Curse

Racthoh · Feb 04, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

That is true, but is a Mesmer designed to take down those one or two trouble foes per group needed versus any other character that can take down the group as a whole in about the same amount of time? Of course it works, but is it better, or even on par with other classes in PvE?

In the eyes of the community they are not. Single target damage is shunned in PuGs; mesmers are unwanted, warriors max strength and earth magic to tank, assassins are a warrior that can't tank like a warrior so we don't want you. Barrage, Spiteful Spirit, Searing Flames, Ursan, etc... are the only way to get things done in PvE according to PuGs. AoE that's what is important, even if a warrior is using its weapon it's for Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe because AoE is much better than Dragon Slash!

Longasc · Feb 04, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

The problem with PuGs is perception.

The three main fallacies of GW PuGs are IMO:

1.) Believing in Tanks
2.) Believing in the Holy Trinity of Tank, Nuker, Healer, that gets translated into Warrior, Elementalist, pure Healing (!) Monk
3.) Ursans > Everything

Ursans are good to make up for player deficiencies and are easy to play, this makes them popular for good reason.

Paragons and Ritualists are severly undervalued. An Axe Warrior with 2-3 AoE attacks cannot hope for anything better than Channeling Ritualist. Splinter Weapon + Ancestor's Rage kills things incredibly fast.

It took Necromancers a long time till they were recognized, the same for Rangers. Mesmers will probably never lose the Stigma of being "useless". In a world of incompetent players, an incompetent Mesmer is probably among the worst - this is the logic behind it...^^

Still, the other conclusion drawn from this does not hold true either: A really bad player cannot become better by picking a profession that has it easy and really has advantages in PvE.

Hm... don't PUG with Ursans, so you do not have to bear their stupidity. :>

arcanemacabre · Feb 04, 2008, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

In the eyes of the community they are not. Single target damage is shunned in PuGs; mesmers are unwanted, warriors max strength and earth magic to tank, assassins are a warrior that can't tank like a warrior so we don't want you. Barrage, Spiteful Spirit, Searing Flames, Ursan, etc... are the only way to get things done in PvE according to PuGs. AoE that's what is important, even if a warrior is using its weapon it's for Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe because AoE is much better than Dragon Slash!

I really don't think it is an issue with the community. Although a tank is useless everywhere, AoE is the most efficient way to steamroll through most of PvE. Sure, you could make specific team builds for specific areas that will be much more efficient, but if you just want to pick up and go (see: casual players), why deviate from what works best in general? No, this is an issue with how the game is designed as a whole, not the community's approach to the game.

Elite areas are the only exception to this rule, but sadly, they are a very small percentage of the game. That is why I generally say 99% of PvE. While that number may be skewed, the point remains - Mesmers only have a real place in the areas that all the other classes have the most trouble and the 'generic build' mentality suffers.

Then came along Ursan which pretty much ruined that.

Tyla · Feb 04, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

The problem with PuGs is perception.

The three main fallacies of GW PuGs are IMO:

1.) Believing in Tanks
2.) Believing in the Holy Trinity of Tank, Nuker, Healer, that gets translated into Warrior, Elementalist, pure Healing (!) Monk
3.) Ursans > Everything
4.) Warriors = Tank

You forgot that one.
Everytime I hear someone call a "Warrior" a "Tank" I jump one step closer to incinerating him to death.
I even got called "Dumbass" for saying: "It's WARRIOR not TANK".

Racthoh · Feb 04, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I really don't think it is an issue with the community. Although a tank is useless everywhere, AoE is the most efficient way to steamroll through most of PvE. Sure, you could make specific team builds for specific areas that will be much more efficient, but if you just want to pick up and go (see: casual players), why deviate from what works best in general? No, this is an issue with how the game is designed as a whole, not the community's approach to the game.

Having a lot of AoE or having little in my experiences generally doesn't impact the timing a whole lot. There are of course those occasions when the mob balls up just right and all of the AoE hits so perfectly that the +exp all pops up at once. But it isn't going to happen all the time unless you tanknspank which is going to be really slow. There is that nice balance between the AoE and single target damage that every other approach is going to use. People just perfer to have more AoE when really the professions that excel at making one thing die are just as good.

arcanemacabre · Feb 04, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Having a lot of AoE or having little in my experiences generally doesn't impact the timing a whole lot. There are of course those occasions when the mob balls up just right and all of the AoE hits so perfectly that the +exp all pops up at once. But it isn't going to happen all the time unless you tanknspank which is going to be really slow. There is that nice balance between the AoE and single target damage that every other approach is going to use. People just perfer to have more AoE when really the professions that excel at making one thing die are just as good.

When I'm talking AoE, I'm referring to the difference in usefulness between the damage a class with AoE (be it Ele nuker, Splinter Weapon, SS, whatever) can do, and how essential that is to most of PvE, versus the team slot that Mesmer uses that is less effective as a whole. Of course, it may be better to compare to the positions filled by other classes for taking out a single target. Compare what that Mesmer can do to take out a monk (for instance), to what that D-Slash warrior can do. Compare the shutdown that Mesmer can do to any spellcaster versus a BHA ranger. When you have options, there are always better options than taking a Mesmer for whatever job is at hand - with those few exceptions of elite areas that may require more shutdown and more 'sniping' than most of PvE.

Racthoh · Feb 04, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

When I'm talking AoE, I'm referring to the difference in usefulness between the damage a class with AoE (be it Ele nuker, Splinter Weapon, SS, whatever) can do, and how essential that is to most of PvE, versus the team slot that Mesmer uses that is less effective as a whole.

When it comes to AoE then yes the mesmer is going to be the weakest choice. I mentioned that in an earlier post that if you're trying to make your mesmer do good AoE damage you're not going to be able to. It isn't what they're made to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Compare what that Mesmer can do to take out a monk (for instance), to what that D-Slash warrior can do. Compare the shutdown that Mesmer can do to any spellcaster versus a BHA ranger. When you have options, there are always better options than taking a Mesmer for whatever job is at hand - with those few exceptions of elite areas that may require more shutdown and more 'sniping' than most of PvE.

Well that is going to depend entirely on the area. In the presence of warrior hate the mesmer is just as useful but obviously lacking in the AL department. BHA to me is one of the best skills in the game PvE wise, but still the mesmer has Backfire so unless those heals are greater than Backfire's damage the mesmer would be just as useful. For taking down a non-monk caster the mesmer will be more useful than daze; I can load passive defense to deal with the damage their spells will deal.

Elite Areas I would say the mesmer is less useful in Urgoz and the Deep. Too many important targets, a larger emphasis on AoE is the stronger route.

Esan · Feb 04, 2008, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Spiteful Spirit on a caster is going to yield terrible damage returns unless you're fighting a group of balled up casters. In which case I'd use Splinter Weapon since my warrior attacks faster than a caster casts. Spoil Victor is useful in multiple healer situations; physicals pound one while the SV deals with the other. Otherwise it's damage on a target I could care less about and just speeds up the process of wiping an already defeated mob.

Actually, my thought there was unfinished. I meant SS and SV as examples of punishment hexes. There are others, most importantly Pain Inverter, but also including Backfire, Soul Leech, etc. My point is, instead of shutting casters down in PvE with BHA, let them cast and kill themselves.

I personally think BHA is a pointless elite. It has very limited use in both PvE and PvP. After the gee wiz factor the first few times, I tossed it for good ol' Concussion Shot (for the rare instances where daze is actually necessary) and brought another decent elite instead. (In my case, the decent elite is Defiant Was Xinrae, one of the least used and understood elites in the entire game, but also one of the best in PvE.)

Surena · Feb 04, 2008, 09:17 AM // 09:17

BHA is a pointless elite? What? It's the best caster shutdown you'll find in PvE. Good job waiting for the opportunity to concussion while you could actually just shoot with no thought and spread via epidemic. Easy.

garethporlest18 · Feb 04, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

There are people who want to get a challenge and create builds while there are those who want to get the job done. Nearly all PuGs are the latter and have never tried anything new. Its always been one team set up until it ether gets nerfed or a new more efficient one pops up.

Yep, that's FoW groups for you. I try to go in there with a damage warrior, air ele or a sin but nothing doing. At least not with PUGs. I try to bring them to light about their stupidity but they just don't seem to get that Tanks and Bonders make you bad at this game. Oh well. I'll just keep ridiculing and causing grief whenever I have time and feel like doing so.

Someone called me a noob once cause I said tanks suck. LOL. Wooh boy.

Oh and if you have to use a bonder it's because A. Your team doesn't PvP/bad at the game and can't kite enemies in a manner that is good kiting (not running off aggroing other mobs like a tard). B. You and or your team doesn't know how to play because they aren't doing enough damage or are using a tank. Basically go to FoW and you see the majority of fail that is PUG in Guild Wars. Because I hate you if you use a tank (ele or warrior) I will mess up your aggro so I can show you that you suck without having damage, because you won't find me doing that boring robot stuff, I don't need money/titles so when I'm on your team I'm on for fun and I will force that shit on you. I stick it to the man.

Surena · Feb 04, 2008, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Why would you use "air magic" in Pve?

garethporlest18 · Feb 04, 2008, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Why would you use "air magic" in Pve?

You wouldn't for the most part as Fire is better in doing AoE damage. But it's boring as hell being a fire ele for 2 years. I just mentioned it for a change of pace, Air Ele's have a chance to be great in PvE but you'd have to know how to play one.

arsie · Feb 04, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I didn't know whether to be happy or unhappy, when I slapped a Pain Inverter on an Ele boss, only to see my hero BHA ranger shut it down for the entire duration. Either way, I end up the winner.

Surena · Feb 04, 2008, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Can you mention its greatness?

Air magic spells are too costly, blind in Pve is inferior to anti-melee hexes and weakness.

zwei2stein · Feb 04, 2008, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Why would you use "air magic" in Pve?

Hmm ... solo quests? DUH

Esan · Feb 04, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Why would you use "air magic" in Pve?

Storm Djinn's Haste is godly in PvE.

Assuming you're doing something brainless like farming faction with heroes.

MithranArkanere · Feb 04, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Why would you use "air magic" in Pve?

Cracked Armor+Weakness+Blindness+Epidemic=Laught at melee mobs.
I bring an AirMeser Vekk when facing Destroyers or Golems. Works wonders.

And no, they are not equal. Even the Norn blessings and other effects that repace all skills keep some differences. At least when you are under an effect that replace all skills they should remove profession differences.

Kos Luftar · Feb 04, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

In the eyes of the community they are not. Single target damage is shunned in PuGs; mesmers are unwanted, warriors max strength and earth magic to tank, assassins are a warrior that can't tank like a warrior so we don't want you. Barrage, Spiteful Spirit, Searing Flames, Ursan, etc... are the only way to get things done in PvE according to PuGs. AoE that's what is important, even if a warrior is using its weapon it's for Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe because AoE is much better than Dragon Slash!

Yeh, they are all equal because we can all use Ursan Blessing which is the best skill in the game.

Pleikki · Feb 04, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Go another disctricts and Int there you faind other parties. Best partys for farming i get with mates and guildies and never ursanway its so booring.

Antheus · Feb 04, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

I didn't know whether to be happy or unhappy, when I slapped a Pain Inverter on an Ele boss, only to see my hero BHA ranger shut it down for the entire duration. Either way, I end up the winner.

If only there were a way to prevent heroes from using certain skills....

Quote:

Oh and if you have to use a bonder it's because A. Your team doesn't PvP/bad at the game and can't kite enemies in a manner that is good kiting (not running off aggroing other mobs like a tard). B. You and or your team doesn't know how to play because they aren't doing enough damage or are using a tank. Basically go to FoW and you see the majority of fail that is PUG in Guild Wars.

I once joined a FoW group with paragon that was looking for a bonder. I said I don't do bonder and went with usual heal/prot, either ZB or DH (that was before WoH).

About 15 minutes in, the other monk left. If I were a bonder, that would be game over. Instead, we went and completed FoW, with 6 people at the end. "Healing" was done by 1 monk and 1 paragon. That's all you need. No bonders, no healers, no tanks, just protection and damage mitigation. Then use minor heals to touch up.

Bonder in FoW also has to deal with enchantment shattering, and is completely useless against scales, which are arguably one of the more annoying parts, since they go through all protection.

But PUGs will be PUGs.