Curse

Avarre · Feb 06, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

And, you clearly never played in GvG if you think it's that simple. Monk are not complex in anyway, just press a few buttons for Prots and a big red bar pusher when in danger, nor a Warrior, just hit stuff, then use attack skills, so simple is it not?

This is a PvE thread. No amount of experience I got from the hundreds of GvG's I've played is going to change that fact.

The quoted message does an excellent job of describing exactly how PvE is played.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 06, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Mesmers aren't totally unfunctional in PvE, but there are always better alternatives.

Completely agree. It didn't use to be that way, but mesmers have been nerfed every time there's been a skill rebalance, and now they've simply been nerfed one time too many to be particularly useful in PvE. Not useless, but, like you say, a ranger or a necro is always a better choice.
However, that mesmers are underpowered in PvE doesn't mean that Ursan is not overpowered. And if you're playing ursan you're not playing mesmer at all.

DivineEnvoy · Feb 06, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Completely agree. It didn't use to be that way, but mesmers have been nerfed every time there's been a skill rebalance, and now they've simply been nerfed one time too many to be particularly useful in PvE. Not useless, but, like you say, a ranger or a necro is always a better choice.

I don't believe Mesmers received many nerfs when comes to skill balances, but instead, PvE was not created to use them at all, and Hard Mode just completely killed nearly all the reasons of having a Mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

However, that mesmers are underpowered in PvE doesn't mean that Ursan is not overpowered. And if you're playing ursan you're not playing mesmer at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

If anyone knows any effective builds for Mesmers that can match the efficiency of Searing Heat Elementalists, let me know, but until then, I'm going to stick with Ursan. And if anyone is going to continue saying how just because I'm running Ursan, I have deceived the purpose of being a Mesmer. Please, spare me your politics speeches; I ran a FC nuker for 2 years after I bought the game back in 2004 just so I can join PuG's, and the only reasons I actually used Mesmer skills were the fact I needed to kill an Elementalist boss in Cantha and degening Kuunavang. Consequently, if you haven't suffered much from the discrimination, you really can't express what many of us have gone through, and with all these points I see people make as if they know about these sufferings, I find it rather hypocrite.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 06, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I don't believe Mesmers received many nerfs when comes to skill balances

Yeah, they did. From their only unconditional AoE (Chaos Storm) losing all steam when mobs started walking out of the very small AoE, to the entire energy drain line being completely gutted. E-drain was one of the original focuses of mesmers, and they were once upon a time able to drain PvE bosses, but people felt the draining was annoying in PvP and the entire line was nerfed. After that they've received minor nerfs pretty much every skill re-balance, usually because some skill had been abused by another class.

They did receive a boost of their interrupting a couple of months ago, when recharge times for several of the interrupts were reduced from "ridiculous" to "fairly high", but as interrupting HM bosses is very difficult for all but the longest casts that didn't really help them in PvE.

I've always felt that the problem with mesmers is that a lot of the stuff they should be doing is done by other classes: monks are much better at hex removal, necros have Spiteful Spirit even though that clearly is the bigger brother of Empathy, and eles have Maelstrom even though that clearly is the bigger brother of Chaos Storm.

It's telling, IMO, that the the supposed best interruptors of the game doesn't have a single skill which gives Dazed.

Good secondary class, weak primary.

Sleeper Service · Feb 06, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

e-drain used to be good ? when??? :s

Numa Pompilius · Feb 06, 2008, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

e-drain used to be good ? when??? :s

September 20, 2005, was the update which removed edrain as a viable PvE tactic for mesmers, apparently because edrain was annoying to casters in PvP.

The line was further nerfed some time later because it was being used by boonprot monks to get near infinite energy.

Div · Feb 06, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I never said Mesmers are super complex, but to suggest that they and assassins are on the same level, is pure stupidity.

And, you clearly never played in GvG if you think it's that simple. Monk are not complex in anyway, just press a few buttons for Prots and a big red bar pusher when in danger, nor a Warrior, just hit stuff, then use attack skills, so simple is it not?

That's because Avarre has like over 9000 ping. And who cares about GvG? PvE is simple. Simple for assassin. Simple for mesmer. I can pretty much c-space through just about anything, with an occasional esurge/eburn tossed in for big damage.

Savio · Feb 06, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

September 20, 2005, was the update which removed edrain as a viable PvE tactic for mesmers

E-denial was never a viable PvE tactic because monsters can't run out of energy. Feel free to try something else to troll about.

Tyla · Feb 06, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

But I'm going to defend my position as follows...
It is easy not to overextend as a warrior or dervish. If you see the "tide" of the battle turning and release you are starting to walk too far ahead, you have time to back off.
A sin on the other hand teleports into the enemies midline/backline instantly with a single press of a button, unlike a warrior/dervish who has travel time to the target (and thus also has the time to back off in the same way). A sin has to be aware of the "tide" the battle is GOING to take as they shadowstep. If a sin shadowsteps into the enemies backline right before/as that enemy team is about to surge forward, and fails to disrupt that surge, that sin will be in quite a lurch. Unless he is using AoD or Shadow Walk, the sin won't have an ability to escape before being spiked down because his shadowstep is recharging.

Forgot a skill there.

Either way - ShadowStepping is easy not to overextend. Keeping an eye on the battlefield is key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Although I do not play a mesmer NOW, I have tried it before, as I have tried every profession. So therefore, not false statements in fact, not even real statements, just as your "statements" are not real statements, they are all OPINIONS.

Tried - only tried.

Quote:

1) only two enchantments refresh with critical hits, critical defenses and critical agility. 2) The point of a sin is to use critical hit builds.

Critical Hit builds? Crit *insert weapon* Builds actually.
The point of a sin is to jump in, assassinate the target, jump out. Not to quarrel around using crit-daggers build...

Quote:

3)Sins are not "incredibly" survivable, a sin equiped with the 2 skills you seemed to have implied *critical defenses and critical agility* and other poor choices can still get spiked to death easily. 3)Every profession requires a bit of their bar to be survivable, and if not, then they rely on the monk.

[/quote]
Those 2 skills are very powerful in self defense.
Perma 75% block is gud.

Quote:

Sins only have a few viable skillset options when not chained, however, A sin can use almost any skill and make it "viable" in a build, just as people have constantly attempted in PvP with using the same build even after it got nurfed. Also, for your sin's skills being nurfed, all ten professions' skills get nurfed constantly, not just sin skills.

Yes, quite obvious no?
'Sins are still nice to play - but they just aren't as good. Unlike other professions that got nerfed - they're still extremely strong.

(By the way, it's nerfed.

)

(Also - can we please stop being off-topic?)

DarkGanni · Feb 06, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

No.

12 characters

The Way Out · Feb 06, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

E-denial was never a viable PvE tactic because monsters can't run out of energy. Feel free to try something else to troll about.

Monsters do run out of energy if you force them to... which the DoA famine/smite is built off of (and the Urgoz Smite farming builds).

Besides that, before this thread became a pissing contest, the trivium is still in effect.

Having said that, is it me, or have I been seeing a ton of warriors drifting from good ol' tanking and becoming the damage dealing beasts they should be?

I am in an Elite PvE guild (and Elite meaning we do nothing else but Hard Mode everything... including FoW, UW, Urgoz, Deep, etc...) and we have players that play every profession. I am also familiar with running with every character class.

If anyone here has stated that it takes no intelligence to play a class (choose one)... you are absolutely right. Anyone can create any character and screw it up and make it look retarded and unusable. After running with people with intelligence running varying classes... I have concluded the following...

Play with a retarded monk long enough and you think that all monks suck...

Play with a really good monk and you think they are easy to play with...

Play with a retarded assassin and you think that all assassins suck...

Play with a really good assassin and you think they are easy to play with...

Same goes for mesmers, rangers, elementalists, paragons, etc...

I see a lot of people who don't accept sins, paragons, dervishes, or mesmers into their parties because they are only looking for Monks, Nukers, and Tanks. ... which some of us older players know has been the unbroken trivium in all of gaming.

In short, players with intelligence play any character class and find the utility in them. Hence, the constant nerfing of skills and builds.

Anyone who calls a Ranger a moderate damage dealer hasn't been on the oppossing side of a spiking crip ranger...

Anyone who calls a sin easy to play hasn't played with one that has no intelligence and runs into mobs arbitrarily. That same assassin then gets mad at the monks because they don't heal him fast enough.

People with intelligence generally know that a warrior can "tank" more damage, not because they have been traditionally called tanks, but because the mechanics of the friggin system are that warriors have the most armor. Doesn't mean they are tanks, or that their soul purpose is to just hold aggro, but it means that they are more resilient to damage. Understood?

Anyone here who engages in any kind of pissing contest about which profession sucks and which is the uber leetage, needs to do two things...

Play another profession in both PvE and PvP and test it for yourself. Become leet at it and utilize the classes as they are designed, and not throw UB on and swear you are a great sin in PvE.

Make educated opinion on topics like mesmers, i.e. play one, or play with one consistently, then comment on it.

Well over half the people in this forum suffer from PvXwikitis... a very common disease that originally helps noobs, but sometimes lingers in veteran players, crippling their minds and making them conformists that snap at anyone who doesn't run their build because they are unfamiliar with it and don't understand how it works.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 06, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

E-denial was never a viable PvE tactic because monsters can't run out of energy. Feel free to try something else to troll about.

Are you on drugs? You can still drain monsters of energy.

Savio · Feb 06, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Which did nothing unless you had Mind Wrack on them. You can get them to 0, but the monsters cheat when it comes to energy (at least, they did when e-denial wasn't nerfed; I don't know if it's still the case). You might as well wand them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Way Out

Play with a retarded monk long enough and you think that all monks suck...

Incorrect, most people do not notice if a monk is good at all. They judge monks by the success of the group: if the group succeeds, you praise the monks; if the group fails, you scream at the monks for not healing fast enough.

The Way Out · Feb 06, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Which did nothing unless you had Mind Wrack on them. You can get them to 0, but the monsters cheat when it comes to energy (at least, they did when e-denial wasn't nerfed; I don't know if it's still the case). You might as well wand them.

Incorrect, most people do not notice if a monk is good at all. They judge monks by the success of the group: if the group succeeds, you praise the monks; if the group fails, you scream at the monks for not healing fast enough.

When I was a Ranger, before I played a monk, I immediately noticed when a monk was bad. I would ask them to ping their build plz and would get the following... "no Elite, five 10+ energy skills with no E-Management..., cross-class attack skills (just in-case), or they would just scream at me for being an Elitist and /ragequit

You do bring up a good point though, people do call a monk bad if the party fails... hehe... in most pugs. Having said that, I think the game is filled with a ton of bad players... noobs excluded. Bad players make me cringe.

We had a Ritualist in my guild, during an Underworld clearing, that kept suiciding himself into Obsidian Behemoth traps because he had dp and thought it was a great idea to use himself to set off the traps so we could pass. When I showed him that you could set off the traps by just going near the vicinity and backing away quickly, he yelled at me and told me his way was faster. I then explained that we could just walk around the damn things anyway, and he got mad and /ragequit.

I had a monk in a pickup group who had Spell Breaker as his Elite with all healing spells and proceeded to tell me that HB builds sucked and I needed to get creative. After quickly scanning his build, I realized that he only had Prophecies skills and commented on it.... /ragequit

This is what I mean by bad players... understood?

Looking at someones build is normally the precursor to determining if they suck or not. However, I am still astonished that players can ruin a good build. Intelligence... lol... is lacking in most of guildwars.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 06, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Which did nothing unless you had Mind Wrack on them. You can get them to 0, but the monsters cheat when it comes to energy (at least, they did when e-denial wasn't nerfed; I don't know if it's still the case). You might as well wand them.

I think they have a 5 energy "rebate" on the cost of spells, because they continue to cast 5-energy spells even when at zero energy, but I don't know if I'd say that shutting down all >5 energy skills equals "might as well wand".

maraxusofk · Feb 07, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Way Out

Play with a retarded monk long enough and you think that all monks suck...

Play with a really good monk and you think they are easy to play with...

Play with a retarded assassin and you think that all assassins suck...

Play with a really good assassin and you think they are easy to play with...

Same goes for mesmers, rangers, elementalists, paragons, etc...

yes but the thing ur forgetting is the different relative levels it takes to suck at certain classes in pve. its kind of hard to suck at fire ele in both pve and pvp unless that person is extremely horrible, because the job is relatively simple. however, in pve, the game gets dumbed down even further so sucking at a relative class takes extraordinary ability to reach aforementioned level of suck. for example, playing a mesmer in pve takes the ability to not aggro, and tab through targets assisting in some shape or form. thats all it takes for a mesmer to not suck in pve (and suprisngly ppl still fail at this). however take paragons for instance. its even simpler to not be bad because all you do is stand outside of aggro, and spam shouts/chuck spears.

in the end its all about how much leeway certain classes allow for the individual to suck to have that class considered not useless in pve.

The Way Out · Feb 07, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

yes but the thing ur forgetting is the different relative levels it takes to suck at certain classes in pve. its kind of hard to suck at fire ele in both pve and pvp unless that person is extremely horrible, because the job is relatively simple. however, in pve, the game gets dumbed down even further so sucking at a relative class takes extraordinary ability to reach aforementioned level of suck. for example, playing a mesmer in pve takes the ability to not aggro, and tab through targets assisting in some shape or form. thats all it takes for a mesmer to not suck in pve (and suprisngly ppl still fail at this). however take paragons for instance. its even simpler to not be bad because all you do is stand outside of aggro, and spam shouts/chuck spears.

in the end its all about how much leeway certain classes allow for the individual to suck to have that class considered not useless in pve.

I speak of the vast majority of retards out there. Not the exceptionally special ones who think a bringing a polar bear as a monk is a great idea because it will help them kill them enemy faster.

There are a surprising number of people out there that just don't get things. This is evident when people play every profession as if they are warriors with high armor ratings. There is not thought, they just run into mobs, die, rez, run in again, die rez, and continue to repeat, claiming that the mission or scenario is really hard and anet should make things a little easier. hehe

Actually, in PvE, the AI goes for the characters who aggro first. They then go after the lowest armor rated player (with a preference for monks). That is the system mechanics of PvE in a nutshell. So, anyone who has no intelligence and strays from the "let the warrior take the aggro" mentality, finds the game difficult and normally have no clue that there is actual thought that can be put into the game.

Depending on age level, I find that older players are far better players (on average), than younger ones. Thinking about it, I remember having difficulty with a lot of games as a teenager, that I can breeze through now... many years later. I think it is a matter of how older players perceive the game and possible solutions, where a lot of younger players attempt to muscle their way through the game(s) and don't stray to far from what they know.