Curse

Antheus · Feb 20, 2008, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

Lineage II has open PvP and it has over 17million subscribers, I wouldn't call that destroyed. It's only restricted in towns yet there is a penalty for killing someone but it doesn't stop people.

Sorry, no. It has 1 million subscribers.

And majority of this is Korean market, not because of PK, but because of grind.

Quote:

The PVP/PK element in Lineage 2 is actually its forte.

Same old exploits for getting rid of karma, same old griefing approach, same old PKing....

There really is nothing special about its system.

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It is 90% carebears vs 10% PvPers.

This is true for any game. This is why GW gets so much PvE attention. If you want numbers (make successful game), you go PvE. If you want niche market, you go PvP (UT, CS, Quake, Halo are all niche markets, as strange as this sounds). Sims however, are huge market.

Longasc · Feb 20, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

PK, Kill Steal, Kill Mobbing, Spawn camping...

Such things have no place in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Agreed.

GW was designed since the beginning to offer a game to those who wanted to get rid of such crap, which afflicted most of the other MMOs.

Now, after 3 years, someone comes to a GW forum, forgetting all the basic foundations of GW, and asks for this.

There are tons of PK, KS, KM games around.

GW is GW because such things are not allowed.

GW2 will have more open instances, where we can play with (or against?) other players.

I wonder how they want to prevent the latter three: Kill Steal, Kill Mobbing, Spawn camping.

GW was promoted with things like "no more spawn camping, no other player steals your kills" basically because you were all alone with your party in the instanced world.

But now they move towards a more open instance system where we can meet other people. Seems they now value the advantages of more possible social interaction above no kill stealing etc.

Basically, it was all just marketing talk promoting the limitations of the instanced world system... cough.

doinchi · Feb 20, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

How about a Duel System. Works just like trade, only 1 v 1 combat works only in explorable areas.

So if your arguing about a trade, Take It Outside. :P

pfaile · Feb 20, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

1 vs 1 pit areas would work, or areas that are known to have all hostile encounters, like roaming into Sherwood Forest for example . With plenty of markings that you are entering a hostile enviroment. (although imo, after awhile this would be as active as Jade Quarry

)

I just am not for the idea of random kills

Razorwood · Feb 20, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

90% or more stay in safe empire space - I will upload a pic, give me a moment.

There is no such thing as safe space you can still attack people, therefore the PvP is open, granted as I stated earlier you will also lose your ship but you can still do it. Also that pic is nearly 3 years old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

EVE has some 30k players (32k top iirc), but the graphic still looks like that!

35k seems to be the new average.

As for the graphics yes that is a map you showed an image of the actual game engine is nothing like that, and Eve just got a graphic engine update and it looks a hell of a lot better than GW does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Despite an update that shows lower densities of players more brightly, 0.0 is still mostly restricted to bigger companies. For most players the challenge is getting through the "gate camps" to 0.4 space and 0.0 and back. This might be intentional, some systems are real bottlenecks to huge areas. Once you are through, you are quite safe - nobody will be there to go for you.

Of course it's intentional to camp gates, some people do it purely to kill people, others do it to defend there region.

And once you're threw a gate camp I wouldn't really say you're safe there tends to be a lot of roaming gangs in 0.0 space. At least the area(s) i'm in.

And there is also "War Declaration" if you declare War on a play corp (Like a guild) you can attack them freely anywhere with out CONCORD (NPC police force) turning up and destroying you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Sorry, no. It has 1 million subscribers.

And majority of this is Korean market, not because of PK, but because of grind.

I was only going off what I read here and it said 17million.

I also fail to see what the majority being Korean has to do with anything.

Mark Nevermiss · Feb 20, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Mark, the problem L2 has is that all things drop loot upon death - unless they changed it since I played. This means that someone that does nothing wrong still drops things from their inventry - including any adana earned. This was what always frustrated me when I played on any character but what eventually became my main. Most players don't have too much on them but their adana. And if they had been out farming for a little while it could be a reasonable amount. So you get pk'ed 100 times by the same guy they could and would pick you dry.

The karma system didn't and doesn't work too well because a lot of the people who pk don't care. More to the point if you have a neat grind spot getting rid of it, while time consuming, is hardly impossible.

WoW tried a similar system very soon after release when players complained about the same thing. I'm not sure whether it is still in place, would need a WoW player to confirm this. But basically it was a failure precisely because the people ganking and pking didn't care about it. Their fun was in ruining the gaming experience of other players.

This is exactly the problem any game with worldwide pvp faces. Pking is not about testing skills, it's about griefing. And given the general immaturity of a large chunk of the mmo population it happens far too frequenly frustrating a lot of players.

Nah you dont drop anything if you dont have karma and die in PVP, its only if u get killed by monsters that you may drop, and you never drop gold.

I think all critical quest places in GW2 will be instanced still. Open persistent spaces will be areas where people grind.
They mentioned that certain enemies such as dragons would be fought in these areas because they would require huge numbers of players.
My prediction is that PVP and PVE will still be separate in GW2, unless they add some frontier areas where say Charr and maybe humans would fight against each other and so on.

In games like Lineage II, the game was designed around conflicts. The dev's want players to fight over in game things: castles, fortresses, hunting areas, raid bosses... you name it.
PK'ing is not as widespread as many people think. If you are harassed by someone from some clan you simply join their enemies and so on. The game is hardly playable outside of an active clan anyway.
I spent about 10 levels clanless minding my own business and not once during that period did I have to fight, except once when I had to pk someone who pk'ed a friend of mine. But believe it or not without PVP such games become boring fast.
I later joined a clan called RK who fought against the rest of the server for a while and it was the most fun I ever had in any online game. I only left when my clan collapsed.
Btw if you visit L2guru, the sister site of this GWGuru, you will see players there are mostly trashtalking each other over fights and stuff instead of discussing game content LOL

Longasc · Feb 20, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

There is no such thing as safe space you can still attack people, therefore the PvP is open, granted as I stated earlier you will also lose your ship but you can still do it. Also that pic is nearly 3 years old.

As I said, after 3 years it still looks like that. You could bother to go online and make a screenshot yourself if you really need to proof this to yourself.

Calling empire space open pvp is quite far-fetched, come on. Corp Wars are your best chance to pvp there, agreed, but fighting just does not happen in Empire Space, and you know that. You can fly around and not notice nobody fighting for ages and not even the graph showing any ships being destroyed - not even by NPCs.

Razorwood · Feb 20, 2008, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

As I said, after 3 years it still looks like that. You could bother to go online and make a screenshot yourself if you really need to proof this to yourself.

I don't need any proof, I spend a lot of time in 0.0 space and I know from experience how populated it can get. If you really want an up to date screen shot i'll be happy to take one tonight once i'm home (6 hours or so from now)

Fleet battles of over 100 a side are fairly common in 0.0 the biggest thing currently killing this is the lag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Calling empire space open pvp is quite far-fetched, come on. Corp Wars are your best chance to pvp there, agreed, but fighting just does not happen in Empire Space, and you know that. You can fly around and not notice nobody fighting for ages and not even the graph showing any ships being destroyed - not even by NPCs.

Fighting does happen in Empire space but random PKing tends to be trade hubs and highly populated missioning systems. You only have to fly somewhere like Jita (Trade hub) and Didoixe (Mission hub - I spelt that wrong since i'm going from memory).

I said it can happen not that it was common place.

Avarre · Feb 20, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Wouldn't work in a GuildWars system, too many people would roll water Eles and snare people for the hell of it. Not to mention it would absolutely enforce grouped teams as GW characters aren't balanced for solo play and H/H teams would get slaughtered.

Would be bad for getting new players into the game.

Kityn · Feb 20, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

No pvp in PVE at all. PVP should always be an option and not something you have to worry about while doing quests and such. GW2 will have structured GVG and the Mists for mass PVP.

RiKio · Feb 20, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

Le gusta ó no le gusta?

Pues no, no me gusta.

If PK becomes avaliable in PVE, then I will stop playing. This would be the downfall of GW.

Antheus · Feb 20, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

I was only going off what I read here and it said 17million.

Number of copies sold. Same as GW sold over 4 million, but has 100k concurrent, and perhaps 500k active.

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I also fail to see what the majority being Korean has to do with anything.

Historically, difference between Eastern and Western MMO design has been too huge, and few titles managed to bridge this gap.

The community is also considerably different. Bots are generally frowned upon in western MMOs, but in eastern they are tolerated, and sometimes even embraced.

Similarily, western markets are still subscription-bound, whereas Eastern markets are almost exclusively micro-payment based.

These differences are important when evaluating success of certain game. A title that may be big somewhere, does not mean it's necessarily a good example.

For example, WoW is often touted as big and successful. But it's only a fraction in size to a more casual MMO with 50 million registered users and 500k concurrent - more concurrent than most MMOs have sold copies (which, incidentally, is where the future of online games lies).

So it's important to compare things in context. Big can be small, and vice versa. Raw numbers don't mean anything, and when it comes to MMOs, Eastern and Western markets literally are a world apart.

Teutonic Paladin · Feb 20, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I think just about everyone who agrees with PKing in Guild Wars will be against it when they realize how many people will be rolling griefing and ganking builds just to screw with people. Even if you can survive, it's still going to suck.

N1ghtstalker · Feb 20, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by doinchi

How about a Duel System. Works just like trade, only 1 v 1 combat works only in explorable areas.

So if your arguing about a trade, Take It Outside. :P

now that i like
but you gotta accept the fight first of the other guy

MSecorsky · Feb 20, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

When I started GW the lack of an ability to PK and the lack of need to fight over drops (unassigned in other games) was a breath of fresh air.

Now it's essential for life.

If it's PK you want, go back to Diablo. Let the adults play here.

bigtime102 · Feb 20, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

The one thing i like about GW is that its my own game and i can choose whether to invite people into or not. This is why i like instances too. This is why I dont want persistant worlds with other PVE players invading my game i payed for and definately not PVP players to spoil my fun.

Pleikki · Feb 20, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Am i blind or wasnt in there guild wars? :/ We suck!

Coraline Jones · Feb 21, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I am amazed that this thread is still somehow strangely alive as if Guild Wars has even a remote chance of implementing a "new" PvP system.

First of all, there's already plenty of discussion about how PvE and PvP will never get along on Guild Wars. The two sides will never like each other, because they are so entirely different. For instance, mesmer e-denial actually has a chance to work in PvP, but in PvE it is guaranteed to not work at all. Meteor Shower is a skill that shows up in half of the PvE elementalist builds, but it's a total fail in PvP.

If you really want some proof, Factions was originally designed to encourage PvP and PvE together. That's why there's a 10K Faction quest on both the Kurzick and Luxon side--it was a subtle ploy to get people into the low-end arenas (AB, Fort Aspenwood, or the dead Jade Arena) and try out "casual" PvP, with the intent of them moving to more serious arenas. I think that everybody can tell just how successful that plan went. I'd say that was about as well liked as putting locked gates on towns.

The bottom line is, sticking an option to PK players in Guild Wars is only going to encourage griefing and annoy the PvE fans more than ever. If you think that the PUG is dead, wait until you include the option that you can kill or be killed by anybody, anywhere. I'm sure lots of people will sign up a random stranger into their group, and just hope that they aren't there to just screw them up or steal their loot. And worst of all, rather than higher level players helping out lower level players, it will be a baited trap so Level 20's can gank a bunch of newbies for a cheap thrill.

swthemer · Feb 21, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

No me gusta. Player Killing is annoying to lower level players and a hassle for role players. That was one of the reasons that I preferred Guild Wars over other MMO's and I think throwing in PKing may ruin it for me.

Taki · Feb 21, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Ok "no PvP in my PvE" looks to be the general message.

And it seems as if most would be happy with a complete divide between PvE and PvP. On the surface having one unaffected by the other might seem like a good idea since they can be addressed with no concerns of the other and a farming/casual build won't have to fear changes from PvP abuse. But that would be focusing too heavily on the 'nerfs' or failed balances. Don't forget that all of the positive effects that they had or could of had on each other would also be lost at seperation.

I understand that for many the two game styles mix like oil and water but to me it's like drinking coffee out of one cup then sipping cream & sugar out of another, or instead of a PB&J sandwich, eating a slice of bread with PB then a slice with J; they just go better together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

...

The reason e-denial and similar things don't work in PvE is because of PvE design and the fact that they are advanced tactics made for intelligent opposition, not a smash-n-grab environment. The opposite is true for meteor shower, aoe, tanking, etc. PvE is supposed to be enjoyable for casual players, allowing them to achieve something within a reasonable timeframe while providing as little frustration as possible and with the hope that the players learn a thing or two on the way that will help them if/when they seek deeper gameplay or higher challenges/competition.

Perhaps there's not as many people like myself who enjoy both as there is people who prefer to stick to one side but some of you really need to stop mouthing off about PvPers this and PvEers that. You're making yourselves look worse than the filth you're talking about. There is no 'PvPers' can't get along with PvEers bs; an arrogant, elitist, or failure of a person, is not liked no matter which side of the game he plays. You would see this is you could manage to find a way to become less self-involved and/or pull your head out your ass.