Curse

MoriaOrc · Apr 10, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

you harp on about people not knowing what LS is then go on about rune prices for low end market!!!

Removing LS would lower all the minor rune prices and material prices. Tell me you can see this

Minor runes and insignias would certainly drop more in farm runs. Whether or not the increased availability would offset the inflation is speculation. I'll grant that it's probable, and give you one of the "valuable to casuals" categories that would become cheaper without LS.

Superior rune drop rates would be essentially unchanged (gold armor drops are LS exempt), meaning that Sup Vigors and those caster runes that are usually superior in PvE (just look through and spot the 1k+ superiors, things like monk runes, fire, death) would increase in price.

Rare crafting materials are also LS-exempt. Same drop rate, more money to buy them with = increased price.

I was thinking more so of rare crafting materials when I said that, as the prices of the common crafting materials have been more affected recently by demand for consumables in PuGing than by the actual drop rate of the materials. Maybe the removal of LS would have more of an effect than it's introduction did, I think not personally. Call it a tie here?

The other category I mentioned, particularly weapon mods, are also primarily from LS-Exempt sources (gold weapon drops). I can remember shortly after HM and LS's introduction (when the prices still hadn't caught up to the changes) when I could sell my bag full of Strength and Honor mods for 5-6k each and be done in half an hour. While I'd like to be able to do that again, I'd hate to pinch pennies trying to afford Forget Me Not for new focuses in that kind of economy.

Take away:
Yes, minor runes and regular crafting materials might drop in price a little. These are, on average, the cheapest player economy expenses of the low end player. Other things that have been traditionally more expensive, weapon mods, superior runes, and rare crafting materials, would probably increase in price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

HM increased the supply of rare items reducing their prices.
HM had the biggest impact on rare price items than LS by a large margin.

Loot scaling is at least as much responsible for this as Hard Mode.

Anti-Farm (pre-loot scaling): Repetitive farming yields mostly whites and blues. When you repetitively enter a zone, high end drops like golds and rare materials decrease in frequency.
Loot Scaling: Rapid killing and smaller party sizes (read: repetitive farming) decreases the frequency of low end drops like whites and blues. High end drops like golds and rare materials are exempt from this.

Cab Tastic · Apr 10, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoriaOrc

Minor runes and insignias would certainly drop more in farm runs. Whether or not the increased availability would offset the inflation is speculation. I'll grant that it's probable, and give you one of the "valuable to casuals" categories that would become cheaper without LS.

Superior rune drop rates would be essentially unchanged (gold armor drops are LS exempt), meaning that Sup Vigors and those caster runes that are usually superior in PvE (just look through and spot the 1k+ superiors, things like monk runes, fire, death) would increase in price.

Rare crafting materials are also LS-exempt. Same drop rate, more money to buy them with = increased price.

I was thinking more so of rare crafting materials when I said that, as the prices of the common crafting materials have been more affected recently by demand for consumables in PuGing than by the actual drop rate of the materials. Maybe the removal of LS would have more of an effect than it's introduction did, I think not personally. Call it a tie here?

The other category I mentioned, particularly weapon mods, are also primarily from LS-Exempt sources (gold weapon drops). I can remember shortly after HM and LS's introduction (when the prices still hadn't caught up to the changes) when I could sell my bag full of Strength and Honor mods for 5-6k each and be done in half an hour. While I'd like to be able to do that again, I'd hate to pinch pennies trying to afford Forget Me Not for new focuses in that kind of economy.

Take away:
Yes, minor runes and regular crafting materials might drop in price a little. These are, on average, the cheapest player economy expenses of the low end player. Other things that have been traditionally more expensive, weapon mods, superior runes, and rare crafting materials, would probably increase in price.

Loot scaling is at least as much responsible for this as Hard Mode.

Anti-Farm (pre-loot scaling): Repetitive farming yields mostly whites and blues. When you repetitively enter a zone, high end drops like golds and rare materials decrease in frequency.
Loot Scaling: Rapid killing and smaller party sizes (read: repetitive farming) decreases the frequency of low end drops like whites and blues. High end drops like golds and rare materials are exempt from this.

We are getting round to where we were many pages ago. The pro LS believe inflation would occur if LS was removed. The anti LS believe there would be not much impact on the rare item prices due to the increased supply from HM.

How about we take it from this perspective. This poll has been accused of being biases due to the fact that only a minority of players read forums/farm. The vast majority being casual players who always have full parties, play thorugh missions etc.

How much impact are these players likely to have on the economy. I am a farmer but my gold usually goes on gold sinks, afk on nine rings, lockpicks etc. I would like to hear where other farmers money goes. I don't think i have ever bought a high end item/mini pet so I have not impacted on demand there.

Dark Kal · Apr 10, 2008, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Superior Absorption came when it became known that the reduction is vs. physical only and non-stacking and non-universal (it may have been that way from the beginning - don't remember - but at some point it was explicitly stated).

You are ofcourse wrong again. Super Absorption does have a universal effect, Knight's insignias used to be universal but have been changed to local. Super Absorption does stack with Knight's insignia, it just doesn't stack with minor or major runes of Absorption which it has never done.
The reason the price dropped was mainly because they increased the droprate for both Superior Absorbtion and Superior Vigor, and the fact they nerfed absorption as a whole.

Hengis · Apr 10, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Lots of interesting comments and two very opposed points of view.

My own opinion is that I think the game has lost some appeal now that hardly anything has any value. There used to be that thrill of getting a weapon drop with a perfect mod and knowing that you could sell it for for a reasonable amount.

Now there are very few things that are worth spending the time selling.

For the first time in ages I actually did some serious farming yesterday. I collected about 15 gold drops that I IDd for my title, but I could just not be bothered to salvage and try and sell the mods that included a couple of 15^50 inscriptions, a +30hp bow grip, and a 20/20 sundering bow string.

Just have a look on Guru auctions for these items - you will find loads not selling at 2K. Sure I could probably have sold them for 1K each, but to be honest I just didn't think it was worth the effort. In the time I took to sell them I could do another two or three HM raptor runs, so that is what I did and the merchant got the weapons.

In my opinion if you are merchanting weapons with perfect mods instead of salvaging and selling the mods, or even selling the weapons whole, because you can farm almost the same amount of money in the same amount of time and have the chance of getting something better drop, then the prices have fallen too far.

I can't say I really want things to be back to mods selling for 100K, but I do think that there should be some rebalancing of the economy.

Fay Vert · Apr 10, 2008, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I see some people are still persisting with the inflation myth. In the two years prior to the loot nerf, prices went down, thats deflation. So there is zero evidence to suggest that inflation would occur.

reetkever · Apr 10, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I see some people are still persisting with the inflation myth. In the two years prior to the loot nerf, prices went down, thats deflation. So there is zero evidence to suggest that inflation would occur.

It's only logical that the inflation bs keeps getting repeated - it's the only possible reason as to why someone would be AGAINST Loot Scaling.

I still think that the pro-LS people here are rich elitists who want to keep their farmspots and don't want others to become wealthy. Really, the only good point that the pro-LS people are making is the inflation, the rest is just based on their personal experiences in the game ("I can make 100K per hour so everyone can"), selfishness ("omg I can maek 100K per minute with MY farm run! If LS gets remoevd people can gfet money wai 2 quikc!") and personal attacks on anti-LS people (I can make cash easily, you whine, you lie etc").

cebalrai · Apr 10, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

I still think that the pro-LS people here are rich elitists who want to keep their farmspots and don't want others to become wealthy.

No actually it's the opposite. The anti-LS people want their play style to be richly rewarded while non solo-farmers get poorer and poorer, relatively speaking. In fact, they think they deserve EIGHT TIMES the reward of normal players. See how that works?

Dark Kal · Apr 10, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

No actually it's the opposite. The anti-LS people want their play style to be richly rewarded while non solo-farmers get poorer and poorer, relatively speaking. In fact, they think they deserve EIGHT TIMES the reward of normal players. See how that works?

Solo farmers do the work of 8 people but only get 1/8 of what they deserve, while normal players have 8 times more assistence and still get the same amount of loot, how exactly is this fair???

cebalrai · Apr 10, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I see some people are still persisting with the inflation myth. In the two years prior to the loot nerf, prices went down, thats deflation. So there is zero evidence to suggest that inflation would occur.

I think it's still fair to point out how much the economy has changed since the implementation of LS - and to suggest that the price of higher-end items would inflate.

Sleeper Service · Apr 10, 2008, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Solo farmers do the work of 8 people but only get 1/8 of what they deserve, while normal players have 8 times more assistence and still get the same amount of loot, how exactly is this fair???

they do it 8 time slower.

MithranArkanere · Apr 10, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Solo farmers do the work of 8 people but only get 1/8 of what they deserve, while normal players have 8 times more assistence and still get the same amount of loot, how exactly is this fair???

That is incorrect.

Solo farmers do the job of 1 person. 1 solo farming build bearer.

Solo builds are usually meant to use the numbers of the monsters against them or just completely ignore the number of the enemies.
Best farming builds work like that, getting more health and/or energy the more enemies attack you.

Cab Tastic · Apr 10, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

I think it's still fair to point out how much the economy has changed since the implementation of LS - and to suggest that the price of higher-end items would inflate.

This is a fairly typical quote from the pro LS contingent. Make a broad sweeping statement with no meat at all. No theories, no facts.

Savio · Apr 10, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

In the two years prior to the loot nerf, prices went down, thats deflation.

Prices mainly went down due to major changes in drops, basically when new chapters were released. Inbetween those updates, there were quite a few times when prices went up.

reetkever · Apr 10, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

No actually it's the opposite. The anti-LS people want their play style to be richly rewarded while non solo-farmers get poorer and poorer, relatively speaking. In fact, they think they deserve EIGHT TIMES the reward of normal players. See how that works?

Again, casual farming (Trolls, vermin etc) does NOT make one rich. The reward is poor and nothing compared to the hardcore farm runs of these days. Solo-farming might get 8x more drops than someone who farms in a party of 8, but most farms that require 8 people get MUCH better drops that are worth more than 8 times the reward of solo-farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

I think it's still fair to point out how much the economy has changed since the implementation of LS - and to suggest that the price of higher-end items would inflate.

Fine then, can you name 1 item that had it's price drastically decreased as the result of the Loot Scaling? Remember, stuff like Runes, Materials etc dropped cause of the Exemption List, and stuff like Colossal Scimitar and Ele Sword dropped BECAUSE of solo-farming.

Dark Kal · Apr 10, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

That is incorrect.

Solo farmers do the job of 1 person. 1 solo farming build bearer.

Solo builds are usually meant to use the numbers of the monsters against them or just completely ignore the number of the enemies.
Best farming builds work like that, getting more health and/or energy the more enemies attack you.

It all depends on your perspective. Enemy mobs were designed for full teams so it's 1 player going against a mob designed for 8 players. Regardlessly of how you percieve it, solo farmers have to do more work than a full team for roughly the same amount of loot hence it is not fair and his statement made no sense.

Gli · Apr 10, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Solo farmers do the work of 8 people but only get 1/8 of what they deserve, while normal players have 8 times more assistence and still get the same amount of loot, how exactly is this fair???

Solo farmers still get 8 times as many 'special', lootscaling-exempted drops. That is the reward of solo farming.

Dark Kal · Apr 10, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Solo farmers still get 8 times as many 'special', lootscaling-exempted drops. That is the reward of solo farming.

In reality that doesn't make much of a difference unless you're farming rare materials or green weapons. Neither was it the point.

reetkever · Apr 10, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Solo farmers still get 8 times as many 'special', lootscaling-exempted drops. That is the reward of solo farming.

These drops, however, are of NO use for casual farmers. I couldn't care less about a Glob of Ectoplasm dropping for me, and I'd just merch it for the money. Besides, the chance that these Exempted items rarely drop, and if they drop they are most of the time worth nothing anymore these days. No profit is to be made here except for the really rare items.

Let's not forget that casual farming isn't done with the goal of becoming rich.

CHannum · Apr 10, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Solo farmers still get 8 times as many 'special', lootscaling-exempted drops. That is the reward of solo farming.

...which will fall on deaf ears. There is no amount of common sense that will affect their perception of being kept down by the man.

Solo farm and you get 8 times the amount of anything you might reasonably want at the point you can solo farm effectively. Plus, because the scaling isn't linear, you'll also walk away with about double the gold money and other normal drops. When you're done with selling and merching everything you'll have at least triple what any player who simply played through that same area would have gotten.

Never mind just just how silly claims about doing more work are in the first place. Solo farm builds are quite limited in where they work, but where they work, they generally kill faster than any normal team of even 8 players will manage because they're specifically designed to exploit the contents of a given area, which was, surprise, surprise, implemented assuming a (near) full party possessing a set of team based skills. Anyone that can claim, for example, that a good raptor farm build, which will manage to aggro and kill 30+ enemies in 2 minutes or less while standing still, is more work than trying to hit the same area in a party where they divide aggro and disrupt team functionality is, at best, using troll logic. *If* it were possible, for example, for a normal team of eight to clear the raptor nestling area in even 30 seconds, which is still only half as efficient as a solo farmer relative to reward vs time spent, I'd have more patience for arguments claiming there's a discrepancy in effort versus reward for solo farmers, but that's flat out not the case.

People should be glad they don't do something as simple as move that group of Agorodons *almost* in front of the raptor nest to right in front of it. One change that wouldn't alter normal PvE playing in the slightest would destroy raptor farming in an instant. Heck, after enduring this thread, that's what I'd do if I were Anet:

"In response to overwhelming player dissatisfaction with loot scaling, we are removing it. However, we are also re-evaluating and re-balancing mob placement and skills in areas our player logs demonstrate are easily exploitable by a single character. After this change you can have your 8X of everything IF you can find a single place left you can solo

"

Gli · Apr 10, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

In reality that doesn't make much of a difference unless you're farming rare materials or green weapons. Neither was it the point.

It makes a crapload of difference with regard to rares alone. For example, solo farming a certain number of enemies in 1/3 of the time it takes a party of 8? That's 24 times as many rares/hour as each individual in the party would get. The merchant value of those alone makes farming still worth it. And then there's tomes, dyes, keys/lockpicks.

Also, the exemption list is exactly the point. Items on that list are the intended reward for solo farming. You can't brush aside the rewards you do get and go on to complain you're not rewarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

These drops, however, are of NO use for casual farmers. I couldn't care less about a Glob of Ectoplasm dropping for me, and I'd just merch it for the money.

Casual farmers don't want rares, dyes, keys/lockpicks, etc.? Weirdoes! No wonder they're so poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Besides, the chance that these Exempted items rarely drop, and if they drop they are most of the time worth nothing anymore these days. No profit is to be made here except for the really rare items.

They do drop quite frequently for me when I farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Let's not forget that casual farming isn't done with the goal of becoming rich.

You really need to define that 'casual farming' of yours.