Curse

lyra_song · Feb 15, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

-Stagnation and staleness and gameplay is a result of lack of diversity in gameplay. Thats a FACT.

-It is imbalanced. Thats a FACT.

-It is bad for the economy. With everyone farming high level areas, expensive items are dropping in prices. As such, nothing retains value and theres less and less buying power no matter how much you do. Meaning you can keep spending hours farming, but your money is worth less and less. Thats a FACT also.

-Quality of PUGs have gotten worse and worse and worse since the game has gotten easier and less focused on skill. This is my opinion, but Im sure a lot of people feel the same.

How can anyone here deny what is a blantantly BAD move by Anet thats killing the game as we speak.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- I see. But how are you going to do it without removing all the skills from game?

Imagine if there was just three skills: Barrage, Prepared Shot and Archer's Signet. Then we would hear the same arguments as we hear from UB: "Barrage is just too good, no one even considers Prepared Shot and Archer's Signet when it exists in the game." ...although people can still use the other two just fine.

Then ANET nerfs Barrage to oblivion.
Same arguments begin: "Prepared Shot is just miles better than Archer's Signet, game is just stupid when you have exactly one skill you can use" ...and again nerfed Barrage and Archer's Signet are still there.

How can you say that the game is about skill when it's ninety percent about skillbars, and you agree with this statement?

It's supposed to be about skill. PvE skills are one of the many things removing this, by creating skills that are by nature better than the rest. When all skills are balanced against each other, then there can be a situation, where in your example, Prepared shot and Barrage both have uses to which they succeed equally in overall play.

However, to carry on the metaphor, ANet then introduced a skill that deals every condition and +50 damage on one arrow shot (hyberbolic analogy). Suddenly every player, rather than learn the best ways to use Prepared shot and Barrage, can just run that skill and fire it at the closest monster in sight and win because of how strong it is.

Then the argument between people who think the skill is ridiculous and needs to be removed as the game is balanced around skills like Barrage / Prepshot versus those who think superubershot is a good thing because it lets them blast through areas begins.

trobinson97 · Feb 15, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

-Stagnation and staleness and gameplay is a result of lack of diversity in gameplay. Thats a FACT.

-It is imbalanced. Thats a FACT.

-It is bad for the economy. With everyone farming high level areas, expensive items are dropping in prices. As such, nothing retains value and theres less and less buying power no matter how much you do. Meaning you can keep spending hours farming, but your money is worth less and less. Thats a FACT also.

Aw you edited before I could reply to the funny response.

-The game became stagnant and stale for me because I'd done everything I wanted to do. I can't blame Ursan for it, therefore I can't say "Nerf Ursan because they will get bored too." You can use that argument if you like, but it fails on the basic premise that if you decide to stop playing tomorrow, Anet will not care, even if they did notice. They have your money. Stagnation and staleness is a part of every game. That's a fact.

-It is overpowered, yes that is a fact. But if it should be removed simply because of that (never mind that it's not usable in Anet's true arena for display of "skills" i.e. PvP) then you'd have to removed every single skill that gives a group a decided advantage when used within the framework of a team...in PvE. There are a lot of them. So no, I'm still waiting.

-With expensive items dropping in prices, those people who do not have the in game welath of others are more able to afford them. I do not see that as a bad thing and it goes back to personal greed. "Ursan makes X cheaper so now I can't get as much by selling it." It's not bad for the majority, it's inconvenient for the greedy few. Boo hoo. No cookie for you.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

With expensive items dropping in prices, those people who do not have the in game welath of others are more able to afford them. I do not see that as a bad thing and it goes back to personal greed. "Ursan makes X cheaper so now I can't get as much by selling it." It's not bad for the majority, it's inconvenient for the greedy few. Boo hoo. No cookie for you.

Considering items offer no advantage in the game, there's no need to make vanity items readily available. PvE was a good deal more fun when there was something to actually earn, rather than just being a game of steamrolling monsters. One of the reasons I quit PvE was because there really wasn't a purpose - nothing was really challenging, and there was no reward.

Bryant Again · Feb 15, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

How is it good? Here was thinking I'd get a hard question. You guys claim that there are nothing but Ursan groups pugging so obviously it's good for those people who choose to play it. A vocal minority does not represent the views of the whole, nor does it imply in any way that the game is damaged. You'd need harder evidence than your opinions to convince me. Believe me, I welcome the hard evidence.

First off, saying "everybody uses it" is currently an exaggeration. However, I'll note that "ursanway is all you ever see in DoA" was at one time an exaggeration, as well. Time will tell in this case. I'll also start off by saying that I don't have a very large concern with titles, economy, and rare weapons.

What I *do* care about is the general quality and experience of the game, and that was my original question: How is Ursan Blessing good for Guild Wars? To that I've found little support.

My reasoning for which you criticize (and also turn into the wrong idea, interestingly enough) is not that "people are as good as me" - in fact, if they were as good as me they wouldn't need to resort to UB in the first place - but rather they're playing an entirely different game. Ursan Blessing lacks a need for build set up - the core Guild Wars element that's won it much acclaim, that made it different from other RPGs, and the only area in Guild Wars where you could show your skill and experience in the game in both PvE and /P.

This would be different, and my concerns nonexistent, if Ursan wasn't as powerful as it is. When you're taking into consideration who and what you want to bring in as your team (this applies to other games as well) you want to not only be powerful and successful, but efficient as well. This is where UB does best. Not only is it strong and with little counters and concerns, the party set up is easy as hell: You only need two professions, Bears and Monks. And that's it.

You could look at my view in one of two ways: It's "selfish" because I want people to play the "original Guild Wars experience" - but as I stated that was one of the many reasons that made Guild Wars as great as it was. I myself can still play Guild Wars in such a manner, of course, but I can't determine the mindset of others. I just want people to have as much fun as I had. Of course, people are entitled to play as they will. I have no problem with someone lowering the difficulty slider. The difference is that they know what they're doing, that they know they're taking the less traditional and more simpler route. Sadly, I don't think many will be able to realize this with Ursan.

~

So, what do I want with Ursan Blessing? I don't want it removed, that's for sure. I just don't want it to be the most simple and successful solution, bar-none. It's like the IWAY of PvE, but in this instance the IWAY is actually successful.

lyra_song · Feb 15, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Aw you edited before I could reply to the funny response.

-The game became stagnant and stale for me because I'd done everything I wanted to do. I can't blame Ursan for it, therefore I can't say "Nerf Ursan because they will get bored too." You can use that argument if you like, but it fails on the basic premise that if you decide to stop playing tomorrow, Anet will not care, even if they did notice. They have your money. Stagnation and staleness is a part of every game. That's a fact.

Yes, the gameplay is stagnant to you because you have done a lot things. Thats great. But you missed the point completely.

Lets breakdown Guild Wars. We have:

PvP. PvP breaks down into. RA, TA, HA, GvG, Hero Battles, AB.

Within PvP, and within the subcategories of PvP, theres multiple types of builds you can run.

PvE. We have: Missions, Quests, Farming, Vanquishing, Elite areas, Running.

Within PvE and the various subcategories theres lots of different builds and such to do.

In a game that has THOUSANDS of skill combinations and many player combinations, as well as team combinations, why are we allowing 1 SKILL to dominate what is designed to be the HARDEST areas of the PvE game?

A new player coming into the game will enter these elite areas and will meet only PUGS who demand Ursan.

Now the player has 2 choices. Get with Ursan, or dont get with Ursan.

To get ursan effectively maxed is very very repetitive. Its very very boring. And when you have it maxed out, its a boring skill to use. Slash, KD, roar, repeat. Monk goes Heal Seed, Heal Seed...

Does Ursan make the game boring for everyone? No.

Why is it damaging then? Because it turns the ELITE AREAS, the fun areas, the hardest areas, the areas supposed to reward you after playing through the game, into a simple button mashing slugfest.

It turns DOA, Deep, Urgoz, FoW, UW and high end dungeons into 1 thing. Ursan only maps. Theres no longer any need for the areas to have any diversity, or variety, since everyone is using the same thing, everywhere.

Quote:

-It is overpowered, yes that is a fact. But if it should be removed simply because of that (never mind that it's not usable in Anet's true arena for display of "skills" i.e. PvP) then you'd have to removed every single skill that gives a group a decided advantage when used within the framework of a team...in PvE. There are a lot of them. So no, I'm still waiting.

Theres lots of overpowered skills in the game. And they ALL should be nerfed. Ursan is not alone in this.

Quote:

-With expensive items dropping in prices, those people who do not have the in game welath of others are more able to afford them. I do not see that as a bad thing and it goes back to personal greed. "Ursan makes X cheaper so now I can't get as much by selling it." It's not bad for the majority, it's inconvenient for the greedy few. Boo hoo. No cookie for you.

There are items in the game with FIXED prices. Items like 15k armor for example will NEVER drop in price.

I do not buy low/sell high. I do not ursan farm. I very rarely buy anything from other players.

Ursan players are clearing DOA to MAKE MONEY. Theres so many of them, that they will no longer be able to make any money since they are filling the economy with lots of excess armbraces and gems.

The very thing they came to get to make money is now worthless THANKS to them using Ursan.

Give it a few weeks, Armbraces will be 50k tops.

And then Ursan will be useless since theres nothing worth value to farm for.

Nothing worth left to strive for. Nothing left to do.

tankity tank · Feb 15, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Or you could, IDK, hero/hench it.

Hero/hench is better than 99.5% of players anyway.

Abedeus · Feb 15, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Now read what you have written. Read again, again and again, until you understand why you failed.

Dark Kal · Feb 15, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's imbalanced because puggers are mostly judgmental and/or ill-knowledged players? Any profession can succeed in any area of the game, it's just that inexperienced players don't see that. They're the same people who thinks Paragons have been nerfed to uselessness in PvE (which is the exact opposite.) You're essentially saying that it's "imbalanced" because inexperienced players say so, which is almost akin to doing skill balances based off of RA.

It's imbalanced because the majority off players can find very few other builds other than the cookie cutter builds to do DoA. It's certainly possible to do DoA with other builds as well but you would need to be lucky enough to be in a skilled enough guild or have enough skilled friends. That would probably leave at least 75% of the other people out. The game shouldn't just be about luck either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

And Hence UB made it easy to these poorly appreciated professions to get into PUGs.

This is the point I was trying to make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Not as much. If you lacked a skill, you can still have a build that could still work or work as well as what is asked for. You have a whole campaign on your side for that. But nothing compares to UB: It's a whole skill bar that can only be obtained through one skill, which can only be obtained through one expansion pack.

There are several builds out there I can't use because I haven't bothered pushing all my characters through Nightfall so this statement is blatantly false (i.e. I can't be a permanent Shadow Form A/Me because I don't have the skill that makes assassin skills recharge faster and there is NO alternative for it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Give bad players tools to overcome how bad they are and just bulldoze through, and the PUG quality continues to drop.

It's an utopian thought to think bad players will eventually get better. The reality is that most bad players will stay bad, so it's better to give them a tool so that they are atleast somewhat usefull to good players than completely wasting the good player's time by using some horrible build.

An important question I'd still like to see answered by the people who want UB to be nerfed is: Why do you care about UB so much? Since it hardly affects your game play? Yes, there is slight (I say slight because there is always a cookie cutter build for every area, so prices for items will always go down for every item found in area over time, as well as the fact that a large amount of people have just changed from cookie cutter build A to cookie cutter build B and hence do not impact the economy much more than they did before) economic impact because it's slightly faster, but not too big of an impact (i.e. duping item's and the Mallyx outpost if left unchecked). As well as the fact that there are many other builds played along side Ursanway.

If people want to take the easy way of doing something why shouldn't they be able to? People generally don't use 8 man teams to get ectos either they usually use a solo/duo build because it's easier shouldn't they nerf those builds as well then? And why oh why should everyone live up to the standards you set for yourself? Why aren't they allowed to make their own standards? It's a game afterall and people should be allowed to have fun anyway they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact the other players. Even if that means using a skill that requires less skill than other builds. If you really have a need to feel better than everyone else play PvP where you actually get titles because of your skill. None of the PvE titles make me think that person has much skill since there are a lot of easy ways of getting titles like vanquishing, survivor, ...

Angelic Upstart · Feb 15, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Make UB area specific, that way you can only use it in Norn areas.
Problem solved.

Abedeus · Feb 15, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It's imbalanced because the majority off players can find very few other builds other than the cookie cutter builds to do DoA. It's certainly possible to do DoA with other builds as well but you would need to be lucky enough to be in a skilled enough guild or have enough skilled friends. That would probably leave at least 75% of the other people out. The game shouldn't just be about luck either.

Luck exists only in gambling and %'s. You are thinking about ,,skill''. And game should be in 90% about skill, not it's in 95% about time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

There are several builds out there I can't use because I haven't bothered pushing all my characters through Nightfall so this statement is blatantly false (i.e. I can't be a permanent Shadow Form A/Me because I don't have the skill that makes assassin skills recharge faster and there is NO alternative for it).

That skill is in nightfall. You can't afford 300g for assassin tome or 1 hero skill point to buy it from Hoju at Gate of Torment? Wow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

An important question I'd still like to see answered by the people who want UB to be nerfed is: Why do you care about UB so much? Since it hardly affects your game play?

We already said that FEW TIMES DAMN IT!! How many times must we repeat?
1. It eliminates the challenge from game.
2. If we don't use it, we don't get to 96% of PuGs.
3. There are no alternatives, as every single build is inferior to UB.
4. It's overpowered and even single Ursan Blessing skill is better than any other 8 skills on the bar.
5. It's breaking the economy like a hammer breakin little child's head. Look at the Armbraces thread if you need proof.
6. Requires at least r10 norn/r8 lightbringer, pugs won't take anyone with anything lower than this.
7. ^ requires people to grind...
8. Supports the philosophy of time > skill.
9. Titles that were worth anything (Vanquisher, all FoW/UW etc. titles, Protector, Defender) are now worth less than Survivor or money sink items.
10. It can destroy anything, everywhere and anytime.

If someone wants, please add more, but I think that 10 points are enough.

Awakener · Feb 15, 2008, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Luck exists only in hazard and %'s. You are thinking about ,,skill''. And game should be in 90% about skill, not it's in 95% about time.

That skill is in nightfall. You can't afford 300g for assassin tome or 1 hero skill point to buy it from Hoju at Gate of Torment? Wow.

We already said that FEW TIMES DAMN IT!! How many times must we repeat?
1. It eliminates the challenge from game.
2. If we don't use it, we don't get to 96% of PuGs.
3. There are no alternatives, as every single build is inferior to UB.
4. It's overpowered and even single Ursan Blessing skill is better than any other 8 skills on the bar.
5. It's breaking the economy like a hammer breakin little child's head. Look at the Armbraces thread if you need proof.
6. Requires at least r10 norn/r8 lightbringer, pugs won't take anyone with anything lower than this.
7. ^ requires people to grind...
8. Supports the philosophy of time > skill.
9. Titles that were worth anything (Vanquisher, all FoW/UW etc. titles, Protector, Defender) are now worth less than Survivor or money sink items.
10. It can destroy anything, everywhere and anytime.

If someone wants, please add more, but I think that 10 points are enough.

Falseee. 123456

Avarre · Feb 15, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

I'm not sure what can match the firepower, resilience, or capability of an Ursan/SY group.

Abedeus · Feb 15, 2008, 11:29 AM // 11:29

I asked few times for a build as good or better than Ursan. Nobody posted one.

Surena · Feb 15, 2008, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Most regular Ursancarebears are pretty bad. Now while I am not the toughest player myself, I am astonished on how pretty bad people either ARE or BECAME through Ursan.

I helped several r8+ Ursans (mainly) to the Forgemaster to get their armor and noticed how they even failed to keep away from aggroing the whole map, how they unloaded Dchops (I suggested to them - they didn't even knew the benefits of an IAS) at nothing (off-blessing), how happily they ignored SS which becomes a pain to remove with 10+ Nightmares, Shadow Mesmers etc.., how bad they chose their targets. AoE is hard to grasp, and that was normal mode.

This skill is probably as brain-damaging as repetitive farming, besides that it spreads an epidemic form of lazyness throughout all the ranks, making GW even more pathetic. Now you can call Pve "piss easy and doable with an emtpy skillbar" but this bear goes beyond retardation. Shoot it.

Sub Frost · Feb 15, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Make UB area specific, that way you can only use it in Norn areas.
Problem solved.

Then Anet would have to make all the PVE Skills only usable in there specific areas = New complaint's.

I'm curious to see what Anet's going to do, give in to the complaint's has usual or just let it go...

Angelic Upstart · Feb 15, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

If that was the case it wouldnt bother me, i think pve skills are just another nail in GW's coffin tbh

Dark Kal · Feb 15, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

That skill is in nightfall. You can't afford 300g for assassin tome or 1 hero skill point to buy it from Hoju at Gate of Torment? Wow.

It's a skill found solely in Nightfall which disallows me to use a build since there is no other way to make that build work, therefor it is campagne discrimination.

Quote:

We already said that FEW TIMES DAMN IT!! How many times must we repeat?
1. It eliminates the challenge from game.
2. If we don't use it, we don't get to 96% of PuGs.
3. There are no alternatives, as every single build is inferior to UB.
4. It's overpowered and even single Ursan Blessing skill is better than any other 8 skills on the bar.
5. It's breaking the economy like a hammer breakin little child's head. Look at the Armbraces thread if you need proof.
6. Requires at least r10 norn/r8 lightbringer, pugs won't take anyone with anything lower than this.
7. ^ requires people to grind...
8. Supports the philosophy of time > skill.
9. Titles that were worth anything (Vanquisher, all FoW/UW etc. titles, Protector, Defender) are now worth less than Survivor or money sink items.
10. It can destroy anything, everywhere and anytime.

1. False, people can choose to use the skill or not hence allowing them to choose their own difficulty. Instead of having a certain difficulty dictated to them by you.
2. False, there are enough other groups that do not use Ursanway.
3. False, 600hp/Smite builds can do virtually anything Ursanway can do.
4. True, UB is overpowered compared to other skills however the game has many imbalances which are overcome with UB. UB also hardly affects other players and is not allowed in areas where skill actually matters i.e. PvP. PvE is about fun and not so much about skill (especially compared to PvP).
5. False, it does not have a significant impact on the economy as a whole. Any item's value will deminish over time.
6. False, if not very false, rank 6 norn and up will easily get you into an Ursanwaygroup. UB has absolutly nothing to do with LB unless you want to use it in DoA. Either way both titles do not require a large amount of grind to get to a level that is effective.
7. True, yet it's kind of the same point as your previous point. And you are not forced to use UB you can play most of the game without ever using it. It's not a must have skill and you don't have to grind 1 minute if you do not want to. Yet, all RPGs revolve around grind in one way or another whether it's grinding to level up (although not necessarily) or farming for a specific item you want which is basicly also grinding. You can't play these kinds of games without expecting some sort of grind.
8. True, it requires less skill than most builds and requires some grinding. But again you do not have to use the skill at all. Why won't you let other people decides for themselves whether they want to grind and use easier skills? It's a game!
9. False, these things hardly ever meant anything other than being fortunate enough to be in a good guild whose intrest it was to do UW/FoW mostly with some gimmick of their own. Vanquishing just requires a lot of time and Protector/Defender titles are virtually give away titles.
10. False, UB doesn't make you invincible, it's not just an insta-win button. You can't take on an infinite amount of enemies, ursans do die/wipe. But even if it was an instant victory why do you care so much about how other people play? It's their choice to do so and it hardly affects you. Most of these points are elitists points where you are basically trying to force people to play by your standards. Who are you to say how people should or shouldn't play?

Abedeus · Feb 15, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

1. It still eliminates. You can't deny it that with Ursan everything is harder.
2. I think I posted somewhere a screen where 96% of pugs were about ursan, 4% were in other builds.
3. They can't do whole Urgoz/FoW/UW/DoA/Deep without changing a skill.
5. Yes, but with Ursan it diminishes a lot faster than normally. Why? More people farm them, even if without UB they wouldn't make it.
6. GAAGGAaGAhahahAhahahaHhAHahaHAH OHOHOOHOHO AHAHAHH YHYHYYA ZHZHZHHZH! Good one.
7. What? GW WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT GRIND! It was supposed to be skill > time, no? It was. Thanks to GWN and then GWEN and pve-only skills it's time > skill. Even UBers say so.
8. It requires NO skill. Even an ape can mash 1-2-3 (and maybe 4 if he misses in frenzy), press C and hit space with palm.
9. Being fortunate in being skilled? No. Someone can be talented, but skill will die without practice. Vanquishing with 3x hench + w/mo is NOT possible, even if you have 10 hours. Protector is not that easy, not mentioning hard defender.
10. No, but you can easily overaggro and survive thanks to 200 hp more and +20 armor. Plus you knock down all enemies each few seconds.

And you are forgetting that this is an MMORPG. Ever played a private server of any game? Donation items can ruin the game. What's the difference between Ursan ($40 for a game, where one of the attractions is UB) and donation item, giving you 30 times more damage than the best weapon in game for non-donators.

Everything you do is affecting people you may not know. When you spend 50k on new weapon, someone else is spending that cash on items. People buy those items and get money. It's like a huge ecosystem - one piece is broken and everything will start to suffer.

Crom The Pale · Feb 15, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

If you can't find people that are willing to play the game with you the way you wish to play it then I am sorry for you.

However forcing people to play the game the way you wish to play it is never the correct option.

Elite zones will always and have always been areas of this game where people are forced to use a build that others deamand of them. You can't tell me that forcing a player to run an Obsidian Flesh tank is better than forcing them to run Ursan Blessing???

If you do not like the skill do not use it, if you do not wish those in your party to use it let them know.

This is a game and people are having fun using this skill, so let them use it!