Curse

Cacheelma · Mar 13, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

I'm NOT saying 10 million people can't be wrong. I'm just saying that, 10 million people enjoy WoW THE WAY IT IS, who are you to judge them?

And you made some other good points. But let me tell you this: Whoever told you you need PvP gear to raid/do heroics is an IDIOT. PvP gears are good for PvP. It's just that it's easier to obtain than PvE gears and basically better than nothing. At the end of the day if you want the best gear for PvE you MUST get them from PvE.

Arduin · Mar 13, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraphim

Lol, have you ever even looked at someone else in a town? Uber detailed armour may look sweet out in an instance where you're not going to have to run into anything but patrolling mobs and the other 7 people or AI you're with.. in town GW textures look just as bad, in fact in some cases a lot worse than any other MMO on the market. Why? Because they're not designed to be seen in a persistent world.

Thankfully, KSMod takes care of this

lizards · Mar 13, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

I'm NOT saying 10 million people can't be wrong. I'm just saying that, 10 million people enjoy WoW THE WAY IT IS, who are you to judge them?

And you made some other good points. But let me tell you this: Whoever told you you need PvP gear to raid/do heroics is an IDIOT. PvP gears are good for PvP. It's just that it's easier to obtain than PvE gears and basically better than nothing. At the end of the day if you want the best gear for PvE you MUST get them from PvE.

Yeah ok, I mean I'm fairly new to WOW, I only really started playing it because with GW 2 coming there's not much to do but title grind, which I find insanely boring and some of my good friends play which makes it fun for me to play with them. I don't judge anyone for playing WOW, I actually enjoy it, BUT I do enjoy GW too, and there are a lot of things like I mentioned that make GW better to me. There are great things about both, which is why graphics give GW the edge to me. I mean you can't tell me a Voltaic Spear or Zodiac Sword or a pyroclastic axe doesn't look cooler than pretty much anything in WOW.

I also don't get why people say that GW isn't a real MMO and WOW is, when you pretty much need a party to do ANYTHING in GW, even if it is HH, I actully prefer real people. In WOW you can solo the whole thing pretty much without any help whatsoever, I did (yeah I have a rogue which I know is easier, but you can do it with most anything).

Tijger · Mar 13, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Well noted, Tijger, which is why I changed the word "wins" to "excels." WoW 'wins' in terms of financial success, but both GW and WoW are amazing games, both tailored for different audiences.

Hm, I wonder about the target audiences, though, I know plenty of people who own both WoW and GW and mostly they'll end up choosing one over the other for the majority of their time, one of the main reasons I hear for going to WoW is "all my friends are playing it" making it a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy ofcourse, like the man said, 10 million flies cannot be wrong, after all

I dont see an actual difference in terms of demographics between the two though.

To be honest, I dont think its worth debating which one is 'better' because it always comes down to personal preferences, some say its graphics, others will cite community etc etc, there is no better imho between WoW and GW, I just happen to enjoy GW more and decided that the time I have for gaming (MMO wise) would be more enjoyable with GW for me.

Bryant Again · Mar 13, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizards

*snip* It's just if you want to do any heroics, people insist that you have pvp gear, so you basically have to do the pvp.

Holy crap, what server is this on? People may insist on you getting PvP gear because it's pretty decent, but you can still do fine in heroics with greens and blues. I'd say avoid PUGs for a while.

Regarding mismatched armors: That's one of the things I prided GW having over WoW - that is until GW:EN hit with the chaos gloves and other lone pieces...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizards

You guys think graphics don't matter, but I couldn't even play WOW at first after playing GW because if it.

It's more personal than anything. I'm still playing Doom actively to this day. The graphics are incredibly outdated, sure, but I'm not gonna let that get in the way of an outrageously fun game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Thankfully, KSMod takes care of this

Unfortunately, happy mods like this aren't supported by ANet. While they aren't penalized either, it's basically them saying "we don't have to ban you for this."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

Hm, I wonder about the target audiences, though, I know plenty of people who own both WoW and GW and mostly they'll end up choosing one over the other for the majority of their time, one of the main reasons I hear for going to WoW is "all my friends are playing it" making it a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy ofcourse, like the man said, 10 million flies cannot be wrong, after all

I dont see an actual difference in terms of demographics between the two though.

Biggest differences are in terms of gameplay and expectations. In Guild Wars, it's intended for you to just play through and enjoy the story. Straight from ANet's lips, too: They never expected anyone to stay in the PvE world for so long. It wasn't tailored for endgame or repitivity - granted, you could play through areas over and over again, but there's no real driving incentive or likewise to keep you going.

This isn't a bad thing, of course. This is how nearly every RPG is: Be a hero, play through the story, enjoy. Guild Wars is just a cooperative RPG that can only be played online. It doesn't have the gear progression MMO players enjoy, nor does it have the high-levels and end game. And again, not having things is not a bad thing - but it does become bad when people label your game an MMO, which is one of the things that I truly believe has hurt GW over time.

HuntMaster Avatar · Mar 13, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

I'm NOT saying 10 million people can't be wrong. I'm just saying that, 10 million people enjoy WoW THE WAY IT IS, who are you to judge them?

And you made some other good points. But let me tell you this: Whoever told you you need PvP gear to raid/do heroics is an IDIOT. PvP gears are good for PvP. It's just that it's easier to obtain than PvE gears and basically better than nothing. At the end of the day if you want the best gear for PvE you MUST get them from PvE.

actually its not 10 mil people, its 10 mil sold copies.

players who own multipul accounts
players who have been banned and had to buy new accounts
bots
gold sellers

so not even 10 mil. just like gw doesnt really have 5 mil players either.

Bryant Again · Mar 13, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

It's actually 10 million active accounts, and the definition of "active account" is stated in the press release.

jackie · Mar 13, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizards

in WOW pvp really takes no skill, just half a brain and good gear.

heheh mmm yeah, my 3vs3 arena team ladder status was in top-5 on my server and in top-40 in whole Europe pretty much whole last year with a combination of classes that wasn't ever FotM (MS-Warr (me), Resto druid, Shadow Priest if someone wanted to know.) Competition is as tough as it is in GwG in GW pre-factions/during factions in my opinion. There are PvP arena teams & individual players in WoW that have same status as for example Last Pride, IQ, WM, tE, Valandor etc. have/had here.
I rerolled a rogue and started fresh though. With that experience I can tell you that gear does matter of course in a game that rewards players with gear upgrades. But I can tell you also that go ahead buy some high-end character from ebay that has very good PvP gear and go PvP, you will fail with a quite epic style I'm afraid.

Skill matters as much as in WoW than in GW, gear is just an additional factor that alters the hard stats i.e your armour value, dps. A skilled mage with average gear can & will win against a mage that lacks in strategic planning and only has better armour. Same goes for every other class in that game.

What GW has and WoW doesn't, the balance of every class. In this case with balance I mean the fact that every class in GW has possibilities to beat each other 1on1...Para vs Mesmer, Monk vs Warr, whatever. In my opinion that's quite nice feature. In WoW it's slightly more r/p/s, some classes have advantages against others. For example in WoW, a plate wearing warrior with a huge 2-h mace means trouble for a sneaky little leather wearing rogue that excels in killing robe wearing casters mostly. The rogue can win but favor of battle gods is with the big bad warr. However WoW is not balanced around 1on1 at least that's what Blizzard developers have said many times, PvP whirls around group vs group so players just have to work together to achieve victory.

All in all, it's not right to say that PvP does not need much skill in WoW. You can check some PvP videos on youtube by some famous players to see the real action.

lizards · Mar 13, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

[QUOTE=Bryant Again]Holy crap, what server is this on?

Maelstrom

[QUOTE=jackie]

What GW has and WoW doesn't, the balance of every class.

That's my biggest gripe, it's completely unbalanced. And the fact that Paladins and Druids are all but invincible.

Tarun · Mar 13, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Frankly, WoW takes more skill for PvPing than GW ever has or will. GW2 hopefully will change that.

Balan Makki · Mar 13, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

Skill matters as much as in WoW than in GW, gear is just an additional factor that alters the hard stats i.e your armour value, dps. A skilled mage with average gear can & will win against a mage that lacks in strategic planning and only has better armour. Same goes for every other class in that game.

.

This may apply to you, but the few years of WoW PvP only proved to me that the size of your stats directly translated to your E-Peenability. This goes for the MAJORITY of WoW players. Not the few at the top who have no life but to farm fabulous stats, then wage war against other No Lifers, or for laughs, wipe and one-shot teams of noobs and casual players. Many No Lifers do have skill, then couple that with No Lifer Stat disparity and you have a super Borked PvP system. There is a small skill requirement in WoW, but it is trumped big by Stats and the amount of time a player can grind for them--enter the No Lifer Southpark King. Rather than watch a You Tube Vid, Watch the Soutpark WoW episode, much more realistic, especially the part about living in the basement, needing someone to hold your bedpan near your backside. If you are speaking for No Lifers, you point is partly valid, speaking for the other 9.999 Million you strike out.

WoW PvP is a joke. It is completely inaccessible. (unless, of course you don't have a real life to speak of) To argue it is on par with Guild Wars is major error in judgement (putting it kindly).

I would love for all you WoW fans to paste your time waisted--in days--not hours as a qualifier for your common sense. Paste it as your signature. Paste it to your forehead when you go out in public. Tell your parents, your next prospective employer. Tell us! I'd bet you 10 to 1 GW wins again for not Sucking the life out of it's players, with cheap grinds and tricks that make you feel special for having wasted your life via pixels. . . . .

My last day playing WoW I watch an legendary equipped Warrior, almost single handedly kill an entire 40 man raid in alterac Valley. The match was won in under 5 minutes.

Bryant Again · Mar 13, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

WoW PvP is a joke. It is completely inaccessible.

1. Talk to battlemaster
2. Select to join "First Available"
3. Wait 1-5 minutes (battlegroup dependent)
4. Kill other faction

Seems pretty accessible to me. While you may have to "grind" for gear in WoW, you likewise have to "grind" for skills and items in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

I would love for all you WoW fans to paste your time waisted--in days--not hours as a qualifier for your common sense.

Sorry, all I've got is days enjoyed. I would count time waiting for raids to start as wasted, but I'd just go windowed mode and check my email or the forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

I'd bet you 10 to 1 GW wins again for not Sucking the life out of it's players, with cheap grinds and tricks that make you feel special for having wasted your life via pixels. . . . .

And Guild Wars isn't known to addict it's players? Lemme show you one of my fav threads, and one of my favorite pics (not me, and he wasn't afking most of it.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

My last day playing WoW I watch an legendary equipped Warrior, almost single handedly kill an entire 40 man raid in alterac Valley. The match was won in under 5 minutes.

Unless the winning side had 100 people (cap per side is 40), it's impossible to down Drek that fast, especially when you factor in mount time, time to cap the towers, time to cap RH, and the time to down Galv.

Darkobra · Mar 13, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

I would love for all you WoW fans to paste your time waisted

Guild Wars: 714 hours
World of Warcraft: 419 hours

But it is quite cute to see you on a vendetta against one game, claiming it's a "waist" of time, yet preaching about another game as if it was a godsend.

Oh, and this was only since installing XFire. I have been with Guild Wars since its beta.

doudou_steve · Mar 13, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

It's just a question of taste. Some players left guild wars because the level cap is 20, *too low for them and boring after* they maybe not understand the real concept or just don't like it so they go play WoW and enjoy it.

Personnaly, i began to play WoW 1 month ago and really love it for pve. But i have to admit that pvp s!ks for me hard, you can't do much ''combos'' an don't need/require a real strategy so in my case, maybe i don't understand the ''pvp concept of WoW'(or because i began to play it not so long ago) .

But it will keep me waiting for GW2 which look awesome atm. I'm sure they will keep the skill>gears system even if it will be non-instanced. And combine the pvp of GW with the Pve of WoW, you get the ultimate game imo.

And like i said it's a question of taste it's like 2 childrens yelling to each other other :
kid 1:''This meal is good''
kid 2:'' No it's disgusting''
kid 1'' You have no taste''
Kid 2: It's like vomit, how can you like that?! ''

etc...

Don't flame me, i just said my opinion

Balan Makki · Mar 13, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Seems pretty accessible to me. While you may have to "grind" for gear in WoW, you likewise have to "grind" for skills and items in GW.

Grind for skills? I'm guessing you are just baiting (like me). Grinding for Gear in WoW VS Grinding for skills??? For someone that claims to play both games. . . Ah Bryant, you disappoint me. . .

Such a weak comparison. Inaccessible in the sense that you need to grind to compete. Grinding in WoW to maintain a competitive edge takes No Lifer status, as I so suggested above. I'm a very casual player in GW and my skill bar took all of an evenings grind VS No Lifer status in WoW.

Quote:

And Guild Wars isn't known to addict it's players? Lemme show you one of my fav threads, and one of my favorite pics (not me, and he wasn't afking most of it.)

You have no idea do you? If that thread were in WoW forums . . you would see players posting near thousand Days played, not hours. . . I'll go over and start one, just for fun. See what turns up.

Quote:

Unless the winning side had 100 people (cap per side is 40), it's impossible to down Drek that fast, especially when you factor in mount time, time to cap the towers, time to cap RH, and the time to down Galv.

Here ya go. . Alterac valley in around 3 minutes , And another, You Tube special just for you. Thats only one way to win it. I've been with teams that have done it several different ways. Point being E-Peen Stat stroking in is the downfall of WoW PvP.

Oh, and Darkobra, you'll want to try a bit of PvP with that many hours. You're obviously a real contender. . . at least I'm glad to see one WoW player actually has enough common sense not to waist their Life playing. Only about 20 days of your life spent in WoW land. Time for the rest of you WoW zealots to fess up. How many hours you in for?? No matter, I'll get a good cross section on the WoW forums. Probably a good thread already started, I'll post back shortly.

DivineEnvoy · Mar 13, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

So we have another World of Warcraft versus Guild Wars thread.

Once again, most the arguments are just (Guild Wars/World of Warcraft) is better because it has superior (contents/graphics/skills/etc) to it.

Let's look at contents for example. This term can be rather ambiguious; the amount of contents can be defined into two categories, the amount of contents that are available to the game and the amount of contents that can be accessible by the corresponding players. And of course, this amount would change significantly based on what type players the given statement is targetting as well as which definition each person goes with; hence, we already suffer from an instability to our premises.

Secondly, let us consider the following cases:

1. "I am a full time Guild Wars player, and I will only play Guild Wars because I like it better than anything else."

2. "I play both World of Warcraft and Guild Wars, but I prefer Guild Wars."

3. "I play both World of Warcraft and Guild Wars, but I prefer World of Warcraft."

4. "I only play World of Warcraft, and I like it better than any other game."

As we can see from these different perspectives each players have, we can tell that no matter what the actual premises can be, and what points we are agreeing or disagreeing to, a different conclusion will be made to which game is better, since people's opinions are already biased. Thus, this is an instability to the conclusions people make.

Most the arguments here are just a quarrel, and it won't get anywhere. Can someone explain to me what's the point of this thread?

Bryant Again · Mar 14, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Grind for skills? I'm guessing you are just baiting (like me). Grinding for Gear in WoW VS Grinding for skills??? For someone that claims to play both games. . . Ah Bryant, you disappoint me. . .

Such a weak comparison.

I like how you call my comparison "weak" and forget to back up the claim.

When you start out in Guild Wars you have nothing unlocked. So if you want to start straight from PvP, totally fresh, then you're going to start with very little. In order to get much better skills to build much better builds you need Balth faction, and the only way to get that is through playing PvP...Sounds a lot like WoW.

The difference in here being that you can unlock the PvP skills and item sets through PvE. The same can somewhat be said of WoW in the effect that you can take your PvP gear into PvE areas, although the PvE varients are going to be better in the PvE situations and likewise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Inaccessible in the sense that you need to grind to compete. Grinding in WoW to maintain a competitive edge takes No Lifer status, as I so suggested above. I'm a very casual player in GW and my skill bar took all of an evenings grind VS No Lifer status in WoW.

I've been able to get my S3 shoulders and still be have a life, so I don't see where this "no lifer" thing is coming from. You need a 2000 rating to purchase the item, not to wear it. This "no lifer status" would apply to back in the day with the PvP ranks and titles, but we'll get back to that near the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

You have no idea do you?

My point is that you're assuming that all of this time is "wasted." You are not in any position to say if people are wasting or have wasted their time. I consider it a waste of my time farming titles in GW, but I don't try to tell that to the person going for R6 KoaBD. They can spend their time however they wish and I am not one to tell them otherwise. And hell, they may be *gasp* enjoying themselves doing it.

Time is wasted if the player feels its wasted, and you are not that player. You are *a* player and may only voice *your* opinion, not anyone else's. If you feel that all of your time was wasted in WoW then I'm sorry, but don't attempt to apply that experience to anyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Here ya go. . Alterac valley in around 3 minutes , And another, You Tube special just for you. Thats only one way to win it. I've been with teams that have done it several different ways.

Thank you for the links. I looked for the "three minute AV" but had found nothing. That said, when I made my claim that you could not win AV under 10 minutes I was not taking into account a game version that is about a year and a half old. The game has changed much from the "your life or PvP gear" that WoW used to be. I don't recall any warrior "PWNING FACE," though.

I won't deny that AV is still a problem for the Horde, however. Hopefully the reduction of the health to the two main Ally baddies will help things a bit. At least I can leave with the comfort that Alliance aren't, well, too good.

Balan Makki · Mar 14, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Most the arguments here are just a quarrel, and it won't get anywhere. Can someone explain to me what's the point of this thread?

Baiting for Trolls? or Trolling for Bait. Can't decide. Mostly, there does seem to be a lot of opinion, and personal preference.

My personal prefernce or opinion, they are both great games, for different reasons, but it's bad juju to doo doo in another man's yard--you'll get shot at.

>>>WoW is full of lemmings and mindless girbles, 10 million of em. All grinding on the endless wheel of Stat laced Evercrack >>>

Balan Makki · Mar 14, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I like how you call my comparison "weak" and forget to back up the claim.

When you start out in Guild Wars you have nothing unlocked. So if you want to start straight from PvP, totally fresh, then you're going to start with very little. In order to get much better skills to build much better builds you need Balth faction, and the only way to get that is through playing PvP...Sounds a lot like WoW.

The difference in here being that you can unlock the PvP skills and item sets through PvE. The same can somewhat be said of WoW in the effect that you can take your PvP gear into PvE areas, although the PvE varients are going to be better in the PvE situations and likewise.

I've been able to get my S3 shoulders and still be have a life, so I don't see where this "no lifer" thing is coming from. You need a 2000 rating to purchase the item, not to wear it. This "no lifer status" would apply to back in the day with the PvP ranks and titles, but we'll get back to that near the end.

But how long has it taken to gear up your toon in WoW to be PvP competitive? And how long does it take me to PvP a decent Skill bar in GW? Four maybe five hours? This is what I'm getting at. If you want to PvP in WoW, you have no choice but to grind/play near 3000 hours to be competitive, near the top of the food chain. What does a PvP player do who does not have 100+ days of their life to waist in WoW? They become fodder for the Southpark styled No Lifer. PvP in WoW is borked. Except for some nice map design WoW PvP has nothing to offer the Competitive PvPer, unless they can somehow check out of reality and spend a very unhealthy amount of time farming for gear.

There is only one reason to play WoW: S3 Shoulders and other farmable gear. If gear did not exist in WoW it would be the hollowest of MMOs ever conceived. Without Stat farming WoW, and the addiction that accompanies it, would be nothing. as would Everquest, and 50 other pretenders, but Guild Wars? What what does GW have that has brought players here, being that there are only Vanity items to farm for? Something I've never done, though I still enjoy the game immensely, even though there are no required grinds. Titles are required Grinds?? Fancy Armor is Required Grind?? You of all people, claiming that you enjoy both games, should know the obvious difference.

(Note: there are several threads on days played at WoW forum, averaging around 200-300 days /played. Some as high and higher than 500 . . .)

Quote:

Time is wasted if the player feels its wasted, and you are not that player. You are *a* player and may only voice *your* opinion, not anyone else's. If you feel that all of your time was wasted in WoW then I'm sorry, but don't attempt to apply that experience to anyone else.

For comparision sake, Players are herded into Time Sinks and Grinds in WoW. In GW you can do the Grindy thing as an option. WoW can't even be compared to GW in terms of Grind and Time Sink, and you are crazy to even venture a valid argument, being that one is optional the other Not. Especially for PVP.

Quote:

I won't deny that AV is still a problem for the Horde, however. Hopefully the reduction of the health to the two main Ally baddies will help things a bit. At least I can leave with the comfort that Alliance aren't, well, too good.

Seems the most recent changes now favor Horde. You know, the new AV that is an obvious rip from GW?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan

Blizzard's next MMO will be a Guild Wars Clone.

lizards · Mar 14, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

You have no idea do you? If that thread were in WoW forums . . you would see players posting near thousand Days played, not hours. . . I'll go over and start one, just for fun. See what turns up.
Here ya go. . Alterac valley in around 3 minutes , And another, You Tube special just for you. Thats only one way to win it. I've been with teams that have done it several different ways. Point being E-Peen Stat stroking in is the downfall of WoW PvP.

Wow, I've heard how much closer horde starts up the battlefield and now I see why, no wonder they always win. In that video though, they totally hacked it and started early, you can tell by the way you don't see any Alliance until they are all the way up... I've seen it happen, Horde has a bunch of hax that let them start in early.