Curse

Abedeus · Mar 07, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koudelka

I think I like this update after all.

*goes to cap Simple Thievery and interrupt something like Diamonshard Mist xd Or Crystal Hibernation, so I can tank Glint* xD

Cacheelma · Mar 07, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

There is no "right". Skill balances fix social 'problems', not technical problems. Everytime they switch something up they're nerfing down some sort of flavorplay, but it's only a matter of time until somebody else finds some new way to "exploit" the skill designs to dominate PvP for a little while.

You can't fix unbalanced skills because there's never going to be a perfect balance between players unless all the players have to use all the same things.

That's really all the "metagame" the PvPers hype up is: a race to find the handful of new builds that will annoy enough PvPers long enough to cry to ANET for another set of skill changes. In effect they're all working to stagnate their own play by focusing on a few new builds. It's really quite silly, IMHO, but to each their own (if only game companies would be smart enough to stop tying PvE and PvP skill behavior together... if only).

Wait, please help me understand this.

I used to think that this whole balance change thing is for PvP to reach the "balance" status (which is why I never complain about it as I kinda understand that for PvP to reflect players' skill, everything else should be "balanced"). Now you're telling me that's not the case, and that Anet make these changes simply to "change which skills PvP players should use at a given time"?!

If that's the case, I'd say PvE players have all the reasons in the world to complain, really.

Trub · Mar 07, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Quoting my guildie about someone who "any1 selling assassin tomb"

Quote:
Follow an assassin around... he'll have a tomb soon enough.

LOL
Ok, I got my chuckle for the morning!
But hey, we have an ass'n in our guild that learned the synergies very very well...and our guild leader enjoys having him in our team for the fast destruction he can cause.

OT:
I didn't want to mention the 'blessings' in my previous post for obvious reasons...but I think you and I are on the same mind set..."Give the PvE kids their uber leet blessings for finding the hawt lewts' other than letting us play the way the game was originaly meant to be played....balanced skills for all.

But, that's just a wild guess on my part.

Gun Pierson · Mar 07, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

It's nice they finally added the weapons. I don't like the 'watch yourself' and 'heal party' nerf though. Same for another 'death pact signet' nerf. Sure I will adjust again, like I'm doing for 3 years now.

I have no problem that skills need to be balanced for pvp, but I do have a problem the pve base gets hit by doing this. Seperate the two, they're two different kind of games!

Pve is like playing golf, you just need to get the ball in the hole, everybody can do that. But how many times does one have to hit the ball to get it into the hole, that's the real question. PvP is more like soccer and other teamsports. Tiger woods is an elite player in golf, Ronaldino in soccer. It would be silly if they called eachother noobs and if they had to play with the same ball size for example.

Dronte · Mar 07, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Watch yourself nerf and WoD change? Why??
Axe Rake and Axe Twist still useless!!

Others are nice, nerfs arent surprising after all (except WY and SP.. why make SP totally useless?)

Brayolnne · Mar 07, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

I think part of the reason PvE players have a problem is because, simply stated, many of us do not have the aggressive playing style of PvP players. Nor do we have as much familiarity and comfort in min-maxing attributes/skills/equipment. Despite playing for nearly two thousand hours only one character has completed one campaign (yes, I own them all). The other time being spent chatting, assisting new players, AFK, etc (heck I'm playing right now).

Initially I was annoyed with the changes because they're changes. Not because I have any real idea of their impact on the game in general or me specifically. It was more like "Hey, I just found something that works! Now you want to change it?" It's not so much about whether the game needs balancing so much as us less aggressive players feel like we're finally catching up to all the Ubers we see in town.

Game re-balancing efforts are perpetual; stopping only when Anet finally decides to turn off the servers. I also realize that PvP players are going to drive the game more than PvE players. PvPers stress test attributes/skills/equipment combos in a manner that PvEers do not. The problem is that this game can never be balanced. Foremost because PvPers will simply create new combos. More importantly because the only way Anet can accomplish balancing the game is to create a new, cross-profession skill:

Skill/Spell/Attack/Hex/etc
Energy Cost: 1
Casting Time: 1
Recharge Time: 1

When used this inflicts/reduces/absorbs/prevents/heals/etc 1 point of damage. Unless it's a hex/condition/interrupt/knockdown/etc in which case it lasts for 1 second.

In other words - once everything means nothing. Because the game will stagnate at that point.

odly · Mar 07, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Off topic, but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

I beg to differ.....
I still think that the 100+ skills that never see the light of day (Dark Fury is one good example) need to get some serious tweaks or buffs.

Dark Fury is actually being used a lot in builds centered arround physical damage with paragons and warriors. When they have a (hero) orders spammer along he'll bring dark fury as well.

Here's an example : Racthoh's build

Scary · Mar 07, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

He said... Men indeed its stupid to nerve the skills again

Cacheelma · Mar 07, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

So basically the whole thing is done not to "fix" the game (as I used to understand), but to shake things up for PvP players and prevent PvP games from becoming stagnated?

Really?

Then why has the PvP community died? I read the-guild-hall too and if you go there you will see that THAT community (which is supposed to be pvp community) has died a bleeding death. The main reason is because Anet keeps changing skills back and fourth and never get the skills to reach the "balance" state, which seems to be something they had wanted for a long time.

Then why do PvP players think that introducing new skills and new professions are bad things? Aren't they help prevent PvP games from becoming stagnated? They say new skills and new professions mess up the balanceness (or whatever the game has at the time) of the game and it's such a bad idea and will eventually kill the pvp games. Why and how?

Taurucis · Mar 07, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Alright, this goes to show how bad the Warrior tactics line was nerfed.

I just logged on to work on my skill capping, and my skill capping build is usually Ursan, Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Defensive Stance, Signet of Capture, Savage Slash, Healing Signet, and Sunspear Rebirth Signet... I have 2 empty spots in my bar. There are hardly any Tactics skills that do much anymore except for Desperation/Drunken Blow, Stances, Ripostes, and Healing Signet.

Don't tell me "l2adapt" when pretty much half an entire skill line just got shut down.

MithranArkanere · Mar 07, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Yah! At last a damage skill with conditional energy gain for Air!

And it's great against martial weapon users!
Most my air builds are against those!

Blind them! Weaken them! Crack their armors, and than gain energy when they try to attack! Nice!

Inde · Mar 07, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Really, as much as I like coming to this thread and deleting out 50+ comments every time.. I have to repeat:

Any insult to an individual or the community as a whole will be deleted. Please stay on topic and contributing.

Trub · Mar 07, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

But Inde...you have to admit...
The rock hard turd comment was priceless.

OT:
PvE and PvP will stay melded as one until GW2.
Then, we MAY see a seperation.
Until then..we roll with the punches, and get more creative with what we do have to work with on our skill bars (nerfed or not)

Numa Pompilius · Mar 07, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

I thought I was contributing?

So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining.

That PvP builds like D/A-spike have been destroyed is obvious, that was the whole point of the update, but I've yet to see anything about why the farmers are so upset beyond "I really liked that skill and now it's completely useless".
I've even asked twice in this thread what PvE builds, exactly, have been destroyed, but no takers.

EDIT: Maybe Assassin solo green farmer?

Taurucis · Mar 07, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining.

I liked to use Siphon Speed as a catchall hex on my Assassin. I can't really do that anymore, because I put about 2-5 ranks into Deadly Arts and I was pretty much good to go for a while.. now, I can't use Siphon Speed, so I have to find something else that won't be as effective.

When I do skill capping I run Ursan with some defensive shouts from Tactics, WY and shields up got nerfed hard so I can't really run the defensive shouts anymore.

What's worse than the skill nerfs is that it's almost impossible to find any cohesive reason behind them. Why was Watch Yourself so bad? It was perfectly fine before this nerf, and the nerf before this, and the nerf before that one, and the one before that... Someone said it's been nerfed 9 times in a row.

Wildi · Mar 07, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining

yeah because no one used mind blast/rodgort invocation, flame djinn's haste, mystic regeneration and what not in pve
awesome logic

Quote:

I've even asked twice in this thread what PvE builds, exactly, have been destroyed, but no takers.

I'm not surprised

Bryant Again · Mar 07, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

When I do skill capping I run Ursan with some defensive shouts from Tactics, WY and shields up got nerfed hard so I can't really run the defensive shouts anymore.

As I said earlier, you could drop WY and Sunspear Rebirth Signet for "Save Yourselves!" and Res signet.

Taurucis · Mar 07, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I'm capping in Cantha, with the lovely 2x damage bosses. With stuff like Elementalist or Ritualist bosses who can wipe out most of your party in a couple shots. Usually I'm sacrificing SRS for Pain Inverter, which means I can't bring save yourselves and I have to use Res signet instead. That would mean either Ursan has to go (which wouldn't be a good idea) or Pain Inverter has to go (Another bad idea) or Signet of Capture has to go (...)

Even if I'm not capping from bosses who do ridiculous amounts of damage, I always prefer a rez that can move the target to you (which is why I go /Mo for Rebirth if I can) because most of my GW'ing is spent with H/H, and my henchies aren't the best at running back to me when I rez them. I have saved myself many, many times from restarts by bringing SRS even when I could have used res sig.

The Way Out · Mar 07, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

The PvE Monk is looking pretty lame now... *sigh*... if they nerf heal party again, I may start playing a Rit.

Stockholm · Mar 07, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I thought I was contributing?

So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining.

That PvP builds like D/A-spike have been destroyed is obvious, that was the whole point of the update, but I've yet to see anything about why the farmers are so upset beyond "I really liked that skill and now it's completely useless".
I've even asked twice in this thread what PvE builds, exactly, have been destroyed, but no takers.

EDIT: Maybe Assassin solo green farmer?

It's not so much specific builds as the time it takes away from actual game play when you have to set up a new skill bar.
Some people who play for the casual fun, might not like to figure out a new skill bar when they have limited time to play (real life commitments and such), they rather spend that time actually playing the game.