Curse

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 11, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Just curious as to the intermediates and pros to what they think is effective. Some say that cookie cutter builds are 'boring' but suffice it to say, they're the best builds efficiently speaking. When people try something new, though more fun, less efficient, they get salmon-slapped up the wazoo...

Ideally, the W/X cookie cutter skills I've noticed for both modes are:
[axe example]

(PvP build cookie cutter template)
Disrupting Chop, Eviscerate {E}, Executioner's Strike, Bull's Strike, Flail, Rush, [utility from secondary, maybe], Res Skill

(PvE build cookie cutter template)
Triple Chop {E}, Cyclone Axe, Dismember, Whirlwind Attack, Flail, Watch (Save) Yourself!!, [utility], Res Skill

Now from the looks of those, 7 of the 8 skills are like 'must have or your warrior sucks' kind of setups... All these attacks mentioned [save the utility] are proven to be the best for an axe user in most if not all scenarios and I think the only thing people hump on now is the utility skill. They either force you to go with what they think is good even though 7/8th's of your skill bar is perfectly fine... (W/Mo's should take note, this is far better done using Smite above all else...)

I myself have been berated for using the above skills and my sole utility skill is something damn good, I think, like Barbs, Rigor Mortis, Well of Ruin {my fave, damn thing is devastating in a mob of high armor melee}.

So... Do you think cookie cutter is the only way to go? And that anything else is just useless banter?

I think it's perfectly fine to use some modification of a cookie cutter build. If a warrior brings at least 3-4 of the cookie cutter skills, they're in good standing vs. one who brings like, maybe 1 cookie cutter skill... You shouldn't smash a warrior for trying something new if his effectiveness drops only moderately...

Abedeus · Feb 11, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

What cookie cutters? There are only ursans now.

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 11, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Whoa, I must be out of it if W/x can now bring anything they want and not get smashed over the head for it...

0_0

Jetdoc · Feb 11, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Honestly, it depends on what you're facing. In PvP, I would say that the skillset you've identified above is probably the most efficient you can bring, so deviating would have to have a really, really good reason (i.e. based on your team build/strategy).

In PvE, I don't believe there is any "cookie cutter" build that cannot be improved upon based on the enemies that you're facing. I personally deviate my PvE build quite often, which often allows me to solo (without heroes or henchmen) areas that the build you list above wouldn't have a chance at doing.

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 11, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Honestly, it depends on what you're facing. In PvP, I would say that the skillset you've identified above is probably the most efficient you can bring, so deviating would have to have a really, really good reason (i.e. based on your team build/strategy).

In PvE, I don't believe there is any "cookie cutter" build that cannot be improved upon based on the enemies that you're facing. I personally deviate my PvE build quite often, which often allows me to solo (without heroes or henchmen) areas that the build you list above wouldn't have a chance at doing.

I believe those PvE solo builds you mentioned have a term called solo-cookie cutter...

lol

The one's I've mentioned have been proven time and again by this community as the best (and supposedly ONLY) team builds specifically speaking... ^_^

Dr Strangelove · Feb 11, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

There are many viable templates, and many of them have flexible slots. Warriors tend to be a little less flexible than other classes, thanks to needing an IAS, a speed boost (in PvP), a decent combo of attack skills, and a rez. That really only leaves 1-2 flex slots.

From your posts, it seems you really like buffing physical attacks with the necro curses line. So, the question is, why not just run a support necro? Your warrior will pump out more damage, and your necro will pump out more curses. Everybody wins.

I generally don't care about bars in PvE as long as the user meets the bare minimum - IAS, max weapon mastery, some attack skills. If I'm setting up a team for PvP (disregarding AB) you damn well better believe I'm going to tell people to maximize their builds.

Tyla · Feb 11, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

What cookie cutters? There are only ursans now.

This.
12charsgogo

Sab · Feb 11, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

If you're in a group that's planning on getting through an area as efficiently as possible, then you're expected to bring the strongest build for your class. However, if you're playing by yourself and you get off on playing "original" builds, then that's fine too.

Btw it should be Frenzy on the PvP warrior bar.

Div · Feb 11, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If you're in a group that's planning on getting through an area as efficiently as possible, then you're expected to bring the strongest build for your class.

Or the one that's most idiot-proof. Aka ursan

In coordinated friends groups though, you'll be generally using your best build, and there's a reason why some builds are cookie cutter and everyone uses them--because they're good.

It's like calling dribbling the basketball with the palm side (using fingers) of your hand cookie cutter. I like to think of it as smart, because trying to dribble with the back of your hand is just retarded.

Jetdoc · Feb 11, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I believe those PvE solo builds you mentioned have a term called solo-cookie cutter...

lol

The one's I've mentioned have been proven time and again by this community as the best (and supposedly ONLY) team builds specifically speaking... ^_^

Solo-cookie cutter builds are some of the worst you can use, unless you're targeting a very specific area of the game.

Regarding team builds, the PvE skill template you've outlined is at its peak efficiency when surrounded by several enemies at once. The build is clearly subpar if you're dealing with enemy groups that do not tend to bunch up when aggroed, or if you're facing a primary, single opponent.

pygar · Feb 11, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I dont like the term "cookie-cutter"- usually the builds that get labeled this way are good builds comprised of good skills that get used over and over again because of the age old logic of "if it ain't broke dont fix it". Having said that, you dont want to be entirely predictable....but the "cookie cutter" skills and builds are what they are because of their dependability, and this many years into GW's existence people have tried pretty much every combo imaginable.

Crom The Pale · Feb 12, 2008, 03:49 AM // 03:49

A good player can make an inferior build very effective as long as they know how to use it.

A bad player can make an efficient build fail just as easily.

Being creative is fine just as long as you know who you are playing with and they know what to expect from you and your build. If they have to carry you and are not expecting to you deserve all the flames you recieve.

Whiskeyjack · Feb 12, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

A good player can make an inferior build very effective as long as they know how to use it.

A bad player can make an efficient build fail just as easily.

Nice soundbite, however a good player would not be running an inferior build in the first place.

**Marty Silverblade** · Feb 12, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

Nice soundbite, however a good player would not be running an inferior build in the first place.

Yes, but in theory, if you had 2 guilds in a GvG, one with good players with crap builds, and the other with bad players with good skills, the good players will win. Hence, it is more about the skill rather than the skills. We can't make you pro on forums, but we can do the next best thing and fix up your builds to make them efficient enough to hopefully get past any weak points in how good you are.

Remember that this is just a game, if you don't feel like running the best available thing, then don't. Imo as long as everyone in your team is ok with you not being 100% efficient, then feel free to run whatever you like.

RotteN · Feb 12, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

(PvP build cookie cutter template)
Disrupting Chop, Eviscerate {E}, Executioner's Strike, Bull's Strike, Flail, Rush, [utility from secondary, maybe], Res Skill

Flail is fail as axe warrior in PvP, learn to use frenzy
Executioner's strike can easely be swapped out for body blow if you run high strength. @ 13 str it's 2 dmg less than exec, versus 1 adrenalin less
rush can be replaced by enraging

and so forth ...

blue.rellik · Feb 12, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

Flail is fail as axe warrior in PvP, learn to use frenzy
Executioner's strike can easely be swapped out for body blow if you run high strength. @ 13 str it's 2 dmg less than exec, versus 1 adrenalin less
rush can be replaced by enraging

and so forth ...

Meh, the recharge on enraging isn't worth the adrenaline imho. Rush is just awesome since it's easily charged

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 13, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

There are many viable templates, and many of them have flexible slots. Warriors tend to be a little less flexible than other classes, thanks to needing an IAS, a speed boost (in PvP), a decent combo of attack skills, and a rez. That really only leaves 1-2 flex slots.

From your posts, it seems you really like buffing physical attacks with the necro curses line. So, the question is, why not just run a support necro? Your warrior will pump out more damage, and your necro will pump out more curses. Everybody wins.

I generally don't care about bars in PvE as long as the user meets the bare minimum - IAS, max weapon mastery, some attack skills. If I'm setting up a team for PvP (disregarding AB) you damn well better believe I'm going to tell people to maximize their builds.

Makes sense if you like running support necro heroes. My heroes consistently contain, prot monk, heal monk, Minion master. Maybe Gwen cause she's hot and can shut down mobs readily with her inspiration/curses setup but...

I don't like microing my heroes. The fact that their AI is rather sub-par doesn't help either. If I wanted to micro-manage, I'd play Warcraft 3 or some other RTS, Heroes are cool, but being forced to play them isn't in my 'be flexible' motto.

Also, I use the maximum flexibility a warrior build has. [one slot, oh joy...] And my builds are never 'gimped' by it since strength, the ONLY prime stat that actually affects damage, is useless in a spike build that only uses skills once in a while. DS loves strength since it's every damn hit, but strength really can only benefit skill spammers I think...

YES I know you spam Cyclone and Triple Chop but none of my skills benefit directly by strength stat anyway so... erm... yeah... That and i like my tactics shield a lot more

mrmango · Feb 22, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Heroes with damage buffs and stuff aren't that bad if you call them, no?
It's not a matter of microing, if you ask me. (Btw, henchmen monks are at least as good as 90% of monk heroes, if you're H/Hing).

You could even give your MM curse skills.

You can't see me · Feb 22, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

You could even give your MM curse skills.

No one's debating that you can, but is it really a good idea?

Flem · Feb 22, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

A good player can make an inferior build very effective as long as they know how to use it.

A bad player can make an efficient build fail just as easily.

Being creative is fine just as long as you know who you are playing with and they know what to expect from you and your build. If they have to carry you and are not expecting to you deserve all the flames you recieve.

This is probably this best thing written in this whole thread. Finally some logic comes to these forums.