Curse

Esan · Apr 01, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I wonder why NCsoft (or its Asian surrogates) does not give the Taiwanese players the opportunity to move their characters to US/Eu/Kr servers. Surely if they are playing on US/Eu/Kr servers then they can apply US/Eu/Kr laws to shut gold marketing sites down.

What I find bizarre is that this new law apparently is designed to shield gold selling companies from legal liability. Were NCsoft actually planning to sue any of them? I really don't see how simply blacklisting the IPs of gold selling companies and open proxies can be illegal. Can anyone who groks the Taiwanese legal system (on guru? haha, I'm naive as a kitten) tell us what this law really says?

Masao · Apr 01, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by A mummified one

I do not agree to treat my friend from Taiwan like a criminalist that must be isolated - simply because he's from Taiwan.

I'm totally disappointed -.- What's next? Turning off the servers in Holland, because some pedophiles might get into the game? Isolating players from Romania, because they might steal the gold from other players by hacking their accounts? Stereotypes and stupidity. -.-

You're missing the point.

Previously ANet was banning botters and gold sellers from any county. Suddenly allowing one country to be a hotbed of botters and gold sellers, which is in fact confirmed since there are indeed gold farming sweatshops for almost every major online game in Taiwan, China and Indonesia, will destroy what is left of the ingame economy.

Legislation that prevents ANet from enforcing their ToS and EULA detriments the game as a whole and thus it is in NCSoft's best interests to restrict access of the affected area.

Comparing pedophiles to legal gold farming? You're not even comparing apples and oranges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I wonder why NCsoft (or its Asian surrogates) does not give the Taiwanese players the opportunity to move their characters to US/Eu/Kr servers. Surely if they are playing on US/Eu/Kr servers then they can apply US/Eu/Kr laws to shut gold marketing sites down.

What I find bizarre is that this new law apparently is designed to shield gold selling companies from legal liability. Were NCsoft actually planning to sue any of them? I really don't see how simply blacklisting the IPs of gold selling companies and open proxies can be illegal. Can anyone who groks the Taiwanese legal system (on guru? haha, I'm naive as a kitten) tell us what this law really says?

Sigh. Laymen don't understand the law.

Internet connections to a country are tenuous. The Taiwanese government would sue ANet/NCTaiwan because banning someone would be out of ANet/NCTaiwan's jurisdictional rights to deny service. You can't just switch servers and then be subject to the law of the country that runs that server. You have to satisfy sufficient and substantial continuous contacts, minimum contacts, and the long arm statute has to be able to reach into the state of residence to grab the person, and you have to satisfy some test that will get you minimum contacts, usually Burger King or stream of commerce plus.

Internationally, this is an even harder requirement to satisfy.

cgruber · Apr 01, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

It's about control. Many companies will simply close up shop in an area that is deemed to be too much hassle to operate.

With a law like this the government has basically told ANET they can't do ANYTHING to deal with gold sellers in those countries.

It's stupid law, the goverment should be working on getting more jobs for it's citzens instead of promoting gold selling as an occupation.

Esan · Apr 01, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

Sigh. Laymen don't understand the law.

Indeed. You provide ample evidence of this with statements such as:

Quote:

The Taiwanese government would sue ANet/NCTaiwan because banning someone would be out of ANet/NCTaiwan's jurisdictional rights to deny service.

Real experts plz.

Masao · Apr 01, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Indeed. You provide ample evidence of this with statements such as:

Real experts plz.

First year law student. I'm as close to an expert as you'll get.

ANet and NCSoft have no right to enforce their contractual agreements if it is against the law in the jurisdiction they attempt to enforce them in.

Therefore they have no jurisdictional rights in Taiwan.

The Taiwanese government would be able to sue on behalf of it's citizens to recover for breach of what I'm assuming is going to be statute in Taiwan as of today.

EDIT: Last I heard they were all running trial accounts that they didn't have to pay for. Any truth to this?

Esan · Apr 01, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

First year law student. I'm as close to an expert as you'll get.

You might need to pay a bit more attention in class.

Quote:

ANet and NCSoft have no right to enforce their contractual agreements if it is against the law in the jurisdiction they attempt to enforce them in.

First of all, let us be clear that you haven't read the law in question (neither have, nor indeed can, I), so this is all guesswork about what the law says.

Next, I am sure even a first year law student can see the difference between private and public property. Now black may be white in Taiwan for all I know, but I doubt NCsoft's contract with their customers actually transferred any property rights to the customers. NCsoft still owns all virtual data related to player accounts. (Correct me if I am wrong here, but only if you can provide citations.) It is this right that allows NCsoft to close up shop in Taiwan: if the players owned any of that data, NCsoft would be committing theft.

Hence, if Anet decides to terminate any account, they are legally in the clear.

What this law does or at least appears to do is to protect gold selling companies from lawsuits by NCsoft. I really doubt there was ever any likely danger of NCsoft being sued by gold selling companies. What would their grievance be? Loss of property? They never owned any! Denial of service? Nope, contract says (I presume) service can be terminated at NCsoft's whim.

(Arguing legal mumbo jumbo with anonymouses on a game forum is not how I planned to spend a quiet evening, so I'll let you have the last word.)

**cosyfiep** · Apr 01, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

unfortunately I doubt that they (the people who can no longer play) will be able to do anything since---welll yes they bought the game, and yes they did get to play it, so anet/ncsoft has fulfilled their end of the bargain---so no suing will get them anything.
Now some loud protests might get some eyes to notice them.....

it truly succks, and my heart goes out to those who have just been screewed over by this----I hope things turn out!

Inde · Apr 01, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

From Gaile Gray:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We regret the need to make changes to accounts playing from Taiwan. But as I am sure you will appreciate, we must honour the laws of the country in which we offer service. Because the new laws have the potential for an enormously negative impact on the game as a whole, we had no other choice but to make the changes that went into place on April 1st.

I didn't realize that Taiwan has a law saying that gold farmers can't be banned? I'm sure it's obviously more detailed but I'm wondering what this law says.

Edit: Obviously I should have read up and seen Esan's posts. Has to do with virtual property.

Alex the Great · Apr 01, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

omg, quit QQing!!!

It is not to get rid of bots, they just didn't renew the contract!

should we let them have Guild wars for free?

gone · Apr 01, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Could someone with the translation skills please get a hold of the Taiwanese laws(about botters and their accounts) that state their rights(LoL if they have any) within the country? I'd like to give them a read thru.

-T.I.A.

Dallcingi · Apr 01, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

It's probably not April fools since China/Taiwan have been harsh on gaming... yeah..

Ravious · Apr 01, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Loss of property? They never owned any!

You also clearly don't know what you are talking about. I think you are thinking way too far down the path of American-type property, and not with a very different culture/government/ideals of Taiwan.

Although Masao is not 100% correct, Masao is more correct than you. As to whether I am a lawyer, I'd rather not say (and that should answer that). And no, I don't feel like clearing things up.

afya · Apr 01, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

From Gaile Gray:

I didn't realize that Taiwan has a law saying that gold farmers can't be banned? I'm sure it's obviously more detailed but I'm wondering what this law says.

Edit: Obviously I should have read up and seen Esan's posts. Has to do with virtual property.

As I mentioned before, the government won't function until 5/20/08, I doubt there would be any law that would apply before the new government function.(I'm not any law expert so I tried to google the new internet law, but I couldn't find any that would apply on 04/01/08.)

Most-likely, NCSoft/NCTaiwan is lying. The whatever law doesn't exist at all, if it does, please at least post it in the dev update or so.

The closed pve and pvp change DOES matter. Because of the small population of the Taiwan district, it is difficult to do trade between ourselves, and now the chance of trading in international district has even been removed(

byebye, sell and highend forums). GvG doesn't matter much, but any other kind of PvP PUGS would die. RA sync would start growing in Taiwan district coz we have so few players in the district, why don't we just change our build and sync~lol. And lastly, no more deep pugs for me.

Now all the taiwan account have to accept another EULA. I didn't accept it. Many of us don't. We dunno if any of those rules would destroy our chance of getting our right back.

Tell me the truth! NCT/NCSoft!!!

KiyaKoreena · Apr 01, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Bah annoyance for me. Our guild was created in Taiwan (so we could have our tag in Chinese) and today Merchant, Rune Trader, Guild Lord, and Priest of Balthazar in the hall stopped working. There goes a two year old guild and hall.

ShoGunTheOne · Apr 01, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWTaiwan

親愛的激戰玩家您好：

在公佈停止代理後，我們在討論版上看見了許多玩家的疑慮。為避免不必要的恐慌，吉恩立再次向所有玩家說明，即使5/1停止台港澳的激戰代理合約，並不會影響玩家繼續進行激戰的權益。玩家仍可以繼續進入激戰遊戲，體驗激戰遊戲。
相信所有的玩家必定知道，台版與美版在營運下有部分模式是不相同的，例如，台版收費有【月費制度】但美版並沒有，正因具有這些不同的營運方式，在雙邊的資料庫上有部分是不相同的，因此我們正在與美國研發商討論，在停止代理後，要如何繼續提供服務給各種不同收費模式下的玩家。

目前吉恩立正與原廠ArenaNet進行會員後續遊戲權益以及遊戲方式的細部討論，由於部分作業牽涉到技術的層面，因此我們需要多一點點的討論時間，以確保雙方同意的方式在技術上也是相同可行的。

再次提醒玩家，5/1號後您將可以繼續進行激戰，在此提醒玩家近期勿隨意刪除自己的角色與物品，以免喪失權益。

吉恩立營運團隊敬上

http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/news/n...bid=13305&ct=2

Basicly what they're saying is that EU/US server and TW servers are quite different. for example, Payment methods, as the EU/US accounts are bought with a once off payment, but Taiwan accounts works on a monthly payment. and because of this, the data base is also a bit different. so now they're discussing with ANet how to provide service to each type of payment group.

I think they're trying to say here that monthly payment accounts stand a bigger chance of being a Goldfarmer/bot account. as they don't have to pay that much initially for an account, so they will just get multiple accounts and will probibly get just enough money to pay off the account and perhaps a little profit. well...if you understand what i mean

Nevin · Apr 01, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Its just Taiwan... 50% of the people in the US couldn't even locate it on a map, must be april fools!

Vamis Threen · Apr 01, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I had two emotions upon reading this thread.

The first was a mild sense of sadness; sad because this is clearly an injustice, but tempered by the knowledge that GW is a computer game, and not significant in the larger scheme of things.

The second, unrestrained mirth;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

First year law student. I'm as close to an expert as you'll get.

Corporate lawyer at multinational software firm, anyone? Publc notary? Perhaps even a second year student?

**cosyfiep** · Apr 01, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

As I mentioned before, the government won't function until 5/20/08, I doubt there would be any law that would apply before the new government function.(I'm not any law expert so I tried to google the new internet law, but I couldn't find any that would apply on 04/01/08.)

Most-likely, NCSoft/NCTaiwan is lying. The whatever law doesn't exist at all, if it does, please at least post it in the dev update or so.

The closed pve and pvp change DOES matter. Because of the small population of the Taiwan district, it is difficult to do trade between ourselves, and now the chance of trading in international district has even been removed(

byebye, sell and highend forums). GvG doesn't matter much, but any other kind of PvP PUGS would die. RA sync would start growing in Taiwan district coz we have so few players in the district, why don't we just change our build and sync~lol. And lastly, no more deep pugs for me.

Now all the taiwan account have to accept another EULA. I didn't accept it. Many of us don't. We dunno if any of those rules would destroy our chance of getting our right back.

Tell me the truth! NCT/NCSoft!!!

so there goes all those pandas, onis, rain callers----all those minis that were sprinkled liberally over the Asian areas......

afya---i hope your protest works!!! Its a sad day in gw history, not because of the stupid minis but because of stupid governments. We are cheering you on!!!!

Dante the Warlord · Apr 01, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Asians don't have april fool's, why because we never laugh....and when we do we are faking

The Toe Tag · Apr 02, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

soooo this whole thing is cuz they are crying the cant Sell there Gold? wtf ,dont they have bigger probs to worry about.So theres 2 Gws now GW:The real version and GW: Rise of the bots?