Curse

reetkever · Mar 21, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

If it didn't need balance, why were the other PvE skills hit (Seed of Life/Intensity/TNtF)? While Ursan is still...well...there?

Cause every profession can use Ursan and not every profession can use the Monk skill for example.

Lordhelmos · Mar 21, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

The retarded thing about PvE nowdays is that you can't even get into a group without Ursan. If I wasn't in a guild, pugging without Ursan would be impossible. Yeah sure, like thats really a big issue right? That 90% of the players in PvE are forced to bring ONE specific overpowered skill or get completely nixed from the party. Great promotion of diversity there.

But according to recent skill balances, thats such a small issue when compared to how blatantly overpowered powershot is in PvP.

It's a shame that one of the most diverse skill systems in a MMO/Co-op RPG is completely wasted on one sided skill balances that choose skills that players should be running on overdone-buffs/nerfs, rather promoting the idea that players should have more freedom in what they can run if they don't wanna be facesmashed in PvP or booted from a pick up group.

It's like ANET has spent two years building the hyper galactic earth defense force Guildwars battlecruiser Z, complete with enough pew pew power to make everyone happy and save the universe.... but now that the project's potential as been maximized, they make the epic decision of putting a drunken monkey with an IQ of 2 in front of the control panel.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 21, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. Noid

How does this explain this thread?

Conditioned reflex. They ALWAYS complain at ALL updates.
If you check the thread you'll see that they're not complaining about this update, they're complaining about all the others.
It's simply a knee-jerk response now.

EDIT: Plus the general "averse to all change" thing, of course.

A. Noid · Mar 21, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Conditioned reflex.

EDIT: Plus the general "averse to all change" thing, of course.

Gotcha. And understandable.

I guess the same could be said for the PvP crowd?

As in: 'Rangers should concentrate on utility- not damage!'

-ANoid

Edit for speeling....ugh!

Lordhelmos · Mar 21, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Cause every profession can use Ursan and not every profession can use the Monk skill for example.

The fact that every profession can use Ursan is a problem.

The fact that some professions can use Ursan better than others is a problem (Warriors vs. Mesmers).

The fact that Ursan teams can wipe any Elite area in the game with relatively no effort is a problem.

The fact that pick up groups refuse to allow anyone into a group who isn't maxed on Norn faction because of the effectiveness of Ursan is a problem.

The fact that the PvE community has become completely reliant on using Ursan to clear high end zones is a problem.

The fact that people who don't have EoTN or refuse to become brainwashed by the Ursan maddness are completely kicked out of pick up groups is a problem.

The fact that Ursan destroys any sort of build diversity in the PvE environment is a problem.

~

Anet's stand on Ursanway: There is no problem.

~

In reality, the fact that Ursan blessing is so effective and universal is a huge issue. It's like playing a FPS game with nothing but rocket launchers, and people who don't max Norn for Ursan get pistols. With this kind of setup, what players do you think are going to get chewed up and turned into birdfood? The answer is obvious.

Sure its fine that EVERYONE and their mom can get a rocket launcher in PvE. Anet seems to think that giving everyone a super huge gun is going to solve all the balance problems in PvE. However, what happens when people that don't have that gun or don't like playing it get on the server?

Ursanway pretty much states by nature, play Ursan in PuGs or GTFO. How long do you think an FPS is going to last in terms of enjoyment if it only has one weapon?

The physics of this sort of thing are common sense, or should be common sense to balancers; and yet this sort of trash still continues...

And then we get stuff like nerfs on powershot... Anet's pretty much shooting peas when a giant meteorite overshadows the server. It's natural that people are going to come on here and go "WtF m8?"

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Cause every profession can use Ursan and not every profession can use the Monk skill for example.

That makes no sense. The fact that any profession can use it makes it all the more powerful, and all the more reason it needs to be toned down.

And the post above mine is ftw.

RiKio · Mar 21, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Ok, so this thread has turned into a PvE-PvP discussion. Here is mi proposal:

Add two skillsets, one for PvP and another one for PvE, changed accordingly with the enviroment, but remove all PvE-only skills and all crafted consumables. Do you want a balanced game? Take this.

Comment.

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiKio

Ok, so this thread has turned into a PvE-PvP discussion. Here is mi proposal:

Add two skillsets, one for PvP and another one for PvE, changed accordingly with the enviroment, but remove all PvE-only skills and all crafted consumables. Do you want a balanced game? Take this.

Comment.

/signed x100

Dr Strangelove · Mar 21, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiKio

Ok, so this thread has turned into a PvE-PvP discussion. Here is mi proposal:

Add two skillsets, one for PvP and another one for PvE, changed accordingly with the enviroment, but remove all PvE-only skills and all crafted consumables. Do you want a balanced game? Take this.

Comment.

The only reason people want this is so there can be imbalanced crap in PvE. It's really not a good idea to give every skill the brainless power of ursan.

reetkever · Mar 21, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

That makes no sense. The fact that any profession can use it makes it all the more powerful, and all the more reason it needs to be toned down.

And the post above mine is ftw.

It does make sense from A-Net's eyes, really. They think that as long as everyone can use Ursan it's fine.

I think it should be toned down a little, too. Not too much cause the skill isn't THAT great. It's just way easier to make a group with 6 Ursans and 2 monks than to find nukers, interrupters, tankers, protectors, supporters etc.

Well, I myself won't use Ursan cause I don't really find pride in killing monsters with a brainless tactic like Ursan.

A. Noid · Mar 21, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The only reason people want this is so there can be imbalanced crap in PvE. It's really not a good idea to give every skill the brainless power of ursan.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather not have imbalance anywhere.
I understand how ANet needs certain I-win scenerios for the casual gamers, and I think PvE skills are a decent enough solution, but when the game devolves down to outposts (in difficult areas) where your rank in Ursan determines who gets invited, there is a problem.

-ANoid

RiKio · Mar 21, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The only reason people want this is so there can be imbalanced crap in PvE. It's really not a good idea to give every skill the brainless power of ursan.

Well, then give the skills a moderated power. Also, remember: no crafted consumables. Back to 2005.

- Tain - · Mar 21, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Real skills do have power, people choose not to use them because 1-2-3 is easier to make work.

Lordhelmos · Mar 21, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

/signed x100

The problem with the proposal is that is requires ANET to go back and pretty much redesign alot of the skill implementations and PvE problems that they have been ignoring for the last year. Alot of the fixes and additions we have recieved in both PvE and PvP are temporary fixes made to appease the anger of the mob, while GW2 is used as an excuse for the lack of substantial PvE balances.

The addition of Ursanway is proof of this situation. Rather than going back and re-balancing classes to promote diversity in the game, we get tossed Ursanway and told, "hey go blow everything up with this big gun in PvE and stop complaining until Gw2 comes out."

Ursan was a giant universal fix made to all classes; the existence of a god-mode level skill that all classes could use to clear any area with no effort. Because of this, there might have been a feeling among balancers that classes in PvE don't need to be re-balanced because everyone can use Ursan.

Ursan has been used as an excuse for ignoring PvE balance for a long time. And really alot of the problems in PvE balance have been swept under the rug that is Ursan Blessing.

To be honest, the dirt under the rug has been snowballing for a long time because of this. There are hundred and upon hundreds of balance issues in the game, issues that are so severe that entire classes get nixed out of groups without something like Ursan Blessing to act as a universal entry card.

At this point, I'm pretty sure the reason that Anet won't nerf Ursan Blessing is because they are terrified of what might happen once that rug is lifted.

Nerfing Ursan Blessing won't solve the issue of class balance, but it is a needed step in the right direction. The problem with nerfing Ursan is that once the rug goes up, everyone is going to get to see all the dirt that was swept underneath it. All those problems with assassins, rits, paragons, and what not; is all going to come swarming back. Anet will find themselves swamped with complaints by players who are getting kicked out of parties because they are playing classes horribly imbalanced for the PvE environment (*cough* sins *cough*).

The reason that ANET is caught in such a lose-lose situation is pure ignorance in skill balancing. Rather than addressing major balance issues like sins in PvE, instead they decided to work on Gw2 and throw us a boatload of temporary fixes.

Because of the Ursan Bandaid, the giant wart underneath it all has been festering and pussing for a long time. Nerfing Ursanway might even mean opening the floodgates of hell for ANET, because all those long forgotten balance issues that Ursan has made the community forget about will all come back like a sweeping nightmare.

Nerfing Ursanway will show how imbalanced Guildwars really is. At this point, it seems like balancers want to continue remaining ignorant of those problems and hide behind Ursan.

However doing so will not make the problems go away. This sort of thing only bottles the rage of the community; and as a community, we are all aware of the festering wound hidden underneath Ursan that is stinking up the game as a whole.

RiKio · Mar 21, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

Real skills do have power, people choose not to use them because 1-2-3 is easier to make work.

Exactly. Lets force people to think instead of to mash buttons. That was Guild Wars original made.

Sleeper Service · Mar 21, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

1. Anet introduced new skills in all expansions.
2. The mechanic for denying use of certain skills in PVP exists.

obviously it can support it.

Arkantos · Mar 21, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

If they make different skill balances for PvE and PvP, they should remove PvE skills.

Now, what exactly do you guys propose ANet do? Revert every skill in the game to the way it originally was so you guys have a bunch of overpowered skills, or get ANet to hire more people to attempt to balance PvE, which in the end is going to screw over a lot of PvE builds.

Solas · Mar 21, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

whenever theres something powerfull that then the current fad,

i.e.
X-way in Ha, people QQ for ages about it
theres also rank discrimination brought in,
and when there's a very effective people it gets used

bring that into pve and its the same crap people complain about.

its more effective then tank + nukers, which isnt balanced,
theres no ursan rank discrimination, i haven't had a problem doing doa when rank 8 by jsut doing campaign and handing in the nm mission book.

its hear to stay so get over it and move on.
they'll be another fad soon anyway.

rank discrimination is here, its effective then current

Burst Cancel · Mar 21, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Something to think about: take a look at Quick Shot and consider why it's an elite skill. Then look at the turret skills.

While I'm not going to comment on the specific merits of these balance changes, recent balancing has seemed too knee-jerk. Overpowered is actually okay; it's all a matter of degree. Example: Guilty Gear is considered one of the most balanced fighting games ever made, yet nearly every character is overpowered in some way or another, and not every character is equally overpowered. The key is that every character has a reasonable chance of winning against all other characters, and it's the best players that are able to capitalize on those chances and win those tough 4-6 or 3-7 matches. There are, in fact, few matchups in fighting games that are exactly 5-5, but that never seems to matter for balance.

People who are familiar with my posts know I pull the Guilty Gear example a lot in balance discussions - I do it because I find their model more instructive than more boring balance models like Starcraft. SC is essentially a compound R-P-S game at the unit level - this is an obvious way to get pseudo-perfect balance, but it's not nearly as interesting as Guilty Gear. GG uses a general system to curb instant-win buttons like infinite combos, but otherwise allows characters free reign. So where does the balance come from?

The balance comes from the fact that the players learn how to play each particular match - one of the reasons competitive GG has such a notorious learning curve is because learning how to play your own character isn't at all good enough; you have to learn how to play your character against every other character in the cast, and the strategy will be different (often radically so) for each opponent. At lower levels of play, the top-tier characters are plainly obvious, because they have easily abusable weapons that most casual and intermediate players don't know how to deal with. At higher levels it becomes much less obvious which character has the advantage in any particular match because the top players know how to work around the overpowered tools their opponents are using - even in cases where they have no direct counter.

I think GW could stand to learn something from this. A build that appears overpowered on-face isn't necessarily broken in general. It's difficult to conclude, after just a week or even a month of playing, that something is so overpowered that it really needs to be 'fixed'. Again, I'm not saying that nothing can ever actually be broken. But I think it's worth waiting to see if top players learn how to play around it before actually tweaking the skills. There's more potential for improvement and evolution this way than just killing overpowered stuff with the nerfbat.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 21, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

In reality, the fact that Ursan blessing is so effective and universal is a huge issue. It's like playing a FPS game with nothing but rocket launchers, and people who don't max Norn for Ursan get pistols. With this kind of setup, what players do you think are going to get chewed up and turned into birdfood? The answer is obvious.

Or you could take Splinter Barrage Ritualists, using Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, SY/TNtF Paragons, using mobile bunkers, and.... well, yeah, once you have those your team is pretty much made; all you need is a few paragons running that and a bunch of Splinter Barrage ritualists, as well as a healing ritualist to patch any life steal type damage that gets through.

And the game is won.