Curse

CHannum · Mar 25, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

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Originally Posted by reetkever

First off, please don't attempt to make this a flame war.

Fine, you *may not* be a crybaby, but you are definitely a liar, that's just plain old fact.

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Also, 250K in 4 months is nothing. At least 100K is needed if you want to equip a character with decent skills, armour and weapons when they leave the starter island in NF/Factions. In Prophecies you need less, but it's also way harder to make cash there.

The 250K figure was just a conservative estimate, it may be more, I don't really know, I don't really care. I've done *everything* I ever wanted to so far, finished all four campaigns at least once, purchased some elite armor, splurged on vigor runes, etc., and I've still got in excess of 80K on reserve right this second and I've never consciously done a thing to make money.

Here's why you ARE a liar and probably are a crybaby (I could have been in a position to call you that 3.9 months ago for the record based on your assinine version of the game): Max non elite armor plus a max weapon and shield (with max inherent mods) cost at the most 15K from vendors and weaponsmiths. You don't even need this equipment for more than the first half of any of the games. If you go with collector gear, you can have max armor and weapons by the end of any of the campaigns for free.

It costs less than 7K for 20 skills in addition to whatever you get for free. Each campaign even gives you 2 signets of capture for free. Since you only get 8 total skills and a max of 1 elite at a time, that's two to four complete builds with all *necessary* equipment for a cost of 6.5K to 21.5K. I guarantee that anybody with any business commenting on this game could complete all four campaigns in normal mode for less than 50 platinum per character, let alone some crazy idea that you need 100K just to leave the newbie areas.

reetkever · Mar 25, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Let's see here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Fine, you *may not* be a crybaby, but you are definitely a liar, that's just plain old fact.

You can call me how you want. I know from myself that I am not lying. I AM having trouble with money, else I wouldn't be posting here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

The 250K figure was just a conservative estimate, it may be more, I don't really know, I don't really care. I've done *everything* I ever wanted to so far, finished all four campaigns at least once, purchased some elite armor, splurged on vigor runes, etc., and I've still got in excess of 80K on reserve right this second and I've never consciously done a thing to make money.

Well good for you. There are some people who have NOT done everything they wanted so far. You are the one that is whining for cash to stay rare. I say you are just an elitist that doesn't want others to get the stuff you get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Here's why you ARE a liar and probably are a crybaby (I could have been in a position to call you that 3.9 months ago for the record based on your assinine version of the game): Max non elite armor plus a max weapon and shield (with max inherent mods) cost at the most 15K from vendors and weaponsmiths. You don't even need this equipment for more than the first half of any of the games. If you go with collector gear, you can have max armor and weapons by the end of any of the campaigns for free.

It costs less than 7K for 20 skills in addition to whatever you get for free. Each campaign even gives you 2 signets of capture for free. Since you only get 8 total skills and a max of 1 elite at a time, that's two to four complete builds with all *necessary* equipment for a cost of 6.5K to 21.5K. I guarantee that anybody with any business commenting on this game could complete all four campaigns in normal mode for less than 50 platinum per character, let alone some crazy idea that you need 100K just to leave the newbie areas.

First off, collector's gear is impossible to get (Thanks to Loot Scaling, remember? -.-).

As for armour, depending on the character and profession I make, I most certainly DO need runes and/or insignia's to play the game. Otherwise I let either myself down, or my team.

Skills: You can beat the game with 20 skills? I surely can't. With all the crazy skill changes, I need to alter my build all the time and switch skills. I lost at least 50K to just that fact. Tomes are useless because I haven't unlocked alot of skills yet, and it sucks to try and buy them.

Weapons: Weaponsmith weapons are beyond my reach. I buy unID' goldies from players to equip at the start. 5K + Materials for a starting player, with the knowledge they have to buy 1,5K armour, too? Yeah right...

And don't forget I need to buy for 25 heroes PER CHARACTER. With 8 characters that makes 200 heroes in total. If each of them takes only 1 Weaponsmith weapon, I have to cough up 1000K just for that.

Sure, I could also buy unID gold weapons for my heroes, but they are often worse and I still have to pay ALOT. Don't tell me that my heroes don't need max damage weapons because they do. If I 'play' this game, I should AT LEAST be able to equip my characters with the cheap max stuff.

As for the people that think that the Lootscaling causes the prices to go down... You obviously never played before the Scaling. The Loot Scaling made prices go UP when it was installed. Hence we got the Exemtion List. Without the Exemption List, every rune would be about 30K each because they never dropped for players cause of Loot Scaling.

And before you ask, the non-farmer BARELY contributes to the prices in the market. In the end, it's the farmer that makes the prices. If alot of runes are farmed, the price will go down. Same goes with ecto's.

As for the inflation. This is a load of BS. Of course, prices are always high when a game is fairly new and in it's best years. Everyone was making Warriors with Absorption Runes, and because the Vigor runes weren't profession-bound, everyone bought this. Oh, and don't forget that Sup Vigor and Absorption had less chance to drop than other runes, and that golden items could contain purple runes.

Inflation isn't possible to survive in a game like Guild Wars, where only more and more items are created from nothing and enter the market at no price. If you wait long enough, everyone will have everything and every item will be worth merchant price. Besides, before the LS, the prices were already lowering. Except of course the rare items, but this is A-Net's fault for giving them the drop rate or nerfing the farming.

Fril Estelin · Mar 25, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

First off, collector's gear is impossible to get (Thanks to Loot Scaling, remember? -.-).

As for armour, depending on the character and profession I make, I most certainly DO need runes and/or insignia's to play the game. Otherwise I let either myself down, or my team.

Skills: You can beat the game with 20 skills? I surely can't. With all the crazy skill changes, I need to alter my build all the time and switch skills. I lost at least 50K to just that fact. Tomes are useless because I haven't unlocked alot of skills yet, and it sucks to try and buy them.

Weapons: Weaponsmith weapons are beyond my reach. I buy unID' goldies from players to equip at the start. 5K + Materials for a starting player, with the knowledge they have to buy 1,5K armour, too? Yeah right...

I don't know how you've played, but on my casual side, this happened "naturally". I.e. by simply selling loot, I got all this, and LS didn't stop me from getting collector's (had to go with only a healer in Heroes Audience for a few seeds). The game provides ample opportunity for all that's necessary, including for the 25 heroes (which mean you went through NF and EotN which themselves give enough loot and money). So, all this without trading with players, just with merchants, collectors, weaponsmith, etc.

(15k armor came a bit after that, and then I adapted and started making a bit more money, but that's only after all this basic stuff)

mr_groovy · Mar 25, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

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Originally Posted by creelie

Mr Groovy, do you have statistical proof that insta-death-scaling exists? Because I am not convinced. And without this "IDS" LS has absolutely zero effect on players in parties.

"Everybody knows" doesn't count as proof. I don't want perceptions; I want numbers. In parties, solo, intervals between each mob death starting at <1 second and increasing to 60 seconds and beyond, repeated enough times enough ways to be statistically significant.

Otherwise, STFU and limit your argument to the real issue everyone is arguing about: LS makes solo farming suck, as was the plan. People who never solo farm are unaffected.

Have a look over Here.
So to return the stfu, GTFO

.

ReZDoGG · Mar 25, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Sorry to say, but Anet is not going to remove lootscaling so people can make easier and quicker gold, just because of the recent thread of bans with gold sellers. They will not make the game easier, but only harder... It would be nice, but I highly doubt anything will change with the lootscaling. There are alot of things that are not included in loot scaling, and can still make money farming those items such as Ectos or Festiv Items. Alot of people made alot of money/profit this past weekend from hardcore farming the Bunnies and Golden Eggs.

CHannum · Mar 25, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

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Originally Posted by reetkever

First off, collector's gear is impossible to get (Thanks to Loot Scaling, remember? -.-).

That must explain how I got all of it I ever wanted before I had enough money to just buy stuff and save time...

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As for armour, depending on the character and profession I make, I most certainly DO need runes and/or insignia's to play the game. Otherwise I let either myself down, or my team.

Lie, plain and simple. The few builds and associated areas that *need* runes are late, late game. Everything else works with or without runes. Besides, the most expensive rune in the game is a superior vigor and is hardly necessary (I've purchased a whole one) for anything except elite builds for elite areas and that is not at issue here. If you are regularly and reliably hitting up elite areas, money is not your problem.

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Skills: You can beat the game with 20 skills? I surely can't. With all the crazy skill changes, I need to alter my build all the time and switch skills. I lost at least 50K to just that fact. Tomes are useless because I haven't unlocked alot of skills yet, and it sucks to try and buy them.

More crying, more lying. You can probably beat the game with a lot less, but that's not even what I said: I said you could beat all four campaigns with less than 50K spent per character. If you can't come up with flexible enough builds that the nearly 50 skills per character that this would net you to get by, you're not trying.

Regardless, whether you can get by on a cheapskate strategem isn't the issue, it's if you actually can't get by comfortably with the amount of money you get normally under LS. I know I've certainly beat all four campaigns without ever once needing to go get more money for skills. Heck, the last time I needed to wait on buying a skill for a reason other than I just didn't have a character with access to that location yet was about a month into playing Prophecies.

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Weapons: Weaponsmith weapons are beyond my reach. I buy unID' goldies from players to equip at the start. 5K + Materials for a starting player, with the knowledge they have to buy 1,5K armour, too? Yeah right...

That would be more lying, more crying, and apparently even dumbass "strategy". I've never bought a single thing from another player other than a mini, you don't need to. Between collectors, BMP, weaponsmiths, and drops, you can get through the game without needing any kind of mad money.

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And don't forget I need to buy for 25 heroes PER CHARACTER. With 8 characters that makes 200 heroes in total. If each of them takes only 1 Weaponsmith weapon, I have to cough up 1000K just for that.

Sigh, you're like arguing with 3 y.o. If you've unlocked all 25 heros for a character, that character played completely through at least NF and EOTN with more than enough decent drops to get by on without ever touching a weaponsmith unless you want. Never mind that 10 of those 25 heros come with max (if not optimal) gear and the BMP for $10 provides an unlimited suppy of perfect gold req 9 max weapons of your choice AND pays you 500G for the "trouble" of getting each one. Yes, fully kitting out those heros with runes will cost you money, but you do at as you play and need that extra oomph, not all at once which is what you want to pretend.

The big issue for you is one of no perspective. You *expect* to have the *best* for as little effort as possible, aka greed and laziness. You don't need the best to play the game, you need good enough. If you have to wait the 1 hour it might take you to earn enough buy another skill playing normally, I think you'll live.

Or maybe we're playing two different games. I'm playing a game that didn't hand me 25 heros and a naked character and threaten to kill my dog if I didn't beat DOA by the end of the next weekend while unlocking everything and having perfectly modded equipment on everybody, you?

Fay Vert · Mar 26, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReZDoGG

There are alot of things that are not included in loot scaling, and can still make money farming those items such as Ectos or Festiv Items. Alot of people made alot of money/profit this past weekend from hardcore farming the Bunnies and Golden Eggs.

But if its okay to make lots of money by farming select areas (raptors, smites etc) then why is it not okay to make money by farming which ever area (or many areas for variety) that takes your fancy?

I can make as much money now as ever, but the gme is really really boring with only the same few places to farm to do it. Before the fun nerf I could farm in dozens of places with dozens of different builds, it never got boring, and I would even mix this with helping guildies and friends out with missions, quests or build experiments. Now all that is gone, I can still make the money but the fun has gone out of the game because of the nerf.

Gli · Mar 26, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

But if its okay to make lots of money by farming select areas (raptors, smites etc) then why is it not okay to make money by farming which ever area (or many areas for variety) that takes your fancy?

I can make as much money now as ever, but the gme is really really boring with only the same few places to farm to do it. Before the fun nerf I could farm in dozens of places with dozens of different builds, it never got boring, and I would even mix this with helping guildies and friends out with missions, quests or build experiments. Now all that is gone, I can still make the money but the fun has gone out of the game because of the nerf.

The only reason that some 'farm runs' are more attractive than others is that they allow for a lot more kills per time. This would be the case with or without lootscaling. So, your argument is meaningless.

Fay Vert · Mar 26, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

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Originally Posted by Gli

The only reason that some 'farm runs' are more attractive than others is that they allow for a lot more kills per time. This would be the case with or without lootscaling. So, your argument is meaningless.

You miss my point. There are still some places where you can make almost as much cash as before the nerf, that being the case, why is it undesirable to alow the variety that there used to be? The hardcore farmers know of all the places that are still good, the casual players or casual farmers don't, so who is the loot nerf hurting now?

Answer: everyone. The hardcore farmers make as much, but its boring now,the casual players can't make money farming where they could before.

Oh wait, I forgot who benefits, the bots, they don't mind how boring it is.

Gli · Mar 26, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Without lootscaling, the places that are still pretty good now, would make you at least 50k per hour just from merchanting. You'd still complain that there's no variety, because for 'real' money you'd have to do 1 or 2 specific runs WITH or WITHOUT lootscaling.

Fay Vert · Mar 26, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

I refer you to my previous comment on the fun of running dozens of builds to farm dozens of locations.

CHannum · Mar 26, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Now all that is gone, I can still make the money but the fun has gone out of the game because of the nerf.

I think is what they call, "Working as intended".

This isn't Harvest Moon, it's Guild Wars, and while there are a lot of meta goals supported within the game system (e.g. vanquishing), farming is *not* one of them. I would wager that farming is seen as something to keep in the game for when someone really does want to race to that next set of armor or nab a few hundred special weekend drops but not something that should be encouraged in the general. You simply can't have a game that sells itself on the "We got rid of the grind" mantra but has an economy fueled by everbody putting in a few hours a week doing repetitive tasks. Instead, they've given us a game that could easily be played for years on what you make just playing it without ever so much as spending ten minutes farming (and the farmers wonder why there's no sense of satisfaction?).

Last weekend is the closest I ever came to farming (hitting up the raptors in normal mode for the easter drops because I wanted to boost my Treasure Hunter for free on my warrior and get some chocolate for my sugar junkie assassin). With great effort I managed to put in enough time to get a stack and change of each - just that much time damn near killed me, I've got no idea why anbody would ever farm in this game LS or not since from where I'm sitting everything else that I got in those ~6 hours of raptor runs that I'll actually make use of I could have easily obtained over a longer period of having fun playing the game.

creelie · Mar 26, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

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Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Have a look over Here.
So to return the stfu, GTFO

.

RTFT, buddy. More hearsay, anecdotes, opinions, impressions, and a few unhelpful screenshots. Not what I'm looking for. Not good enough. I want numbers, BIG numbers.

Anyway, how often does everything die SIMULTANEOUSLY in partied PvE? More often they all die within a few seconds of each other. So even if your tinfoil hat theory does in fact have some merit (of which I have yet to be convinced), it still affects farmers and not full parties.

Gli · Mar 26, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I refer you to my previous comment on the fun of running dozens of builds to farm dozens of locations.

And I refer you to my previous comment that all those dozens of locations would be just as pointless to farm with or without lootscaling.

Without lootscaling, you probably wouldn't be having fun either because people would be making much more money in the hot places than you in your 'fun' places. Just like they are now.

mr_groovy · Mar 26, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by creelie

RTFT, buddy. More hearsay, anecdotes, opinions, impressions, and a few unhelpful screenshots. Not what I'm looking for. Not good enough. I want numbers, BIG numbers.

Anyway, how often does everything die SIMULTANEOUSLY in partied PvE? More often they all die within a few seconds of each other. So even if your tinfoil hat theory does in fact have some merit (of which I have yet to be convinced), it still affects farmers and not full parties.

Well if that's the deal Proof me wrong. Come with your statistics to deny it.

I do experience IDS, may it be from farming, or full party mission, vanquish etc.
I don't have to convince you it's there because I know from personal experience.
And I know the difference because I played pre LS, and after. This goes for 8/8 parties, and farming trips.

So with all this big talk of how it doesn't exist, you proof me wrong

.

Fay Vert · Mar 26, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I think is what they call, "Working as intended".

This isn't Harvest Moon, it's Guild Wars, and while there are a lot of meta goals supported within the game system (e.g. vanquishing), farming is *not* one of them. I would wager that farming is seen as something to keep in the game for when someone really does want to race to that next set of armor or nab a few hundred special weekend drops but not something that should be encouraged in the general. You simply can't have a game that sells itself on the "We got rid of the grind" mantra but has an economy fueled by everbody putting in a few hours a week doing repetitive tasks. Instead, they've given us a game that could easily be played for years on what you make just playing it without ever so much as spending ten minutes farming (and the farmers wonder why there's no sense of satisfaction?).

Last weekend is the closest I ever came to farming (hitting up the raptors in normal mode for the easter drops because I wanted to boost my Treasure Hunter for free on my warrior and get some chocolate for my sugar junkie assassin). With great effort I managed to put in enough time to get a stack and change of each - just that much time damn near killed me, I've got no idea why anbody would ever farm in this game LS or not since from where I'm sitting everything else that I got in those ~6 hours of raptor runs that I'll actually make use of I could have easily obtained over a longer period of having fun playing the game.

You should take that little theory of yours up with Gaile

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Originally Posted by Gaile

We want players who enjoy solo farming to have a wide variety of things that they can enjoy farming.

While you are at it ask her what happened to that grindless game you bought

mr_groovy · Mar 26, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

And I refer you to my previous comment that all those dozens of locations would be just as pointless to farm with or without lootscaling.

Without lootscaling, you probably wouldn't be having fun either because people would be making much more money in the hot places than you in your 'fun' places. Just like they are now.

Who cares about how much other people make? Casual players don't care about the e-peen rarities. They care about skills, fancy-armor + titles.

Gli · Mar 26, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Who cares about how much other people make? Casual players don't care about the e-peen rarities. They care about skills, fancy-armor + titles.

Fay Vert cares, and that's who I was talking to.

DivineEnvoy · Mar 26, 2008, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Who cares about how much other people make? Casual players don't care about the e-peen rarities. They care about skills, fancy-armor + titles.

What's the difference between e-peen rarities and fancy armors, and titles?

Fay Vert · Mar 26, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

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Originally Posted by Gli

Fay Vert cares, and that's who I was talking to.

No, I care not a jot about people who earn 100 times what I do, you are mistaken there. I care about how much fun I have as I play the game in the way I like to play. Given that I have completed every quest, mission, dungeon, storyline multiple times, that wasy does not include "playing the game normally" any more. I also care about the fact that a hell of a lot of people I used to play with have quit the game for good because of this nerf.

When they added the loot nerf,t hey sucked a hell of a lot of fun and replay value out of the game. THAT is why I hate it, it was counter productive, it worsened the whole game, its bad desigh, intentionally nerfing a very popular form of gameplay. And for what? Some whacked out notion of what is a good economy? lol, how obsurd can you get?

They changed the economy for sure, but is it any better? Is it any worse? Of course it isn't, its just different, so what was the point? To make players more casual and reduce the load (ie costs) on the servers?