Curse

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

That had nothing to do with 600hp, it was a result of Spirit Bond. You could be a 55 with SB+HB, overkill as it was. Just felt like clarifying.

Well duh. I think that anyone talking about knows how 600 hp's were nerfed (I call them 600 hp, but it's just 600 monk...). Oh, and btw, they were nerfed a bit worse than Ursans. Why? Before I could (I mean I COULD, but of course they nerfed it 5 days after I finished leveling monk to 20 level on trolls) put Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond + IW and some stances (Elemental Resistance to lower armor, Mantra of Concentration/Resolve) and solo the smites + aatxes + probably few other monsters, as long as they hit hard. Now solo 600 is worse than 55 and requires a smiter.

Fried Tech · Feb 14, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Okay. Think about it like this. We all grew up playing videogames, or at least a large majority of us did. When you beat Mario or Sonic or Goldeneye, whatever game you loved back then, did you not get a sense of accomplishment? Didn't you have a great time doing it? Yes?

Many would argue that skills like UB take away this sense of accomplishment. For both the people who use the skill, and those that don't. I think that this is just ignorant. Every game has a cheat mode of some kind. For some games its a game genie, and others its a code you enter or achievement unlocked. Yet until now I have never seen such a heated debate about something, that you don't have to use, making a game easier.

I keep seeing the, "if you dont like it dont use it." and that is the truth.
If you didn't like the game genie... you didnt use it. Did knowing that there was a game genie out there take away from your enjoyment of a game? no.
Whats the difference here? ....besides your epeen.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

It's already been discussed that the "if you don't like it don't use it" point is false, since you can apply that to any major glitch, exploit, or overpowered skill. "There's this glitch that makes you get a billion k in one second. ANet doesn't have to do anything about it because if we don't like it we don't have to use it."

It's much deeper than personal choice. This is an online game, it affects people.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Well duh. I think that anyone talking about knows how 600 hp's were nerfed (I call them 600 hp, but it's just 600 monk...). Oh, and btw, they were nerfed a bit worse than Ursans. Why? Before I could (I mean I COULD, but of course they nerfed it 5 days after I finished leveling monk to 20 level on trolls) put Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond + IW and some stances (Elemental Resistance to lower armor, Mantra of Concentration/Resolve) and solo the smites + aatxes + probably few other monsters, as long as they hit hard. Now solo 600 is worse than 55 and requires a smiter.

You could do all that + Terrorwebs as a 55, but that's just nitpicking. The bigger impact was making the monk more vulnerable by relying on SoA (and knocking out a number of /Mo builds), which crippled farms like the Shiro'ken run which were vulnerable to interrupts.

Between prophecies and now the 55 monk template has continually gotten better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

Every game has a cheat mode of some kind.

How many online games have them available to players? If this is also the case, why are exploits/duping punished? Exactly the same logic applies to them - they don't hurt you, if you don't want them don't use them. The answer is logically because games are ideally meant to be fair, which means all players are on the same level. This is a problem in a game like Guild Wars where build design and tactics are so closely related in giving the game depth.

Don't try the 'because ANet intended Ursan' logic either, because what ANet intends and what is actually working/good for the game don't always stand together.

aapo · Feb 14, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's already been discussed that the "if you don't like it don't use it" point is false, since you can apply that to any major glitch, exploit, or overpowered skill. "There's this glitch that makes you get a billion k in one second. ANet doesn't have to do anything about it because if we don't like it we don't have to use it."

- You don't apply it correctly. Glitches, exploits and overpowered skills when it affects more people than just user are unfair, since they give advantage over others.

There was a bug that allowed some teams to get 12 players in GvG. This was unfair, because not everyone could have 12 players. If you start a GvG match with 6 people against normal teams with 8 people, this is fair, since you're only gimping yourself and not taking away from others. This is a very standard principle in ethical concerns.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- You don't apply it correctly. Glitches, exploits and overpowered skills when it affects more people than just user are unfair, since they give advantage over others.

There was a bug that allowed some teams to get 12 players in GvG. This was unfair, because not everyone could have 12 players. If you start a GvG match with 6 people against normal teams with 8 people, this is fair, since you're only gimping yourself and not taking away from others. This is a very standard principle in ethical concerns.

Which completely ignores his point about the 'billion k' style of thing. Other examples: outpost warping, Mallyx exploit, and duping. All provide considerable advantages but don't directly affect other players.

aapo · Feb 14, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Which completely ignores his point about the 'billion k' style of thing. Other examples: outpost warping, Mallyx exploit, and duping.

- Not everyone can have billion k, warp to outposts that don't exist and dupe items. Thus those things are unfair.

If it exists in the game and is intended, why does someone have ethical concerns about it? Is someone coming here to say that zoning outposts is "completely against the spirit of game" and "we should walk by foot everywhere"? I don't get it.

dubiel005 · Feb 14, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

seriously if you dont like ursan go find your self a group to do it the good old fashion way i dont understand why anyone requests a nerf of ursanway. if your that opposed of doing it find 8 ppl who hate ursan too and pug everything with them. ursan makes doa fun.

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

If it exists in the game and is intended, why does someone have ethical concerns about it? Is someone coming here to say that zoning outposts is "completely against the spirit of game" and "we should walk by foot everywhere"? I don't get it.

zoning has nothing to do with the matter at hand. thats really a pointless comparison. Try comparing Ursan to some other powerful build.

Ursan is very imbalanced compared to other builds. It has an efficacy that denies all other builds because it outshines them all.

Losing gameplay diversity and relegating staleness is bad for any game.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Not everyone can have billion k, warp to outposts that don't exist and dupe items. Thus those things are unfair.

Anyone could do those things, it was just that the methods to do them weren't widely known.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

If it exists in the game and is intended, why does someone have ethical concerns about it? Is someone coming here to say that zoning outposts is "completely against the spirit of game" and "we should walk by foot everywhere"? I don't get it.

It's generally the fact that this skill goes against the original spirit of the game ANet had originally intended.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Not everyone can have billion k, warp to outposts that don't exist and dupe items. Thus those things are unfair.

I do not know how to argue with this statement as it blatantly disagrees with reality.

Quote:

If it exists in the game and is intended, why does someone have ethical concerns about it? Is someone coming here to say that zoning outposts is "completely against the spirit of game" and "we should walk by foot everywhere"? I don't get it.

I don't see how walking or zoning has any connection to skill determining success.

There are a lot of connections between using overpowered, pre-made grind Builds and the lack of skill, especially in a game built on the concept of skillbar setup and skill balance.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubiel005

seriously if you dont like ursan go find your self a group to do it the good old fashion way i dont understand why anyone requests a nerf of ursanway. if your that opposed of doing it find 8 ppl who hate ursan too and pug everything with them. ursan makes doa fun.

Go back to page 1 and read everything again. Or don't post in this thread.

Aapo: You know what not everyone can pay $30 for a game? Many choose GW because it doesn't have monthly fee. So what should I understand - Use Ursan, but if you dont have GWEN, then you are screwed, sorry, go play other game? Someone worked hard for 2 years, now he can't afford 4th game and suddenly he can't do anything in PuG's anymore?

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Aapo: You know what not everyone can pay $30 for a game? Many choose GW because it doesn't have monthly fee. So what should I understand - Use Ursan, but if you dont have GWEN, then you are screwed, sorry, go play other game? Someone worked hard for 2 years, now he can't afford 4th game and suddenly he can't do anything in PuG's anymore?

This is something I agree with and have stated previous times, as well: Ursan Blessing doesn't help player discrimination. It may help class discrimination, but instead of no longer being divided by class ("mesmers? no thank you") people are divided by accounts ("no GWEN? no thank you.")

Numa Pompilius · Feb 14, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

A little birdie told me that Ursan is imba because anet would rather you buy the expansion than nerf something into oblivion and lose money.

Personally I think you're 100% right. Ursan is the killer feature of GW:EN.

Power creep is the very business model of Guild Wars - you're supposed to buy the expansions to get access to the new and more powerful skills... and skills don't come any more powerful than ursan. Hence, balancing ursan could well hurt sales of GW:EN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

How would you "balance" Ursan?

Actually it would be ridiculously easy to balance ursan: change the AoE knockdown to a single-target knockdown.
The reason that would balance ursan is because it'd remove the damage-mitigation-through-perma-knockdown.
By making the knockdown single-target, ursan no longer synergizes with itself, and there's no longer any real reason to have more than one ursan in the team.

romeus petrus · Feb 14, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I think given the fact that you don't see anything besides Ursanway in DoA might be an indicator of imbalance.No. It just worsens the problem.

By this logic the trinity build was over powered too.

zwei2stein · Feb 14, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Go back to page 1 and read everything again. Or don't post in this thread.

Aapo: You know what not everyone can pay $30 for a game? Many choose GW because it doesn't have monthly fee. So what should I understand - Use Ursan, but if you dont have GWEN, then you are screwed, sorry, go play other game? Someone worked hard for 2 years, now he can't afford 4th game and suddenly he can't do anything in PuG's anymore?

By his Aapos logic, ursan would be player harming exploit:

Not everyone can have ursan, just like not everyone can have factions and access to 12 man mission (which was necessary for 12 man GvG exploit.) (hell, not everyone has more than 6 people they can play GvG with, do we lower max party size for it?)

(But so would be anything except core skills and classes. And even that ...)

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

By this logic the trinity build was over powered too.

The difference is that even if you see the trinity as overpowered, you can prove that false by simply using Ursan to show how crappy the trinity is.

Theres very few builds that work in DOA. And those that do are still difficult. Ursan bulldozes through the shit. Thats not overpowered?

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

By this logic the trinity build was over powered too.

The trinity build was risky and for pugs was hella slow. Tanking in this game is as reliable as lockpicks. Not to mention that you still have a large amount of concerns to worry about. With Ursanway, you have to worry about much less.

Which part are you quoting by the way? Both my messages in that quote are applying to two different points.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

By this logic the trinity build was over powered too.

This would be true if not for the fact the trinity build is flawed and inefficient when compared to straight damage dealing on a backbone of passive defense. This is why few 'good' pve teams run it anymore.

zwei2stein · Feb 14, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The difference is that even if you see the trinity as overpowered, you can prove that false by simply using Ursan to show how crappy the trinity is.

And you can use lots of other builds to prove it even without Ursan.

Trinity is crappy build that forces players to become better because it is dull and fragile. People not choosing to become good players can play it at cost of being less effective.