Curse

DivineEnvoy · Feb 13, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

DivineEnvoy, you've taken everything he's said out of context and missed his point. Example: He's comparing bots/gold sellers to Ursan Blessing because neither bots or gold sellers impact your gameplay.

Again, that is not his point. He's just providing yet another example at how Ursan Blessing affects peoples' gameplay.

I could comment on more, but I'd essentially be repeating what Isileth posted. Please reread his post.

I'm just pointing out the fact that Anet sets the rules on what players can and can't do in this game. As far as I'm concerned, bots/gold sellers are not allowed according to EULA, while Ursan is allowed. In simple terms, such comparison is more or less just an exaggeration of using extreme bannable offends to enlarge the current situation. If Ursan is truly affecting the gameplay people have as you may believe, why hasn't Anet done anything, since this is the 20th thread that has been made about Ursan. Relevantly, if this is the truth, which many of us should be aware of, why would you even need to use an exaggeration in these arguments?

In all honesty, PvE is broken, and as we know, Ursan is just a temporary solution. With this said, I would appreciate anyone to make suggestions to make discriminated professions usable in PvE, but I would point out, many people do not have any solutions to give within these arguments, yet they want to take out the only solution we have so far. My point is, these people continue to claim that they care about the game and what not, but are they really just care about themselves, and their so-called elite status of accomplishing certain areas just because they are one of the less discriminated professions?

Bryant Again · Feb 13, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Again, you're not understanding what we're saying. If a person says "you can't complain about Ursan because you don't have to use it, hence it doesn't affect you," then that same person cannot complain about bots or about gold sellers - because they do not affect them. However, people do complain about it and do see it as a problem.

In other words, why is it okay for people to complain about bots and gold sellers (not about spammers, that's something different) but it's not okay if we complain about Ursan?

In terms of "helping undesired professions:" It doesn't help a whole lot in this regard because now you have to own a whole new $40 expansion. This applies to even the "wanted" professions. All in all, people still aren't playing how they'd like to, they're just seeing the content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

My point is, these people continue to claim that they care about the game and what not, but are they really just care about themselves, and their so-called elite status of accomplishing certain areas just because they are one of the less discriminated professions?

For me? It's wanting this game to not get shittier.

KingKryton · Feb 13, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In other words, why is it okay for people to complain about bots and gold sellers (not about spammers, that's something different) but it's not okay if we complain about Ursan?

Again, you're not understanding what we're saying. Botting and gold selling is against the eula and ursan isnt.

maybe you need to read divines post more carefully

Bryant Again · Feb 13, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingKryton

Again, you're not understanding what we're saying. Botting and gold selling is against the eula and ursan isnt.

And because of that it impacts your gameplay?

Kotetsu Rain · Feb 13, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Sheesh.... and I thought it was a cool thing to do leveling my Norn level. You know I totally understand where both viewpoints of Ursan Blessing are coming from. The thing is... well when I posted a thread about having 7 heroes in a party a topic came up about the fact that GW isn't a single player game and Anet actually wants to promote people playing eith each other.

It doesn't really relate to this but I'm just saying this is a form of people playing with eachother. I also say someone getting kicked out (or not accepted into) PUG's in elite areas because he didn't have a certain build. This way the less populair classes like mesmers and paragons can also take part in elite areas more easiley.

As far as I'm concerend there will always be different ways to play the game. This is definently one of them.

Mr None · Feb 13, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingKryton

um it has nothing to do with me learning to play. When i goto join a group in places like doa theyll ask "ping build" if its anything but obsidian tank then its a instant kick..

Then dont join teams but start them

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingKryton

i suppose you can do doa HM with H/H too

Not sure about HM but I definately did DoA NM with 6 heroes and a friend, all 4 areas, several times

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingKryton

im guessing your just another elitist who has hundred of ectos stored away and knows that with more people farming elite areas your precious supply will become worthless.

Hehe, mate, will you believe me If i say to you I currently have 40k in storage and 0 ectoes as well as 0 armbraces :-)

zwei2stein · Feb 13, 2008, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

No, I stated very clearly (to most) that giving the AI the same level as players would make the game rediculous (rediculous was the exact word I used). The AI needs to be many levels higher than human players to make the game challenging. And when u have a group of level 20 players fighting a mob of level 28-30, it is kinda hard to argue that "balance" exists in PvE..

Face it there is no balance in PvE, there never was, and there never will be.

"...there is no spoon".

Ummm ... lol?

That L28-30 monsters is equal to L20 human in power. What ai makes up by numbers human makes up by having brain.

Ballance of PvE is simply made if precentages:

95% of players should be able to complete NM camplaign and quests, explore whole map.
80% of players should be able to complete all expert quests and mission bonuses in NM
75% of players should be able to vanquish campaing
70% of players should be able to do HM missions
50% of players should be able to do HM missions with bonuses
10-40% of players should be able to do elite area (depending on area)
5% of players should be able to do HM elite area.

When you have huge disconnect between planned percents and reall percents, it means one of theese:
* poor design a) (content is much easier/harder than intended with given skills when done with ordinary builds)
* poor design b) (game is much easier thanks to overspecialized build/game is impossible without overspecialized build)
* bad playerbase (majority has no idea on how2p; everyone knows how2p)

Monsters are there to provide "balance" - L20 monster is balanced for 95% of population, L30 is balanced for 5%.

When it does not work (monster supposed to be easy is actually hard and road blocker for average joe, it is time for nerfing/buffing, when monster supposed to be hard even for elite jim but it is joke for 95% of population, it is time for nerfing/buffing)

KingKryton · Feb 13, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

5% of players should be able to do HM elite area.

but why should only 5% be able to do this?

when you buy a game you expect to be able to do everything in it thats what you pay for. I guess anet should be handing out refunds in this case.

anet i want 5% of the game cost back for each elite area i have never been able to complete let alone attempt with a chance of completion

GrimEye · Feb 13, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Ummm ... lol?

That L28-30 monsters is equal to L20 human in power. What ai makes up by numbers human makes up by having brain.

Ballance of PvE is simply made if precentages:

95% of players should be able to complete NM camplaign and quests, explore whole map.
80% of players should be able to complete all expert quests and mission bonuses in NM
75% of players should be able to vanquish campaing
70% of players should be able to do HM missions
50% of players should be able to do HM missions with bonuses
10-40% of players should be able to do elite area (depending on area)
5% of players should be able to do HM elite area.

When you have huge disconnect between planned percents and reall percents, it means one of theese:
* poor design a) (content is much easier/harder than intended with given skills when done with ordinary builds)
* poor design b) (game is much easier thanks to overspecialized build/game is impossible without overspecialized build)
* bad playerbase (majority has no idea on how2p; everyone knows how2p)

Monsters are there to provide "balance" - L20 monster is balanced for 95% of population, L30 is balanced for 5%.

When it does not work (monster supposed to be easy is actually hard and road blocker for average joe, it is time for nerfing/buffing, when monster supposed to be hard even for elite jim but it is joke for 95% of population, it is time for nerfing/buffing)

Your assumptions of percentage is unclear at best. Your assumption that there is a "plan percentage" and "real percentage" is not verifiable, if they exist at all. Even if they exist, the percentage reek of elitism.

Why would you want only "5%" or "10%" of the players to do certain areas? How would such percentage provide balance in the game? If 100% of player's base, not just "95%", manage to finish missions, quests, there is something wrong with the game? If "50%", not just "5%", is able to do HM Elite Missions, there is something wrong?

I appreciate abstract. But your abstraction is purely speculative and subjective. For purpose of argument, they stand on wobbly legs in relation to game balance.

BRYANT:

As I have said, URSAN is not a problem. It is a symptom, sign of something far deeper than a single skill. Your solution - taking out URSAN for good or for whatever degree of unusabiliy - wont solve whatever problems you attached to Ursan. Ursan is now just a convenient catch-all for all the frustration people have against GW. Take it out, and people will find another goat to blame. Or, just like the last Canthan festival, the pig got the poke.

If this game is getting shittier, it is because of old players. Where were the crusaders before this game became "shit"? Why were they not teaching people how to make "original and creative" builds, teach others of tactics and good play before Ursan came?

No matter how much mayonnaise you put in a chicken-shit salad, it is still chicken-shit.

Point is, GW1 is the salad gone spoiled. GW2 is the next salad, and we hope its NOT another manure.

Is this like playing like ring around the daisy? Or rosy?

My take.

DivineEnvoy · Feb 13, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Ummm ... lol?

That L28-30 monsters is equal to L20 human in power. What ai makes up by numbers human makes up by having brain.

Ballance of PvE is simply made if precentages:

95% of players should be able to complete NM camplaign and quests, explore whole map.
80% of players should be able to complete all expert quests and mission bonuses in NM
75% of players should be able to vanquish campaing
70% of players should be able to do HM missions
50% of players should be able to do HM missions with bonuses
10-40% of players should be able to do elite area (depending on area)
5% of players should be able to do HM elite area.

When you have huge disconnect between planned percents and reall percents, it means one of theese:
* poor design a) (content is much easier/harder than intended with given skills when done with ordinary builds)
* poor design b) (game is much easier thanks to overspecialized build/game is impossible without overspecialized build)
* bad playerbase (majority has no idea on how2p; everyone knows how2p)

Monsters are there to provide "balance" - L20 monster is balanced for 95% of population, L30 is balanced for 5%.

When it does not work (monster supposed to be easy is actually hard and road blocker for average joe, it is time for nerfing/buffing, when monster supposed to be hard even for elite jim but it is joke for 95% of population, it is time for nerfing/buffing)

First thing first, how does such balance affect your gameplay?

Generally speaking, let's look at the situation with person A and person B, where they are in separate instances. If person A accomplishes task C, person B is unaffected, because as we all know, we have different instances. Nonetheless, the only way I can see how person A would affect person B is the fact that person B actually believes that only certain people deserve to accomplish the given task. The truth is, this is no more than an opinion, and thus it should not have any effect to both players as they both purchased the game with their own money.

In this case, you are basically saying only a certain percentage of the population should be able to complete certain given tasks just because you believe this is a balance that's mandatory to the game. In simple terms, you are expecting Anet to restrict the areas the general population can play in just because you believe in such balance. This implies that you are more or less just an elitist, who wants to hold a certain title or accomplishment to himself. Sorry to burst your bubble; these titles and accomplishments don't even worth a cent to anyone else but yourself. My point is, if you have to be in a competition with other people to find enjoyment to your progress of gaming, even knowing that such competition never existed, what's really the point?

Consequently, this reminds me of the days of early release of Factions, where this guild had control over Cavalon. I still remembered the rumors about this guild kicking its members for not farming Luxon factions fast enough. And whenever someone else asks for a ferry, the members within this guild would reply that no one else is worthy to play in The Deep like them. Later, another guild came and took over Cavalon. They ferried people into The Deep for free, and many of us appreciated that. I believe they are remembered upto this day as they ended the dictatorship of Cavalon. Relevantly, what's the difference between people like you and the members of the former guild that controlled Cavalon?

zwei2stein · Feb 13, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingKryton

but why should only 5% be able to do this?

when you buy a game you expect to be able to do everything in it thats what you pay for. I guess anet should be handing out refunds in this case.

anet i want 5% of the game cost back for each elite area i have never been able to complete let alone attempt with a chance of completion

Anet, i want 95% of cost back because other areas bore me.

see what i did there?

Will all the seriousness: why dont you demand refund because you never got rare skin x? you paid for RIGHT to have it, correct? Thus if game does not give it to you, you were scammed.

Quest too hard? Get 5 cents from anet back! Those scammers, you should be able to do every signle quest, you paid for it!.

OMG, you dont have maxxed gold storage? surely, you must have everything in game, you paid for damn thing: get refund, because anet failed to provide you with enough gold!

---

GrimEye:

Actualy, my percentages are (imho) quite correct. A big number of player percentage never completes campaign. They either just cant or loose drive or dont have fun doing it. Saying that 5% of players never complete game is quite underestimation.

Those precentages are not about barriers: they are also about having fun (those 5% areas are not designed to be fun for huge percentage of population - they would frustrate it, thats why they dont see bigger percents, but when they )

Also, those "for 5%" areas have one important feature: they make up for fact that they are only challenging part of game for those 5%. ...

You get general population which has 95% of game to play in (because tiny portion is frustrating) and is content with it.
Then you get "elite" population which only has 5% of game to play in (because rest of game is boring) and is content with it.

The way i see it, elitists actually loose out in this equation. There is pretty much no point in taking THAT away.

enmitee · Feb 13, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

ursan haters just QQ more. cuz the thing is people are getting the same rewards you "worked hard for" by just using ursan. just pwned imo

Isileth · Feb 13, 2008, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Well a quick thanks for Bryant deffending my points while I was asleep

And yes you did miss pretty much all the points in my post Divine, ill try and reply to what you said though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

No, I stated very clearly (to most) that giving the AI the same level as players would make the game rediculous (rediculous was the exact word I used). The AI needs to be many levels higher than human players to make the game challenging. And when u have a group of level 20 players fighting a mob of level 28-30, it is kinda hard to argue that "balance" exists in PvE..

Face it there is no balance in PvE, there never was, and there never will be.

"...there is no spoon".

Thats because you are viewing balance here as X must = Y

In PvE this obviousely cant work when the player is "better" than the AI.
So you need to give the AI some form of advantage.

It becomes X = Y+Z.

Its balanced because the AI team becomes a challenge, not because both teams are at the same level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

After two years or so at this point, where people have invented thousands of ways to farm nearly anything, you are telling me as if Ursan is the only affection to the prices of items.

Did I say it was the only thing that had an effect?
Just because other things can doesnt suddenly make the point dissapear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Last time I checked, bots, gold sellers, cheaters are against EULA. And apparantly, Ursan isn't against EULA. So how are these reasons relevant?

This is the one where you miss the point big time.

By that logic if cheating wasnt mentioned in the EULA it would be ok right?

Why do you think things are put into the EULA? Because Anet figures it would be funny? Or because if it was allowed it would have a negative effect on the game?

Just because something isnt in the EULA however doesnt mean it doesnt have a negative effect on the game. I think you can see from how many people are against UB in its current form that more than a few people think it has a negative effect on the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

While we are on the topic, unbalanced gameplay, would it be possible for you to explain to me why the monsters in Hard Mode have infinite amount of energy, which made most Inspiration spells totally worthless?

Because that sort of thing is required to make it a challenge, HM isnt meant to be balance. Its meant to be a challenge.
If the AI team had to work within the same limits as a player it would lose every single time because its AI controlled v player controlled.

To make it balanced in NM and a challenge in HM the AI needs an advantage.
As I said before balance in PvE is not X = Y.

Because the AI will never be able to play at the same level as a team of players.
The AI cant change its build.
etc

The player will always have an advantage and so it needs to be balanced out with an advantage for the AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

In this logic, if I'm not interpreting it falsely, you are basically saying how additional options should not have been rewarded from the time spent, which would grant players more power. Well in this sense, if we are going to nerf Ursan, shouldn't we nerf all the available runs throughout the game as well, since they are just more options granted from spending time into farming, as well as the fact that the consumers have power over the area simply because they have a runner?

Are you saying a runner is overpowered? That a runner makes killing AI teams far to easy?

All running does is let players skip parts of the game they dont enjoy.
Overpowered skills kill game balance by making it to easy.

Its hardly the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Perhaps we shouldn't even let human players party together; like you said, the game is supposed to skill over time, so if a player decides to make a friend or so, and maybe he would ask this friend to help out on a mission or two, that would be rewards granted over the time spent into socializing with people, which will allow this inexperienced player to have power over these missions.

Right because thats quite obviousely the same as rewarding power based on time spent grinding.

The quality of your team is an outside factor. You cant grind a better team. You cant buy a better team.
Your teams skill is based on the skill of the players and how they work together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

It really depends what you mean by the game being balanced. If it is what Anet's standards of being balanced is, then it will happen, but if it is just your opinion to what balanced should be, it really doesn't give you the right to dictate what other players should do.

And at which point am I dictating? Just like you im here giving my opinion.
My opinion is UB is overpowered.
My opinion is that overpowered skill are bad for the game.
My opinion is that things that are bad for the game are bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

In all honesty, PvE is broken, and as we know, Ursan is just a temporary solution. With this said, I would appreciate anyone to make suggestions to make discriminated professions usable in PvE, but I would point out, many people do not have any solutions to give within these arguments, yet they want to take out the only solution we have so far. My point is, these people continue to claim that they care about the game and what not, but are they really just care about themselves, and their so-called elite status of accomplishing certain areas just because they are one of the less discriminated professions?

Do you really believe that a mesmer for example plays as a mesmer so they can play as a frontline melee char?

In my opinion UB doesnt allow unwanted proffesions to play more. It just turns them into another proffesion.

It doesnt make mesmers more wanted in PvE. It just lets them turn into a frontline char.
It doesnt make different team builds wanted, it just makes it irrelevant.

It removes any skill required from the game. As long as you have the time to grind UB you can go ahead and never have a challenge again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

First thing first, how does such balance affect your gameplay?

Generally speaking, let's look at the situation with person A and person B, where they are in separate instances. If person A accomplishes task C, person B is unaffected, because as we all know, we have different instances. Nonetheless, the only way I can see how person A would affect person B is the fact that person B actually believes that only certain people deserve to accomplish the given task. The truth is, this is no more than an opinion, and thus it should not have any effect to both players as they both purchased the game with their own money.

Well let me ask you a question.

How do bots effect you?
How do gold sellers effect you?
How does people cheating effect you?

Please note an answer here of, they are against the EULA doesnt work. That doesnt explain how it effects you.

By what you are saying it doesnt effect you.
Because what they do ingame doesnt effect you right?

If they dupe some rare item that doesnt effect you does it?
If they have a bot to farm an area that doesnt effect you right?
If they use an exploit to ensure they always win that doesnt effect you.

Im fairly sure that you do think that effects you, and guess what? It does.
So does having an overpowered skill.

Just because it happens in their own instance doesnt stop it effecting others, this is an online game.
Other players effect each other.

Tyla · Feb 13, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by enmitee

ursan haters just QQ more. cuz the thing is people are getting the same rewards you "worked hard for" by just using ursan. just pwned imo

You understand the amount of guilds that ONLY play UB? And req you to have a high rank...
Like PuGs, surprisingly...

Crom The Pale · Feb 13, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

This has been said before but I'll repeat it once more...

Skills are never a problem, its how people use those skills.

Players have always demanded in PuG's and some Guilds that players run certain builds from necros using MM or Wars with Obsidian Flesh, now its Ursan Blessing.

Must we nerf every skill in the game to stop OTHER people from using builds we do not like????

Bryant Again · Feb 13, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Np Isileth : P I do what I can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

As I have said, URSAN is not a problem. It is a symptom, sign of something far deeper than a single skill. Your solution - taking out URSAN for good or for whatever degree of unusabiliy - wont solve whatever problems you attached to Ursan.

I never asked to remove Ursan. And what is this "symptom" you speak of? Could you elaborate a bit on this?

Nonetheless, it does little to "fix" anything. People are still not playing as they want, and people are still not getting into groups. UB in its current state does more harm than good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

If this game is getting shittier, it is because of old players. Where were the crusaders before this game became "shit"? Why were they not teaching people how to make "original and creative" builds, teach others of tactics and good play before Ursan came?

They were off playing the game the way they wanted to, just like everybody else.

That's not the only part of the problem, though. It's also how UB lowers the difficulty of any situation significantly. Me and my friends are very good buildmakers, but our creativity can rarely hold a candle to the power and simplicity of Ursanway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Point is, GW1 is the salad gone spoiled. GW2 is the next salad, and we hope its NOT another manure.

But could it at least be helped with a balance to UB, or should we give up on GW1 altogether? Keep in mind that it will still exist far after GW2 is released.

roshanabey2 · Feb 13, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

lol I can understand some peoples annoyance when a thread like this is made, i made one only 4 weeks ago

aapo · Feb 13, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Ballance of PvE is simply made if precentages:

95% of players should be able to complete NM camplaign and quests, explore whole map.
80% of players should be able to complete all expert quests and mission bonuses in NM
75% of players should be able to vanquish campaing
70% of players should be able to do HM missions
50% of players should be able to do HM missions with bonuses
10-40% of players should be able to do elite area (depending on area)
5% of players should be able to do HM elite area.

- Ironically the only way you're going to achieve this is by building a game of grind, because time spend is the only variable in which people differ as far as computer games go. You see why this game is not chess? You're not playing on even field against even opponent, you never could be. AI is just pathetic. Besides you have full build synergy of 8 people, what does AI have? Less than full groups of 1-4 different professions, each monster with about 3 skills in bar. You can change your skillbars if it doesn't work, AI can't. You can share the knowledge in Internet, AI can't.

Yours is just a strawman argument that comes from childish fixation that what is branded "elite" should be only for "elite". First you'd have to define what exactly is this "elite".

Bryant Again · Feb 13, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Ironically the only way you're going to achieve this is by building a game of grind, because time spend is the only variable in which people differ as far as computer games go.

That's if you consider "playing and learning the game" to be grind. If you do, then how do you enjoy games?

The challenge of Guild Wars is not "playing your build well" but trying to put together the best team build for the area you plan to go in. You have to take in account that you'll encounter this group of baddies and that group of baddies, and make sure that your team build doesn't conflict in their favor.

And if the AI is so easy, why do people still have trouble in certain areas, or with certain monsters? It's obviously a bit more complex that what we think.

zwei2stein · Feb 13, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Ironically the only way you're going to achieve this is by building a game of grind, because time spend is the only variable in which people differ as far as computer games go.

(you need correct definition of strawman btw. It is refuting argument by refuting something different and claiming you refuted orignial point. It is not explaining your point.)

Fine, if Time wins, replicate "Mallyx With Heroes" ... ups, you cant. Many people tried and could not, even if they 100% followed builds and strategy from that thread.

It was because they didn't have what it took to run that successfully.

If you check out forum section about campaigns, you see that quite few people complain there that they cannot complete X, and that X is usually very varied, from quests to vanquishing certain area.

Moreover, i know person which started GW 2 months ago. Now he is happily vanquishing. Doing feats that many oldtimers find impossible or on edge of their abilities.

Pure Skill > Time

Your "grind" format puts all those percentages to 100% - everyone can do everything by simply grinding long enough.

It is one of backbones of pro-ursan movement: people who spent lots of time ingame still could not beat everything. Ursan gives them ability to make that time spent matter. (IMO)