may not give anyone the benefit of doubt. Why risk it?

FeroxC · Jan 13, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Sounds like a great idea, i expect Anets stance to be very lenient on this considering it doesn't modify the client and doesn't give you a significant advantage.

What language you thinking of using, C++ ?

Longasc · Jan 13, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

I think you should ask on Gaile's Wiki page.

You said yourself you are not interested in our opinions, but only in official statements.

Nevertheless, given the example of WoW, I will add my opinion towards macros, scripts etc.:

It has gotten out of hand in WoW, and should be strictly prohibited in GW.

As a Paladin, my scripts decide and do for me what I told them:

* When I press Flash of Light or Healing Light, it decides which level to cast, so it does not overheal and conservers Mana.
* It decides whether to use purge or the other one. Forgot the names. The first spell only cleanses poison, the second magical effects as well - it makes the perfect decision for me.
* I can autobuff the whole group with a few clicks, everyone will get the buff I told the script. I will also be reminded when they wear off and asked to re-buff.

... there are also scripts to walk from one flight point to another and whatever.

This is getting too much.

Your hero control center idea is not like that, still, it opens a similar can. I actually like the limited options we have to customize our UI, we can customize it, but not automatize it. Texmod is in general rather innocent, but with spirit range display and stuff that the normal UI cannot offer, it also begins to leave the even playground.

You know what sometimes happens after patchday?
WE CANNOT RAID TODAY, MY UI/MACROES ARE NOT WORKING ATM!
If you do not have the more popular WoW mods, forget raiding...

We better get totally away from this in GW and GW2. See it as your personal skill in clicking buttons that is wanted. This is why I think we should not even begin with that.

If you have a nice improvement for the AI, it should be suggested to ANet. Cosmos UI e.g. became the template for Blizzard's own improved WoW interface.

FeroxC · Jan 13, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Just throwing another idea out here, once you got the framework in place you could add another feature:

Chicken - use somthing like GetPixelColour() to check if the healthbar is empty at say 1/3. Then make it hit a self heal. or quit GW - Would save a lot of survivors.

^Might cross the line with Anet though :P