Curse

Surena · Apr 19, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

So what you're saying is, instead, they want to take the same 8 bars and shit all over every single mob without having to think? Because, it's either 1 or the other.

You're mixing casuals with the problematic groups (a and b). While the former doesn't dedicate much time and energy and is still open to change his bar (my guild is full of casuals), it's the latter that absolutey hates changing skills and an AI that is not exploitable.

Quote:

Using your brain to build for the job at hand takes 5 minutes. If you don't want to change your bars for different situations, stick ursan on it and stop complaining.

First thing: You only quote one part of my posting and ignore the context. I hate that.

What I am saying (again) is:

Future PvE (GW2 and beyond) should have a "seamingless" design offering casual play (what many want) and hardcore play (what we want) while excluding the problematic playstyles (obsidiot tanks, 55ing, Ursan) without having to rely on special zones only.

An open world that is fully explorable or accessibly only by the ones that are good and brave enough to take the challenge. It's getting RPGish now but I hope you get what I am trying to say.

Kusandaa · Apr 19, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

So you vote for removing everything from PvE saying "just use Ursan" for your precious PvP.

Lol, there's like 2 mindsets that I see regarding ursan, and both contradict each other... and I bet some people think both.

1. Ursan is overpowered, it sucks. Remove it from the game.
2. Ursan is overporered, use it instead of reg skills.

Well, I SERIOUSLY doubt I'm the only one who doesn't use it THAT much. I DO use UB - usually FoW/DoA - but I also like playing with regular builds. In fact, when I'm not in FoW/DoA I generally refuse to run UB (I say "generally" because I did use it other places, depends of my mood... and usually I'd rather run a good ol' SS build).

IMHO, UB does NOT justify the nerf of skills in PvE. So because one skill works well means the nerf of others to support the use of it? Hey hey, wait. Some others ALSO enjoy non-UB builds >_>. I note that in general, I don't mind skill change and I adjust. But sometimes, it's kinda too far (the para changes from last update).

I like "tactics" (because let's face it, some people will say that there's no tactics needed in PvE). I like having to adjust. For the other times, I have UB and cookie-cutter - when I want mindless, tactic-less play, and literally plowing through mobs.

Surena · Apr 19, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Sure. The vast majority of game content is level 20, endgame PvE areas. These are the kind of thing that would be made of balanced enemy groups. The lower-level areas would, ideally, act as a sort of preparation stage for that - groups that are less varied, or have less effective setups, and so on, so as not to make the learning curve too steep.

A tutorial that teaches you the basic needs for the game and then let's you out into an open world that doesn't deny you exploration or reward unless you're not good enough. I absolute hate the seperation of high-end content in form of special outposts. My modded Oblivion is a good example. A beginner could theoretically go everywhere (as the hardcore player) but is much more doomed to fail than those that are better prepared and setup.

Quote:

Although you seem to take from my post that players would have to build against foes constantly in order to be effective, but this isn't really what I meant. If the skills were balanced appropriately, a single balanced build setup would be able to win the game because it would be able to deal with everything. You wouldn't need to spec specifically against a type of enemy because no area would have a specific type of enemy - so a GvG-esque balanced build would be able to proceed through everything. You might have to use different tactics (target prioritization and such), and while speccing against an area specifically might make you more effective, changing your build constantly wouldn't be definitely necessary.

This would encourage solid build design and open far more avenues for successful build variation in PvE, while at the same time making a more cohesive game overall between PvE and PvP.

No, I actually understood you.

Shuuda · Apr 19, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Integrating PvP and PvE just will not work

It could have worked, what stood in the way were people that cannot adapt to change, nothing more.

Fril Estelin · Apr 19, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

It's a nice thought but what skill on that list is suddenly making PvE impossible?

Try to reciprocate: why would this skill update reversal make PvP impossible? "You" don't have so much fun if the game is not balanced "your" way, so why don't "you" understand that a PvE player doesn't have the same fun if some skills change every 2-3 weeks? I can already hear the word "adapt" (mention UB is utter non-sense), but then why shall "we" be forced to adapt? Why shall PvE players live by the speed of change required by PvP players? And the most interesting question: why can't both player styles simply accept a common ground, a middle position where each playstyle is alternatively represented/actioned?

This thread started from the very own OP with a PvP/PvE divide and guess how it's going to end... Anet didn't being this on "us" (though they could have made things in a better way), "we" did. (but then, I may be a bit too depressed after watching the movie "Untraceable" ...) Each of us is pulling the blanket to his side and it's going to end as a "pull the cord" game which creates a very nasty ambiance in the game (unfortunately, not only on fansites).

Chthon · Apr 19, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I think my main point was that this update isn't about balance at all, but something else more sad that is disguised as a balance update.

1. Don't be oblique. Come right out and say it: You think a-net is giving up on GW1 and this is the end of balance updates.

2. You may be right.

3. As a PvE player, that doesn't bother me too much. For PvE players, balance updates usually mean nothing but aggravation and sadness that yet another one of our builds has been ruined for a reason that we don't view as a good reason. Now, I do want to see a small handful of longstanding problems (the SR timer is #1 on the list) fixed before balance updates stop, but, once that happens, I'll be perfectly happy with static game rules.

Quote:

The problem is, PvE makes very few sacrifices.

Yeah... when you say things like that, I makes me think you might be on crack. If you really think PvE hasn't had to make a lot of sacrifices for the sake of PvP balance, I have a necromancer who really wants to talk to you.

---

@ Avarre: I absolutely agree with you on what PvE should have been. No stat pumping, no environmental effects, just 8-ish-man teams of monsters that progress from bad team builds to mediocre team builds as the game progresses, with good team builds off in the "elite" areas. Not that I think we'll ever see it in GW1 at this point...

Spike · Apr 19, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

It could have worked, what stood in the way were people that cannot adapt to change, nothing more.

Yup and thier called PVPERS.

t00115577 · Apr 19, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I cant see why they dont just remove ursan and con sets, everyone managed just fine before them. Just put their hands up and say, 'We never realised how powerful UB was, it has now been removed from the game, we apologise for all the upset it caused' Hell its their game after all!! They can do whatever the they want.

I wont say that i dont use UB, i do, but only because its so damn good! If there was ANY build that was even close to its power, id gladly use it. But when i try a HM mission or something 5 times as a BHA epidemic or something and its not working i feel like, screw this, im using UB, and its an easy masters.

The balance of PVP / PVE is terrible imo, both types of play are different, and you cannot really balance the same skills to do both.

Just my 2 cents

Xx_Sorin_xX · Apr 19, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

It's a nice thought but what skill on that list is suddenly making PvE impossible?

QFT. those changes meant hardly anything for PvE.

that being said, people are jumping to the most imaginative conclusions about this. take a couple of breaths and see what is going to happen.

I see a lot of accusations from the PvP community saying that why should skill balance matter in PvE, because all they ever play is Ursan and all they use is their overpowered PvE skills and consumables. That it doesn't matter what skills you bring because it's all C + space anyway. That every PvE player just wants an easy way to kill with no actual thought in mind, afterall they're only playing the computer. What other point would there be?

Then I see a lot of the PvE community saying that PvP crowd has always whined or that they're never happy with a skill update. That they aren't the majority of the players, so anet shouldn't focus on them as much. Or that they only want certain skills and complain that PvP has never gone in the right direction. Just give them those few skill balances they want and shove them to the corner.

The fact is, the majority of PvP players dont understand, nor care to, the average PvE player and the things that the average PvE player want. And the fact is, the majority of PvE players dont understand, nor care to, the average PvP player and the things they want. Stop pretending like most of you do, because this thread proves you don't. It shows all of the overgeneralized assumptions that one makes about the other, with no real understanding of what they are saying. Give it a rest.

Tyla · Apr 19, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Yup and thier called PVPERS.

And what change is that which they aren't adapting to?
PvP'ers often prefer a game called "skill wars", not "build wars", and things get stagnant. Change is good.

And before you say anything, MY Guild Wars box says something along the lines of Skill > Time. (Fight in a world where skill decides victory)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Try to reciprocate: why would this skill update reversal make PvP impossible? "You" don't have so much fun if the game is not balanced "your" way, so why don't "you" understand that a PvE player doesn't have the same fun if some skills change every 2-3 weeks? I can already hear the word "adapt" (mention UB is utter non-sense), but then why shall "we" be forced to adapt? Why shall PvE players live by the speed of change required by PvP players? And the most interesting question: why can't both player styles simply accept a common ground, a middle position where each playstyle is alternatively represented/actioned?

Online games have the tendancy to change. You're only buying the privelige to play, and the part of the game that was the actually supposed to be the main focus, was really PvP.
Things like Splinter Weapon, and Ancestors' Rage, were already extremely powerful, and these were in all reality quite small changes for the PvE side.

These changes, directed at PvP were really to keep things balanced and not too powerful.
AR and SW are also still quite powerful.

Magikarp · Apr 19, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

rolling pvp conscious only balances every month for MaTs is fantastic for the general community...

/sarcasm

Wyat Hawke · Apr 19, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Yup and thier called PVPERS.

Care to elaborate a little bit? What changes haven't they adapted to?

Shuuda · Apr 19, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Yup and thier called PVPERS.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

PvPers are the ones who cannot accept things not changing, especially during a stagnant and degenerate Meta.

Lay off the crack.

Master Knightfall · Apr 19, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

What!? Another Ursans Blessing Nerf Thread? haha They multiply. And the speculators flock to it like metal to a magnet. GW's is gonna die, GW2 isn't going to get any sales. LMFAO How many times have we seen these posts? Over 2 years worth I know of. Yet, sales of GW keep increasing 5 mil last I read. Some people need to stop thinking they are some kind of demi-gods and everything they say will happen to GW will happen lol you don't control sales or other peoples minds just your simpleton own. <grin>

Turtle222 · Apr 19, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

It's ANET's game to do with as they see fit, not ours. We have the option to play the game as it is presented to us and the option not to play if we are not happy. If ANET makes choices that ultimately drive people away, they will realize they made some wrong decisions. I for one just really enjoy the game and adjust to whatever they may present to us.

good post, well said.

For goodness sake just be happy they are updating the game every bloody thursday. Trust me, if EA was in control of GW, this whole fanbase would be empty by now.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 19, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

First thing: You only quote one part of my posting and ignore the context. I hate that.

Oh, i read the rest, just wanted to pick up on one point. The rest of your post is irrelevant, and didn't differ from your initial point. And if it did, you'd be contradicting yourself.

Basically, what you said is that casual players don't want to put together different bars for different mobs. Which equates to laziness. End of.

Quote:

but I hope you get what I am trying to say.

With that post - no, not really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

For goodness sake just be happy they are updating the game every bloody thursday. Trust me, if EA was in control of GW, this whole fanbase would be empty by now.

With what they've done to the game since prophecies (from a PvP point of view) - it would've probably been better off had they left it alone altogether.

Racthoh · Apr 19, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Try to reciprocate: why would this skill update reversal make PvP impossible? "You" don't have so much fun if the game is not balanced "your" way, so why don't "you" understand that a PvE player doesn't have the same fun if some skills change every 2-3 weeks? I can already hear the word "adapt" (mention UB is utter non-sense), but then why shall "we" be forced to adapt? Why shall PvE players live by the speed of change required by PvP players? And the most interesting question: why can't both player styles simply accept a common ground, a middle position where each playstyle is alternatively represented/actioned?

PvE is all about adapting and building against areas, it's the best way to win any situation. I can have a build that works flawlessly in one area, and yet I'll get steamrolled in another because I didn't bring the appropriate tools. Someone who does not have the foresight to build against a zone is a bad player because they refuse to adapt, the same kind of person who whines about skill updates because they suddenly have to... adapt! If PvE had any sort of randomization I could sympathize with some of the complaints given by my fellow PvErs, but I can't.

This is what makes Ursan so good as well because it does work everywhere. There is no need to make any changes.

You can't adapt in PvP in that same sense because you're placed in a different environment every single time.

Tyla · Apr 19, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

You can't adapt in PvP in that same sense because you're placed in a different environment every single time.

And that's exactly why you need your overall build versatility to shine.
And it's also why build wars is bad, because you need to have common counters to take out common things such as melee, casters ect. and be able to tackle situations such as splits.
Build wars also tightens bar space and disallows versatility, which makes the game extremely rock-paper-scissors-ey.

Killed u man · Apr 19, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

PvE and PvE should have been split since beginning

This last message was in fact Anet saying: "Fu PvP community"

PvP is harder than PvE, in fact PvE can be laid down as a "routine", simply becauze you're doing the same thing over and over again

PvE is easy, was easy and always will be easy, no matter what skills they touch/not touch

PvP IS more important than PvE, look at initial campaign (Proph) as well as the fact that Charr can't cry about skill nerfs

Guild Wars is skill-bar based, in the end it will ALWAYS come down to Build Wars (Dshot > Casters, Anti-Melee > Dshot, bla bla bla)

Everything in this thread has been said already over the course of the past few years, but it always comes down to this:

PvE <-> PvP

No point in arguing, it's a Yes/No coversation with no right or wrong.

credit · Apr 19, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

PvE doesn't need balance, anet fails once again.