Curse

Meat Axe · Feb 16, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr

Role-playing and first-person are not game genre's, they are game mechanics.

No, they are genres. RPG or FPS or RTS or any other are styles of games. A genre is simply a categorisation of something to more easily sort them into manageable groups. There are different types of genre. The style of the game is one sort of genre, and the theme (fantasy and whatnot) of the game is another.

Also, to say that guns don't belong in fantasy is utterly ridiculous. Are you saying that the Final Fantasy series belong in the fantasy genre? Are you saying that a game like Arcanum, which mixes magic and technology seamlessly, doesn't belong in the fantasy genre? Either your definition of fantasy is way too limited and is completely wrong, or... well, there isn't really another explanation I can think of.

AuraofMana · Feb 16, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

There are 2 fantasies:
High Fantasy - D2, LOTR, DND, magic and swords, no guns.
and
Sci-Fi - Psychic powers, space traveling, aliens, uber guns.

You can mix them, but few chooses to do so because it kind of makes no sense. Why use bow/arrow when you can use a gun?

But then again, this is a video game. Realism doesn't exist.

Still, guns are boring. Fireball > guns.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 16, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Hey it's opinion.
People would rather use a Gun than a Fireball, other's would rather use a Bow rather than a Gun.

ryanryanryan0310 · Feb 16, 2008, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Lead Bullet
10e 1/2cast 5sec/recharge
You shoot a bullet that does +15...23...99 and travels 1000 ft/s . You can not avoid/block this attack unless you name is Bruce Lee.

Bullets travel too fast to block or see. You'll just see full teams of gunners in PvP. Melee will be down the drain, unless the "tanks" actually become tanks.
DPS for guns will be insane.

But I can see Cannons replacing the Trebuchets. Same function just differenet looks.

If you want guns you need to be playing a different game.

Muspellsheimr · Feb 16, 2008, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

No, they are genres. RPG or FPS or RTS or any other are styles of games. A genre is simply a categorisation of something to more easily sort them into manageable groups. There are different types of genre. The style of the game is one sort of genre, and the theme (fantasy and whatnot) of the game is another.

Also, to say that guns don't belong in fantasy is utterly ridiculous. Are you saying that the Final Fantasy series belong in the fantasy genre? Are you saying that a game like Arcanum, which mixes magic and technology seamlessly, doesn't belong in the fantasy genre? Either your definition of fantasy is way too limited and is completely wrong, or... well, there isn't really another explanation I can think of.

First, First Person, Role Playing, Real Time Strategy, etc. are game mechanics. Genre deals with the flavor of the game, style of the world, not with how the user interacts with it.

Second, you did not clearly read what I have said. I have said, and will say again that *typically* guns are a bad idea in a fantasy game. There are fantasy games that have guns, but the vast majority of them are crap. The few good ones are usually an equal amount of fantasy and sci-fi, and so are mis-classified as pure fantasy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

There are 2 fantasies:
High Fantasy - D2, LOTR, DND, magic and swords, no guns.
and
Sci-Fi - Psychic powers, space traveling, aliens, uber guns.

Two types of Fiction, not Fantasy. Science Fiction has nothing to do with Fantasy.

EDIT:
I think I give up on this thread. The few people supporting the idea seem unable to grasp the basic concepts of why firearms are not in the game, and why it would be a very bad idea to add them. Luckily, I have no need to worry about ArenaNet adding them in, as the idea is clearly fail, has been suggested many times before, and has never been taken seriously.

Avarre · Feb 16, 2008, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

There are 2 fantasies:
High Fantasy - D2, LOTR, DND, magic and swords, no guns.
and
Sci-Fi - Psychic powers, space traveling, aliens, uber guns.

You can mix them, but few chooses to do so because it kind of makes no sense. Why use bow/arrow when you can use a gun?

But then again, this is a video game. Realism doesn't exist.

Still, guns are boring. Fireball > guns.

There are some science fantasy books that do merge the two slightly. Dune is an example, that actually made sense regarding having knives and laser cannons in the same world.

AuraofMana · Feb 16, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Science Fiction has nothing to do with Fantasy.

Explain, I don't really get that :/

Quote:

Dune is an example, that actually made sense regarding having knives and laser cannons in the same world.

Ahh yes, Dune was awesome. The whole shield thing right? Yeah SW had it too. What about bow and guns :/?

ryanryanryan0310 · Feb 16, 2008, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Maybe if it was a Crossbow? That might work.
Slower recharge time but faster shots.

We can even call it a BOWGUN so we can have guns in guildwars..... no?

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 16, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Haha, You'r exagerating the power of Guns.

There's no difference between a Headshot from a Bow and with a Gun.

And why do you think of so much of guns, Bullets are Evadable and Blockable.
In fiction characters are able to fight like Bruce Lee or even better.

Guns are easily Ballanced, Cause you people think of Guns as overpowered Weaponry.
As if a Bullet is stronger than a Meteor Shower or a Fireball.

And no one said GW2 would have to be Fantasy based, Also G.O.L.E.Ms are just another excuse for a Robot, and Asura Gates are just Teleportation Devices.
BTW, GOLEMS and Gates are already qualified as Technology. Technology is the knowledge of Tools and Crafts.
And if you say it's not cause it Magically endowed then I tell you, Magically, eletrically, Mechanically, Chemically or whatever type of Energy.
It is still counted as Technology, and Flintlocks and Revolvers are alot more Primitive than GOLEMS or Gates.
And why say something alot Easier to make be less of possible.
I dunno if you blind or just can accept the Truth, but GW is capable of such Firearms.

Meat Axe · Feb 16, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Explain, I don't really get that :/

Fantasy is based almost solely on things that are just too extaordinary to be real. Magic and mythical, magical beasts and all that. Science fiction, on the other hand, is based on science, hence the name. Sure, there are a lot of assumptions made in sci-fi, but most of it can be explained using science. They are completely different sub-categories of fiction, not of fantasy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr

First, First Person, Role Playing, Real Time Strategy, etc. are game mechanics. Genre deals with the flavor of the game, style of the world, not with how the user interacts with it.

No, those aren't game mechanics. They are styles of the game, and therefore those games can be sorted into the genres (since genre is style). Game mechanics are the inner workings of the game, and you could never sort games by those, because each one has varying mechanics. For instance, GW's game mechanics are very, very different from WoW's, but they are both RPGs.

Quote:

Second, you did not clearly read what I have said. I have said, and will say again that *typically* guns are a bad idea in a fantasy game. There are fantasy games that have guns, but the vast majority of them are crap. The few good ones are usually an equal amount of fantasy and sci-fi, and so are mis-classified as pure fantasy.

You got me there. :P I added that bit as an after-thought, and didn't go back and read exactly what you said before I typed that.

Anyway, you do have a point in that guns will not slot seamlessly into some games. I have a feeling GW is one of them (and by saying GW, I'm including GW2). I can't really see guns fitting into the world of Tyria. Not only do they not fit, there are heaps of balance issues. A bullet propelled by combustion is always going to go further and faster than an arrow propelled by a piece of string. Differing damage isn't the point. An arrow can do just as much damage as a bullet. The simple fact that a bullet can move faster and further makes it too hard to balance. They won't be able to be dodged as easily (if at all). I can also see people killing enemies before they even get close because of the increased range of a bullet.

It just isn't as simple as reskinning a bow. Personally, I prefer some level of realism (not much, but some) in the games I play, and it would disturb me deeply to see a bullet travelling at the same speed as an arrow.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 16, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Bullets would have faster Travel Speed but Slower Attack Speed.
A Gun would take 4.33 seconds while Bows would take 3.00 seconds.
And we can make Bullets slower in GW, like it would take 0.99 seconds of Flight.

Or also we can make, Guns as only a Tube which fires of Gunpowder but without bullets.
Making it more of a Shotgun, but and Explosion Comes out of the tip.
So it would have Shorter Range, but Slower Recharge yet Fast Flight Speed.
Blowgun?.., Nothing just naming it^^.

Malice Black · Feb 16, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Ok...seing as you're really keen on this..

Backfire?

Remember all old guns were pretty 50/50 if they backfired/exploded or just didn't fire. All this would have to be added.

Gunmanship below 4 would = 50% chance of backfire, causing xx damage.

Dante the Warlord · Feb 16, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Firearms would be terrible in GW, why because you click the person an automatically start shooting, boring to me... If you actually have to press a button to attack then it might be ok, especially with an alternation between swords and such. If you want a cool game with swords and firearms, play Devil May Cry 4, its got firearms and swords. If you wanna stick to GW play ranger or paragon, they use long ranged projectiles anyways, kinda like a gun...

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 16, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

We can add Backfire as an Effect for Guns.
But triggered on through Skills, for ballancing.

Goodnight^^!

@Dante
-That goes for all Click & Hit Games, and GW have same Gameplay, except for Sins.
And also if you say no, maybe cause of the skills, Firearms would have skill also.

MithranArkanere · Feb 16, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Bullets may have longer recharges and higer cooldown times after skills.

prism2525 · Feb 16, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

WTB shield with +10 Armor vs Bullets

just in case...

MithranArkanere · Feb 16, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Just imagine the 'real' Barrage:
Bullet Barrage
Elite Firearm Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 12 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +2...9...10 damage if they hit.

Hm... bullets would have piercing or blunt damage?

Magikarp · Feb 16, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

matchlock: 9-41 damage. attack speed slow, fast projectile speed (you can still kite and strafe out of shots btw)

to sum up all the nonsense being passed around here, this is what i would think of as balance. the musket, or matchlock will be a spiking tool, that causes deep wounds, and the occasional disease and/or burning with some of its skills. it would have the same attack rate as hammers/scythes, and will do a damage amount similar to the scythe (having massive criticals and low dead spots).

gun mastery will bacfire if you're under 9 attribute points in it by 50%, and there will even be some skills saying you have a % risk of backfire. also, you're primary would be something like "gunmanship", or "firearms", which would counteract some of the backfire percentage, and speed up your longer activation times (sort of like fast casting, but for just regular skills, like say "iron shot"-5e, 3sec cast, 10 sec rec: you shoot a rusty iron pellet at target for +5..25 damage, causing disease for 1..10 seconds).

also, this would all be piercing damage, like a bow, and still physical combat, so counters would of course be similar to any physical projectie i.e. bows/spears.

it would use preperations similar to a ranger, and have some shouts similar to command mastery, so you could sort of rally your team with called shots.

thats my two and a half cents.

and p.s. i'd take a fight against a matchlock wielding a sword before i fight a skill marksmen with a bow. matchlocks are slow, cumbersom, and were dangerous to use. sounds pretty balanced to me.

HuntMaster Avatar · Feb 16, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

Guns don't kill people.
People kill people.

Say no to guns.

Guns don't kill people, Bullets and blood loss does.

I wouldn't mind having guns in GW. its not like it would break the game or anything. The games already nearly broken as it is.

Bazooka Warrior in Da House!

Abedeus · Feb 16, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

Bullets travel too fast to block or see. You'll just see full teams of gunners in PvP. Melee will be down the drain, unless the "tanks" actually become tanks.
DPS for guns will be insane.

Actually, they handled the gun problem in Ragnarok Online quite well.

For example, a Gatling Gun (something like a mobile Vulcan minigun) has very fast attack speed, but it's pretty weak and slows down user by 10-15%.

Or there are handguns that have an ability to (with right skills) double-shoot or shoot all targets around them, consuming A LOT of bullets (if there are 5 enemies, it consumes 50 bullets - those are 3 times more expensive than arrows, if there are 10, it consumes 100 bullets), but has a 10% bigger chance to miss than normal weapon/other gun.

There are also ,,sniper rifles'', which have 10% bigger chance to hit than normal weapon/gun, 10% higher chance for critical damage and bigger dmg per hit, but it's very, very slow. Plus they have fewer skills than other weapons.

There are also shotguns and grenade launchers, but that would be way off...

But seriously, if dwarfs have powder and asuras have golems (yea, I know, they're not robots, but magical things... but weapons can be too), why they can't combine their talents to make a gun?

Or let's look at the.. Discworld. There was a powerful weapon, first gun ever, which used fireworks as bullets. It was of course corrupted, but hey, everyone feels that surge of power when holding a weapon. Check out Guards! Guards! for more info.

I wouldn't mind having guns in GW.