Curse

arcanemacabre · Feb 26, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

well in that case plz allow me to ask, if a new player DID start out the game wit fow armor and tormented weapons, wut would be the purpose of playing this game if there was no goal to work for? the story mode (cuz u know gw has epic nobel laureate writing). every game has SOME sort of end game goal in order to make the game last longer, be it an mmo or a singe player. the only games that dont are usually purely multiplayer or competitve although some can say that becoming high on the ladder is a goal unto itself. yes some may play games merely to have fun, but those gamers typically do not stay in a game long enough to care about the end game rewards (casual gamers) to actually try to get it. even if u gave them those items, they would be indifferent to them almost as soon as they recieved them.

Wow. Yeah, I'm agreeing with Terraban, here. I play for the gameplay. I play for fun. I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you play for accomplishment, what do you do when you've accomplished it? The game will become boring and you'll stop playing. Most games put goals in for that very reason. You buy the game, beat it, and buy the next one in the franchise to beat that one. It keeps you wanting more. MMOs typically will put many, many hard-to-reach goals in (such as high level equipment) so that those type of players will keep playing (and keep paying that monthly fee).

But, if you play for fun, you don't fall into either trap. You can keep re-playing those games with end-game goals until they're no longer 'fun;' and you can stop playing those games with tons of goals when they are no longer 'fun' without thinking "I've got to keep doing this till I get x."

Peter Acid Eater · Feb 26, 2008, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Both Runescape and WoW have skills (professions) for make things and sell it: Crafting, Mining, Fishing, whatever ... both are very deep in that part, people should make things, not just NPCs selling everything. Lineage II too, it have crafted things, recipes, soul something (dont remember), etc., NOT availabe in ANY store in game, no NPC sell that, that's the trick.

In GW the only you need is Gold, and go and buy everything in NPCs with everything always available there, like black dyes, ectos, blah, blah ... no one craft that things in GW, there are no auction/trade house because there are nothing to sell, greens are nothing and as I said, materials are sold in NPCs, and if this is not enough, expensive things like FoW armor and Chaos gloves are 100% the same as 1k armors, no real bonus at all.

GW is good, really good, but in this part, economy, buying, selling, is very simplistic and casual.

ArenaNet if you are reading this (you should), in GW2, add Armors, Weapons, NOT available in NPCs at all, not even available as drops, that at the same time needs materials NOT available in NPCs at all neither, only a PLAYER can make it and sell it, via Auction/Trade House or just making a personal store (sitting) like Lineage II and buy/sell EXCLUSIVE things.

There' is a reason why FoW and many of the EotN armors are considered "vanity" items. Because there is no inherent reason to get them. They're not better than any of the other in-game armors, and are only actually there as something for end-game players to spend money on. I used to think GW had a bad economy. But that was when imperfect, common skin req12's and 13's were easily sold for 2-5k. But prices have stabilized quite a bit (mainly cos of being able to more easily get better loot in Hard Mode). I think prices would stabilize even better if there were an auction house.

If you're having a hard time with loot and getting cash, beat the freaking game first. I've seen lots of people in Beacons bemoaning that they don't have any money, and that everything costs too much. After beating Proph with my monk, I used some the 8k I had and bought superior runes to 55. I've been able to make plenty of loot farming Skyward Reach, Titans outside LA, Mergoyles, etc. And this is just in Prophecies. There are numerous good places in NF and Factions too. (got 4 ranger tomes during 1 run in Nahpui Quater) This fixed my cash flow problem real quick. You don't have to 55 either, there are tons of good farming builds for numerous professions. Or just play through the missions. I beat 4 missions on masters with my war a few days ago and make about 8k. In Normal Mode, too.

I do agree that it would be cool if GW had better crafting (hopefully in GW2). Being able to make your own alcohol, potions, other consumables and such would be a neat asset, but I personally don't think you should be able to craft armor and weapons. A lot of emphasis has been placed on multiple sets of Elite Armor (which should remain elite, not easily craftable), probably because of the HoM. But the HoM and it's achievements are meant for the extremely serious GW player. It's not meant to be something that every single player should and will easily be able to achieve.

Most of the time, when I see players in GW bitching about things being too expensive, what they're really saying is, "I want tons of loot with as little work as possible for it." It's not hard. I made about 30k and about 20 or so golds over the past 3 days with playing only 10 hours total.

Beat the game + farm build x Hard Mode = great loot. You can also get lots of loot capping elites, going for cartographer, Vanquisher, Guardian, and all sorts of other stuff.

jackie · Feb 26, 2008, 01:14 PM // 13:14

GW has very simplistic & flawed economy but that's ok, the game was intended to focus on PvP, economy and other PvE is just pasted there. I mean come on, this is a game where you can buy everything from NPCs except promo items & weapon skins.

enter_the_zone · Feb 26, 2008, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

ha ha ha ha ha ha excuse me for laughing.

Maybe if every creature was killed with a pause of 2 secs in between yeah. But 8 man team, kill 1 group and multiple die at the same time, say bye bye to your drops

Indeed. Which is why my usual h/h party consists largely of spike damage rather than AoE. It's also easier to kill monk bosses that way.

Angelic Upstart · Feb 26, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Acid Eater

If you're having a hard time with loot and getting cash, beat the freaking game first. I've seen lots of people in Beacons bemoaning that they don't have any money, and that everything costs too much. After beating Proph with my monk, I used some the 8k I had and bought superior runes to 55. I've been able to make plenty of loot farming Skyward Reach, Titans outside LA, Mergoyles, etc. And this is just in Prophecies. There are numerous good places in NF and Factions too. (got 4 ranger tomes during 1 run in Nahpui Quater) This fixed my cash flow problem real quick. You don't have to 55 either, there are tons of good farming builds for numerous professions. Or just play through the missions. I beat 4 missions on masters with my war a few days ago and make about 8k. In Normal Mode, too.

I do agree that it would be cool if GW had better crafting (hopefully in GW2). Being able to make your own alcohol, potions, other consumables and such would be a neat asset, but I personally don't think you should be able to craft armor and weapons. A lot of emphasis has been placed on multiple sets of Elite Armor (which should remain elite, not easily craftable), probably because of the HoM. But the HoM and it's achievements are meant for the extremely serious GW player. It's not meant to be something that every single player should and will easily be able to achieve.

Most of the time, when I see players in GW bitching about things being too expensive, what they're really saying is, "I want tons of loot with as little work as possible for it." It's not hard. I made about 30k and about 20 or so golds over the past 3 days with playing only 10 hours total.

Beat the game + farm build x Hard Mode = great loot. You can also get lots of loot capping elites, going for cartographer, Vanquisher, Guardian, and all sorts of other stuff.

Agreed, looking back it took me at least 6-8 months of playing, to have the money to afford my first set of elite armour from Marhans, and when i finally got it i was left absolutely skint, actually i was in debt to a guild mate cos i bolloxed up mixing some dye for it.
I then rolled a Monk, and he, after beating Prophecies morphed into a 55 and it was only then that i started to earn decent money and drops, remember this is before the, loot scaling and aoe scatter bollocks that Anet put in place.

The point i am trying to make is that people in the game now, all seem to want everything, but without having to put the effort in to get it, add to this the dropping in value of nearly every weapon due to, inscriptions and it is very hard to be able to get the one good drop that would sort you out financially, for example, i was lucky enough back in the day, to get a perfect req9 storm bow in ToPK, which sold immediately for 100k +20 ecto.
Hard mode has helped a little but to be honest the majority of good golds i get dropped now, if they havent a good mod on them get merched, whereas back in the day a req 10, 11, 12 of a decent weapon would still be worth selling, and would fetch a reasonable price.

Before anyone chimes in that im some elitist that doesent want anyone to get what i have, that aint the case, i have made my money and have all i want in the way of armour, weapons, etc i just play for the crack now,(when i can be bothered to sign in that is). I dont have anythng against people wanting the best drops and armour in the game, what i am against is people wanting it all, for no effort, sorry but it dont work like that.

Dylananimus · Feb 26, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

Glad I live in the UK where the government spends my taxes on more worth while things.

Oh wait, no they have no concept of how to run a country.

The GW economy is > UK's

Yunno, I just love sweeping statments like this with no basis in fact (kinda like the OP as a whole).

The UK economy compared to most countries (including the fast failing US economy) is doing pretty damn good, and is pretty damn stable considering the pressures coming from US influences

Stick to talking about the game, I'm hoping you'd know more about it

Anywho...

The only thing in GW that I've personally seen as kind of insane in the economy is the trading of mini pets. I mean...I just don't get it. All that money for something that doesn't do anything for you (at least armor protects and wepaons kill

). I'm guessing they're mostly just status symbols but there's no way I'd fork out all my GW cash for a useless lump of pixels. All that pig buying/selling craziness over the Canthan new year...it was nuts. I sold m spare pig for 10k and was called stupid cos "they're going for 25K noooooobzor", but I couldn't justify selling for more than that.

The players run the economy, and often players get it a little out of whack, or tip it one way...making it seem like the economy is 'bad'. It's not bad...it's just not level. It's not set...it flucuates with every big trend or passing fad, or new weapon, or mass farming hype.

So you're not making as much off the same weapons you were (when selling), that's because people are always looking for the next big thing. The buyers move on when something gets old or over-used/farmed, so of course you're not going to be able to sell the same thing endlessly for the same inflated price. The buyer dictates what the seller should sell, and that's pretty obvious to me. So go start farming something they do actually want now so you can make your oodles of cash so you can pet it and love it and call it George.

Fril Estelin · Feb 26, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylananimus

The UK economy compared to most countries (including the fast failing US economy) is doing pretty damn good, and is pretty damn stable considering the pressures coming from US influences

That's not what I've been reading lately. Credit could so easily lead to a global crash, China's crunching influence is beginning to be obvious, etc.

Sometimes, our point of view limits our understanding of the situation (it's what happened to me when I came to the UK from France, where there's a prejudice that UK's economy is in much better shape than France's; I checked the OECD's tables and realised, after being warned by a few people, that I was totally wrong). I think that's what's happening with GW's economy, almost everyone sees it from its own angle but everyone fails at seeing it as it is (and I'm not claiming to be different here!)

Quote:

The players run the economy, and often players get it a little out of whack, or tip it one way...making it seem like the economy is 'bad'. It's not bad...it's just not level. It's not set...it flucuates with every big trend or passing fad, or new weapon, or mass farming hype.

Very well said!

Yawgmoth · Feb 26, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Current GW economy fails because of a Huge imbalance between supply and demand. It's not just the low prices that are bad, it's the overabundance of perfect stuff that is near impossible to sell because there's no demand.

Low prices don't make a dead economy - best example is the DoA gemstones and Armbraces market - the prices are lower than ever and lots of people are complaining, but the market is alive and doing well, there is still demand for the goods so trading keeps going on. When all that changes is just the price the economy is doing well.

The whole GW economy consists of many different separate markets, the markets for different types of goods. You can't say the whole GW economy is dead or is bad. But some markets are doing much worse than others, while there's nothing to complain about in for example the Materials market, which is alive and healthy, but the biggest problem lies in the Weapons market.

A major flaw of the GW item system is the supereasy availability of *perfect* stuff, especially now with inscriptions system and uber drop rates of hard mode.
Now when a player gets his items with skins he likes and makes them perfect (which is very easy) there's no more possible improvement for him! Character development stops and that player no longer generates demand for items. This moment is achieved way too easily.
The massive overabundance of perfectness makes everything that is not perfect bad. And if it's perfect it's still not enough to be in demand. It's wrong.

*Rarity* is the key, it's the main driving force of whole economies, removing that kills the economy. Without rarity there's no reason to trade.

Just think how different the economy would be if there was no such a thing as a *perfect* item at all! The game could still be accessible to casual players, with having cheap and common *good* items, gear good enough to make a character fully capable of playing through all the content, with things slightly better appearing at increasing rarity, with the possibility of character development. Even if the development is as small as +2% or +3%, the effect on the economy would be tremendous, demand for stuff a tiny bit better than that would be neverending as long as its supply was connected with rarity.

...You don't have to look to other games to see a better working economy than GW has - even Pre-Searing has a better economy! Seriously.

pygar · Feb 26, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

My take on the economy is it would be nice if merchants would give you more for less than perfect golds or grapes, and would be nice if there were fixed rates on some things you buy from merchants like black dyes or popular runes.

The game needs more fancy skins, right now there are only a handful of weapons with glowy effects that people love, and once people get there hands on one of those skins they are pretty much done buying anything else. (Example:I just bought a super cool stormbow, and you want me to pay how much for a junky looking platinum bow? Yeah, good luck with that.) The Celestial Minis from canthan new year are great proof of this- the demand for the new shiny minis has nearly sunk the market for the older and more common minis. (which isn't a bad thing for people paying to get their first mini's) If they had an event that suddenly unleashed a whole bunch of new and unseen weapon skins into the game (ones you can trade, unlike the BMP ones) it would create a similar frenzy of trading.... and would be good for the economy even though it would cause value on older things to drop.

I dunno, for the most part the economy is ok.... it is mostly just a problem for new players, especially when it is easy for them to see people with big money and vanity items but tough for them to get said money and items..... right now stagnation of the economy (very natural at this point in GWs lifespan) is probably the toughest part for them.(newbs can get weapons and mods cheap, but cant sell them to get any real cash, saving all their nickels and dimes is almost the only way to get the cash for the high end stuff) From my experience of playing for 3 months, my best recommendation for newbies is to buy the BMP and the Skill unlock packs, screw in game trading to get ahead.

zwei2stein · Feb 26, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Heroes could (and do) generate a LOT of demand for low-end perfect weapons and for runes/insignias.

Even if demand per character for weapons/runes was multiplied 25 times (for example, i have 10 pve chars - one per class. Thats 250 heroes: it means that my demand for i.e. minor soul reaping runes went from 1-2 on my necro to 30), market easily provided that.

That is huge: Saabway's popularity means that lots of people use those three necroes and all of them equip them with minor sr rune. Regardless their primary class they now generated demand for couple of SR runes. Trader NPC should be constantly sold out. However it is not.

Most interesting.

Lest121 · Feb 26, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I have no problems with the Economy, I never bitched or cry when HM and Loot scaling was introduce I adjusted........ people are too lazy and refuse to put the time in to make some loot, and I know average gamers that are in my alliance that know how to make money, and all they play is 90mins a day, LAZY gamers are the ones that cry the most.

pygar · Feb 26, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Heroes could (and do) generate a LOT of demand for low-end perfect weapons and for runes/insignias.

Even if demand per character for weapons/runes was multiplied 25 times (for example, i have 10 pve chars - one per class. Thats 250 heroes: it means that my demand for i.e. minor soul reaping runes went from 1-2 on my necro to 30), market easily provided that.

That is huge: Saabway's popularity means that lots of people use those three necroes and all of them equip them with minor sr rune. Regardless their primary class they now generated demand for couple of SR runes. Trader NPC should be constantly sold out. However it is not.

Most interesting.

Disagree.... I have one character and seven empty slots.... I have almost all of the heroes but only use like 4 or 5 of them with any regularity. They got junk drops for filler early on, but I got good equipment for them slowly but surely from drops, and right now my heroes are maxed with high end stuff- lot's of newbs wish they were as decked as my heroes are, and I only had to buy a fraction of the equipment that they have. I could obsess on equipping every last hero I have to the max, but likely wont.(I'm sure there are others that do) Heroes dont really generate that much market demand, rather they just give you a fallback when you get a good enough drop to use, but not cool enough to sell to anybody but the merchants.

Sabway is popular on this forum, but in game the majority of people either havn't heard of it, or like me would just rather not use it...this coupled with being able to get minor runes from common drops, is why the SR rune prices havn't gone through the roof. (and actually the economy of runes being the way it is, is one of the biggest cripples for the economy- +1's are actually the best and most popular, but you get them from crap drops- so even though the demand is high, so is the supply.... meanwhile +3's are almost meaningless to people, but thats what you get when you get a rare gold rune drop....it's totally backwards, and makes all the rune drops you get near worthless unless you luck out and get a superior vigor, or the exact rune you were looking for at that time.)

@ the OP, have to disagree with you too....only I have no experience with runescape to back my argument up- I would just argue that I dont play runescape, and nobody I know plays runescape, so therefore runescape sucks....and comparing the GW economy to the economy of a game that sucks is silly. (Go play runescape if the grass is so much greener)

ThorDiantral · Feb 26, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

The problem with GW's economy is that everything is for vanity. Every item worth more than 1k is vanity. Collector weapons and armor is fine but lack a skin that is pretty. In other games, people are driven to buy items that have better stats or allow you to do something special. Until GW2 comes out and monuments give statistical benefits, absolutely nothing in GW happens for something other than vanity. A few exceptions are titles for lockpicking and salvaging, but this just makes getting vanity items easier.
GW is a casual game. People who pare truly casual players don't care whether they're wearing droks armor or FoW. It's the people who are obsessed, the farmers and power traders, that actually care what their weapons looks like.
We just have to accept that the economy is driven by the "elite" and it is for the "elite". If you play for fun, the economy shouldn't matter to you. This is unless your fun is looking good and showing off items, which unless you can devote hours and hours to playing, you need to find another game.
GW2 should bring us the economy we all desire. Until then, we have to put up with people buying and selling stickers because in essence, that's all fancy equipment is.

Angelic Upstart · Feb 26, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorDiantral

GW is a casual game. People who pare truly casual players don't care whether they're wearing droks armor or FoW. It's the people who are obsessed, the farmers and power traders, that actually care what their weapons looks like.
We just have to accept that the economy is driven by the "elite" and it is for the "elite".

That statement is categorically wrong,... seriously.....

Numa Pompilius · Feb 26, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorDiantral

If you play for fun, the economy shouldn't matter to you. This is unless your fun is looking good and showing off items, which unless you can devote hours and hours to playing, you need to find another game.

Pretty much sums it up.

freaky naughty · Feb 26, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

If you simply play the game you'll have everything you need. Some basic armor and to all of you hardcore gamers 10 sets of fow on all your characters is not basic armor. Armor with the material costs about7-8k, plus runes are 200-400 gold if you use just minors and majors, and a good weapon for a warrior just buy a Sskai's sword for 1k, for a monk a scar eater 2k, most profession's green weapons sell for small amounts like these. The current economy should have almost NO effect at all on someone who just wants to play the game and have fun. That's why GW doesn't incorporate the WoW way of doing things (that would be having a godslaying ubersword of immortality, grants immortality and slays all).

Of course if you're one of the people who has stacks of ecto the economy is going to piss you off, because you've pretty much put your time into looking good on a character instead of doing what this game was supposed to be about, which was having fun. If you want a weapon worth 100k it's fairly easy to obtain. If you want FoW it's time consuming but still the economy isn't stopping you from getting it. If you want wealth to match the dupers then this game simply isn't for you. Take for example Anet gave one random account a useless item that just sat in your inventory. This item is useless except for sitting in your inventory, however Anet announced that one "lucky" account would receive this item. You'd have the uber rich trying to buy this item for 1750 armbraces in no time

I say keep all the vanity objects in GW2 just don't give them WoW-like attributes that set them apart from everyone else. The economy has no relevance to your gameplay as long as you don't prioritize having better things than everyone else.

Xx_Sorin_xX · Feb 26, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanatic 's faith

WRONG. The gw economy is like this. 0.01% (or less) can affort fow/... due to early start of playing/now powertrading because they have much mony.
some 50% has less then 50plat most of the time the other people can get much mony, but still won't be able to get anywhere near the 0.01% wich have stacks of ectos/armbraces/... Thats wrong.

no your actually the one thats wrong. just because you can't make money now and because people whine on guru that they can't make money doesn't mean a person can't. i didnt have over 100k until AFTER nightfill. and now after that i have two FoW sets. i didnt powertrade either. you just want a get rich quick idea that you can go get FoW in a few days. thats not what the point of that armor!

and ambraces are INCREDIBLY easy to get these days. ursanway in DoA makes a full run in 2-3 hours tops. do it a few times and you have yourself an ambrace. and ambraces still sell for a good chunk. your saying you cant make money? no your just doing it the wrong way.

stop asking for the game to be handed to you on a silver platter. thats stupid.

rustyduktape · Feb 27, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

its crazy, the guildwars economy, imo, is extremely unstable. i stopped playing guildwars when a req 9 elemental sword was worth SO much money, over +200 ectos, now when i came back about 2 months later, i saw somebody selling one in teh sell forums for 40k? thats insane. now i have weapons that used to be worth over 100k, that are only worth 1-5k! its crazy. and the weapons that are still worth over 100k+20 or more ectos are only obtainable by people who either know the secrets of farming, or do Heroes Ascent like it's their job. i just wish the prices of weapons would go back to what they used to be. and as for making money, it's way to hard to make money now, nevermind the only way to do it is to farm, and everybody has over farmed everything! whats next, a req9 gold tyrian crystalline worth 50k? ugh, to bad its not what it was like 1-2 years ago.

Kudicious Kaylok.

Lady Yuna · Feb 27, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyduktape

its crazy, the guildwars economy, imo, is extremely unstable. i stopped playing guildwars when a req 9 elemental sword was worth SO much money, over +200 ectos, now when i came back about 2 months later, i saw somebody selling one in teh sell forums for 40k? thats insane. now i have weapons that used to be worth over 100k, that are only worth 1-5k! its crazy. and the weapons that are still worth over 100k+20 or more ectos are only obtainable by people who either know the secrets of farming, or do Heroes Ascent like it's their job. i just wish the prices of weapons would go back to what they used to be. and as for making money, it's way to hard to make money now, nevermind the only way to do it is to farm, and everybody has over farmed everything! whats next, a req9 gold tyrian crystalline worth 50k? ugh, to bad its not what it was like 1-2 years ago.

Kudicious Kaylok.

The problem is the same for Armbraces, more of the item(alot more actually), lower the price. But, that's true for everything isn't? Greens used to be HOT, but once people overfarmed them, they're back at what? 5k for something that's worth 40k+. But there isn't a way to solve this unless Anet put some serious thinking/action into this.

GW really isn't the place where you can make 200k per day and get all the best weps/armor within a week.

"you can never get on life by complaining all day" its said for a reason

rustyduktape · Feb 27, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

well, im not really complaining, well i kinda am, but not about me and money, cause i do have ways to make money, just not farming. farming is always something i enjoyed, but people, imo, have ruined it. definetly. haha, i just realized also that i contradicted myself when i said there's no way to make money. haha, i apologize. i just wont share those secrets, because they help me! and i dont want those ways overrun either! haha.