Curse

Fril Estelin · Jan 03, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If they're saying something negative and hurtful, it's hard not to be affected or annoyed.

This is so subjective. I would be affected, but I would very quickly disregard what they said, unless it's some very harsh language. Some people said on this forum "get over this, this is the internet".

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Dunno. I personally don't know a whole lot of people on any of my servers that've had this kind of "elitist asshole" harassment.

This is quite surprising. I'm not doubting your words one second, but I'd like to know if this is really a phenomenon specific to GW and that does not plague WoW. May be Blizzard is taking action against theses asses?

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There are too many sub communities within both of the games that it's too broad to compare.

That's the old problem of sociology. Communities are never "united" as we present them. But it's not a problem if you can focus your question. Nevertheless, there may not be an easy answer to that as MMORPGs don't release that kind of information and game forums are somewhat biaised (most people play the game and don't spend their time talking about it on forums).

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Could you be a little more specific?

About what exactly? The sentence between brackets basically meant that this discussion is enlightening, even to me that will never play WoW, and this is a good thing. (or symmetrically, WoW players are missing on something)

Bryant Again · Jan 03, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

This is so subjective. I would be affected, but I would very quickly disregard what they said, unless it's some very harsh language. Some people said on this forum "get over this, this is the internet".

Disregardable, sure. But I still will always remain in the International districts. Words can hurt, especially when I get called a fag (which was frequent). That's really hitting a little close to home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

This is quite surprising. I'm not doubting your words one second, but I'd like to know if this is really a phenomenon specific to GW and that does not plague WoW. May be Blizzard is taking action against theses asses?

They have had an in-depth report system for awhile now, but I'm not entirely sure how much of an impact that's had.

I do know of a few people that have had some subpar experiences. I'm saying that I have not. I'm also saying that I've had a very terrible experience with the game community in Guild Wars. Perhaps it could be the PvP-PvE divide?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

That's the old problem of sociology. Communities are never "united" as we present them. But it's not a problem if you can focus your question. Nevertheless, there may not be an easy answer to that as MMORPGs don't release that kind of information and game forums are somewhat biaised

Then if I may ask, how do you consider the Guild Wars community? Maybe we can get started with half of this comparison and so I have an idea of where we're headed.

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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

(most people play the game and don't spend their time talking about it on forums).

I don't remember exactly, but it was either 1% or less than that visit the WoW forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j15x

Good overall post. I was a top hunter on Onyxia and then Korgath (all the way to Illidan, but during the summer, with some of the top guilds in the game.) Full T5 2/6 T6, archimonde bow never dropped for me, and we never downed illidan before we broke up.

Hah, Onyxia's awesome. But how is it nowadays? Seems like it may've attracted a lot of idiots due to the Gilgamesh scandel.

j15x · Jan 03, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

hahaha what a small world... Merciless broke up before that whole deal with that real disgrace of a woman, I never got involved with that drama although she loved to involve herself with us.

After we (Merciless) broke up, the server fell apart, there was no more progression and that's when that whole gilgamesh deal came out. I played with Overrated on Korgath for several months before I quit the game altogether. I wish I knew how onyxia was doing.

Mordakai · Jan 03, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

... and I'm lost.

I guess that's the problem with having separate Realms?

Balan Makki · Jan 03, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In terms of reward, I guess I meant in the term of item drops. Rare weapons don't have much of an appeal in Guild Wars. Shiro's sword - the same sword wielded by Shiro himself! - has no more damage than your normal crafted weapon.

Make no mistake: If there are rare and powerful weapons to be found, a lot of people are gonna explore them.

What we do know so far is as follows:

Level Cap and Balancing - There could be the possibility of having an unlimited level cap and a flattened power curve (meaning a lvl 50 character will be stronger than a level 10 character, but a lvl 100 character would be marginally stronger than a lvl 50 character.) This isn't a problem because A. Your abilities, stats, etc. would be balanced to a cap if you wish to PvP and B. Characters that are below your level will be buffed accordingly to match your level.

For example: You're level 74, your friend is level 14. He will be buffed up in a sense to be as strong as a level 74..

Yes, it's part of the Game's Illusion to make you think you are more powerful as you journey through content.

At level 10, your sword and armor are just as powerful as they need to be for the content you are enjoying. At level 110 you're in the same boat. Has anything really changed, your still enjoying content, correct? As you push forward through linear content, vertical, stat building content, to reach higher levels, higher access, only limited by level/Tier stat boosting gear, you feel yourself getting more powerful, correct? All the while having challenging fun. How is that power represented? Numbers? Stats? Unlocking your next stage in the journey through the game? What is so Important about those Numbers??

It's an MMO progress meter, they represent your accomplishments for your character, correct? These numbers, these ever growing stats.

Would a Sword or Item without stats, but that allowed you to kill/fight an End Boss so you could progress to the next area in the game, be any less Valued, sought after, or "explored for"? Especially if that Magical weapon had no stats? Could you consider these Non Stat weapon any less valuable, than all that stat gear you grind for in WoW? Why is it that Levels/Stats are so very important if you can do the exact same thing without them (smelly ole shoe again, sorry).

And then as Mordakia, and myself have pointed out over and over, you have completely rendered all previous content useless as the stats have pushed you far beyond any challenge you could have enjoyed upon returning there.

Do the Orcs and Trolls in Tolkien's stories gain stats as you near the book's end? Of course the battles pitch higher, but none of the questers ever gain fancy stats to get to it. Once the sword Anduril was gained, Aragorn didn't look any more Buffed then he did in the begining. The sword was symbolic to the power of his bloodline, but nope, no stats there either. If he, Aragorn, were to go back and fight the orcs earlier in his journey, would they be any less difficult? Even with the Sword?

For me, it seems you are just used to something that was created so you'd feel accomplished, represented simply by numbers, and a bit of virtual art.

WoWs entire game, all of its raiding, all of its crafting, all resists, talents, achievement; everything could have been represented Visually without a single stat number anywhere. Had Blizzard done this, but still had every dungeon, piece of gear, quest, environment, all the challenges and grinds; everything the same but no Stats. Would it have really mattered? Would it have been that different? Instead of seeing your fireball crit for 3k you see your enemy engulfed in a torrent of scorching flame on crit, which is better??

You see where I'm going with this? I hope?

Do numbers really matter?? If you'd never played an MMO with numbers, would you be missing them now??

To me it I can only represent it as a Smelly Ole Shoe, and a rather tired and overdone way to handle an MMO. WoW has done it flawlessly.

Loved WoW for what it was, but it really is time to move on, don't you think. Especially for the next butch of games coming out? WoW still has a few years left to go, but I'd really be surprised if the next gen MMOs stick to such a dated game mechanic as Stats and Levels. Especially those that consider PvP a top priority.

If PvP and PvE are completely and absolutely separate in GW2, even including Skills, and especially The Mists, then they certainly could have an endless level cap, and it would make little difference. Those who love that style could spend their time farming stats, those who don't care for it could PvP. But to negate all previous content by having levels, seems rather backwards for Arena Net. And the potential of having World Wide PvP, even beyond the Mists.. call me crazy, but it just seems so obvious.

If they anounce a PvP server for GW2 I'll do a backflip off my roof.

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

It's an MMO progress meter, they represent your accomplishments for your character, correct? These numbers, these ever growing stats.

It's not an MMO progress meter, it's an RPG progress meter.

There was a pretty cool thread awhile ago in the Bethesda forums regarding Oblivion and how content is always balanced around your level. This means that there aren't any areas that are "too high" for your current level and everything is as strong as you are.

Anyways, the thread was actually a poll. In it, it asked: "Would you still enjoy Oblivion if you stayed at level 1, with all skill levels locked?" After a few months, the numbers were (as I recall) 12% yes, 88% no.

So why is this? It's still the same game, same dungeons, same quest, just all at level 1. Why didn't people want this?

The main reason: People like to get bigger. They like to grow, get stronger, look cooler, have more abilities, do more tricks, etc. They like bigger and stronger swords, tougher armor, nastier and more powerful spells, and the list goes on and on.

It's essentially why people play RPGs, and a big reason WoW is so popular. Outdated? Yes, but are we still enjoying it? Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

And then as Mordakia, and myself have pointed out over and over, you have completely rendered all previous content useless as the stats have pushed you far beyond any challenge you could have enjoyed upon returning there.

Previous raids, instances, etc. are just stages in the game. When I get the right amount of gear then I can progress onto the next stage - which is something I want to do. And you *can* go back to older raids and instances, it's just not easy.

I do, however, love helping out our young-bloods in Kara. I love that raid...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

But to negate all previous content by having levels, seems rather backwards for Arena Net. And the potential of having World Wide PvP, even beyond the Mists.. call me crazy, but it just seems so obvious.

What ANet has stated is that there will be something like a PvE level cap and a PvP level cap. In PvE you may have leveled up to level 2195608236, and the PvP cap may be 30. When you take your level 2195608236 into a PvP area, your attributes are equivalent to that of level 30. This is just an example, of course.

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Originally Posted by Aerian_Skybane

My major point Bryant is (I well assume some people have come across elitism in GW) that it is not avoidable in WoW. GW is an instanced game, if you want to avoid the elitist bullcrap, do what the game was meant to do and play it!

Okay now I see what you're saying, and that is a good point.

Balan Makki · Jan 04, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Anyways, the thread was actually a poll. In it, it asked: "Would you still enjoy Oblivion if you stayed at level 1, with all skill levels locked?" After a few months, the numbers were (as I recall) 12% yes, 88% no.

Hypothetical. What if Oblivion had no levels, from the beginning; Oblivion players were used to a different method of progress. You can't honestly say they'd poll the same. To the contrary, they'd poll completely opposite. Being that levels are what they're used to, then I can see why your poll states the obvious.

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The main reason: People like to get bigger. They like to grow, get stronger, look cooler, have more abilities, do more tricks, etc. They like bigger and stronger swords, tougher armor, nastier and more powerful spells, and the list goes on and on.

Do you really need the numbers to do this, to get this "Feeling" of bigger, stronger, cooler, more abilities, do more tricks. Couldn't you get this sense of Power/advancement just as well if not better graphically? Without numbers? Be honest now

Think about it, do numbers matter? Do bigger stronger swords need a viewable stat to preform better? Rather than a sword that preforms maybe better than your last sword, maybe differently than your last sword, regardless of stats. Do you need to have stats "Numbers" to feel Powerful, advanced, bigger, stronger, tougher??

If your answer is yes. Then can you personally think of an alternate form of advancement that would be just as gratifying as numbers, or even more gratifying? Is it even possible for the RPG MMO?

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Hypothetical. What if Oblivion had no levels, from the beginning; Oblivion players were used to a different method of progress. You can't honestly say they'd poll the same.

Of course the poll wouldn't be the same because the game wouldn't be the same.

But that's not the point of the poll in the first place. There would be no progress *at all*, be it "graphically" or what not. Everything would be just the same as if you were level 1 in Oblivion. You'd find the same weapons as you would in Oblivion level 1, same monsters, rewards, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

[B]Couldn't you get this sense of Power/advancement just as well if not better graphically? Without numbers?[/B

You could do it with numbers in terms of levels, attributes and stats. You can do it without numbers just in the form of powerful weapons and whatnot. Or you can do it with both, which is what's most frequently used, and usually results in something deeper than either of the two alone.

Balan Makki · Jan 04, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But that's not the point of the poll in the first place. There would be no progress *at all*, be it "graphically" or what not. Everything would be just the same as if you were level 1 in Oblivion. You'd find the same weapons as you would in Oblivion level 1, same monsters, rewards, etc.

Why wouldn't there be progress if there was another means of advancement, sans numbers? Why woundn't there be progress If there were no visible stats? It seems to be a very good point--wouldn't the poll results been completely opposite? Hypothetically speaking?

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You could do it with numbers in terms of levels, attributes and stats. You can do it without numbers just in the form of powerful weapons and whatnot. Or you can do it with both, which is what's most frequently used, and usually results in something deeper than either of the two alone.

You're saying numbers, stats, etc make it deeper, than say, variable graphics effects, that would show greater spell effects the more powerful you attacks were, or more wound textures, blood splater on the enemies armor the harder you hit with a weapon.

Your saying without numbers it would be less Deep? And that there are Completely Zero alternatives to providing this depth without numbers?? Even if you could design an RPG MMO with all the modern features, without numbers/stats It would not be as Deep? regardless what Developers tried?

Cacheelma · Jan 04, 2008, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerian_Skybane

Mordakai, the extent to which people "flaunt" their "gear" in GW is insignificant compared to what I have been subject to in WoW. I am not bashing it, but WoW is a game where items are the goal. Its just different than Guild Wars. I started getting sick of the game after doing four (kill X baddies and return me Y pelts of X baddie) quests in three hours time, then getting back, and someone consistently make fun of my noob armor.

At level 10.

And they are 60....

And then they follow me around and ruin the game for me. Consistently saying I am too noob for a noob area.

You're level 10. Why would you even CARE about what high level players are wearing? You just met a bad player who you should've /ignore instead of letting him get to you (for no good reasons). And believe it or not, this kind of thing can also happen A LOT EASIER in GW. 1.5k armor vs. 15k armor anyone? And since you can wear 15k armor even before lv20, you being low level won't be an excuse in GW.

Anarkii · Jan 04, 2008, 04:54 AM // 04:54

To expand a bit on the community aspect, GMs are responsible to a large extent to keep the community "clean" and happy. See a botter/gold farmer? Report him, and if there's sufficient evidence, you can bet that he'll be banned. Players consistently spamming or swearing? Report, and he'll get suspended. Have issues with players griefing you while you're request? Report him. Have issues with bosses despawning or items wrongly looted by someone? The GM can fix that.

Also, the community on a WoW Server evolves gradually. After playing for 2.5 years on Silvermoon, I know a lot of the regulars and they know me. I meet people while questing/farming, talk to them and that is how the community evolves. If the only meeting point of a community is outposts(like GW), where chat mostly consists of trade or immature talk, there's no proper evolution of a community.

The WoW community has often been maligned because of the official forums, but if you want to see the reverse, goto the Elitist Jerks website. Imagine thousands of people making posts as constructive as, say Ensign on this forum coupled with VERY strict moderation and you'll smile at the quality available.

arcanemacabre · Jan 04, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Your saying without numbers it would be less Deep? And that there are Completely Zero alternatives to providing this depth without numbers?? Even if you could design an RPG MMO with all the modern features, without numbers/stats It would not be as Deep? regardless what Developers tried?

This is exactly how I envision GW2. No levels, but advancement in the form of cosmetics and visual effects. If there are levels, they could simply be like a title, something to show you've accomplished X, with no advantages tied to it. Perhaps each level (if there are levels) could unlock different visual effects on skills, animations with attacks and emotes, etc. Perhaps even unlocking access to certain dungeons and "high-end content," as well as armor and weapon skins. Everything entirely cosmetic; no in-game advantage what-so-ever.

-Makai- · Jan 04, 2008, 05:42 AM // 05:42

One day, a buddy of mine tried to get me to play WoW. I'm no stranger to the whole MMO thing (pre-AOS Ultima Online is an experience, I believe, that can never be replicated unless time is cyclical) or the Warcraft Universe, so I gave it a shot.

I tried out the demo, realized the mundaneness of it and swiftly uninstalled it. I couldn't understand why so many people loved the game...I quickly went back to Dark Age of Camelot where I could choose from dozens of genuinely unique classes and races instead of "Mage" or "Troll".

Then, out of nowhere, the WoW influx started and surrounded my very existence. Nearly everyone around me talked about it nonstop. Gamestop became a zone of pure discontentment and the Johnny Football kids started calling themselves "WoW Nerds".

After hearing a gaggle of sorority girls on the bus talking about "drops" and "farming"--buzz words, which, years ago they would have vapidly pondered at and swiftly scoffed--, my hatred for the game was permanently etched in stone. I'll never have any feeling short of pure malice for the game because it made MMOs "hip".

Before GW came out, I discounted it as cheap and unoriginal. While it may not be as unique as some games--Morrowind, for example, which I believe may be the greatest PC game of all time--I feel like it has a lot of "old school nerd" quality to it. And, unlike WoW, it doesn't need to glitz itself up to seem like the greatest invention since sliced bread. Guild Wars may not be endorsed by Mister T., but the product stands by itself as a very good game.

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Why woundn't there be progress If there were no visible stats? It seems to be a very good point--wouldn't the poll results been completely opposite? Hypothetically speaking?

The poll did not ask "would you play Oblivion through another non-numerical means of advancement," it asked "would you play Oblivion with no advancement at all." No numerical level ups, no graphical level ups, no advancement of any sort whatsoever. The polls would be different because the question would be entirely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

You're saying numbers, stats, etc make it deeper, than say, variable graphics effects, that would show greater spell effects the more powerful you attacks were, or more wound textures, blood splater on the enemies armor the harder you hit with a weapon.

Actually I'm not saying that at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Or you can do it with both, which is what's most frequently used, and *usually results in something deeper than either of the two alone.

*I probably should've said "always" here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Your saying without numbers it would be less Deep? And that there are Completely Zero alternatives to providing this depth without numbers?? Even if you could design an RPG MMO with all the modern features, without numbers/stats It would not be as Deep? regardless what Developers tried?

Not as deep with a stat or attribute system. The most advanced and well done graphical advancement system can and will always be more complex with added numerical values. Can it still be advanced without them? Of course. Can it be as advanced compared to itself with values? No.

Can it be as fun? If the company can pull it off, sure, but why risk that when people are content with levels?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

This is exactly how I envision GW2. No levels, but advancement in the form of cosmetics and visual effects. If there are levels, they could simply be like a title, something to show you've accomplished X, with no advantages tied to it. Perhaps each level (if there are levels) could unlock different visual effects on skills, animations with attacks and emotes, etc. Perhaps even unlocking access to certain dungeons and "high-end content," as well as armor and weapon skins. Everything entirely cosmetic; no in-game advantage what-so-ever.

They have stated that higher levels mean you become more powerful, but the power-curve is flattened. Here's a quick 23sec image done in paint to show what that means:

Redfeather1975 · Jan 04, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Mordakai mentioned the Everquest AAs.
I remember in the last big expansion I played in EQ2, they didn't raise the level cap, but instead included a second AA tree.
I think, as Mordakai said, it was because the game was getting bloated and less newbie friendly.
IMO, AAs didn't help the situation. They were still character based and if a new character wanted to play the game they still had to trudge through old, dated content for a long time just to see the new mechanics.

I quit EQ2, because I got bored of my character and didn't have the stomach to start a new one. Starting a new character is close to starting from scratch as nothing I achieved with my main character applies to my account and can be used on new characters.

It's why I like GW a lot more than EQ2 and WoW. Once I had played through the game with a Me/Mo I had all kinds of Mesmer and Monk skills unlocked and could start a new character with a lot more options. It was nice incentive motivation to explore all the classes. I wish EQ2 and WoW somehow could do that too. I'd probably still be playing them then.

Angel Puriel · Jan 04, 2008, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I'm not going to read through all these pages but I have read the first 2...

Basically, WoW = pay to grind. And GW is pay once, play for a few months if you're hardcore and maybe years if you're casual.

Oh, and Kanaxai's Axe is definitely not worth 30k, lol. When was the last time the OP played GW? And where's the mention of Slaver's Exile? Fun, challenging dungeon series but is plagued by cookie-cutter PUGs that do not invite many professions not named Warrior, Monk, Ranger, Elementalist, and Necro (sometimes).

Edit: The OP also forgot to mention the problem of RMTs (real money traders) ie. gold farmers in WoW...

Now the WoW has been discussed to death in comparison to GW, someone make a new thread discussing and comparing Final Fantasy XI with GW! Now THAT'S a true, hardcore, addicting, and fun MMO!

Balan Makki · Jan 04, 2008, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The poll did not ask "would you play Oblivion through another non-numerical means of advancement," it asked "would you play Oblivion with no advancement at all." No numerical level ups, no graphical level ups, no advancement of any sort whatsoever. The polls would be different because the question would be entirely different.

My point was Hypothetical. Not the opposite of levels(the absence), but an alternative to levels. Hypothetical for the sake of argument. Yes, entirely different, but completely opposite in that "your poll deals with Levels/Stats/Numbers. My Hypothetical Poll Assumes that players never had numbers and were asked if they would now like numbers. As if CoD4, or BF2 were a large Hybrid (rpg like) MMO, and you asked players would they like to see loads of stats on their gear, and numbers Scrolling all over the Combat environment. How do you think they'd poll??

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Actually I'm not saying that at all.

You're saying "Without numbers it would not be AS DEEP?" or

Quote:

*Numbers Always* results in something deeper than either of the two alone.

But. You are saying it.

You're saying it's impossible to create RPG-MMO depth without numbers, correct? Numbers are a must-have for any new, highly successful, next-gen RPG, Correct?? and,

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Not as deep with a stat or attribute system. The most advanced and well done graphical advancement system can and will always be more complex with added numerical values. Can it still be advanced without them? Of course. Can it be as advanced compared to itself with values? No.

So complexity, and parsing endless stats is what you consider DEPTH, correct?

The basis of your argument, A Highly ADVANCED, Next-Gen;(thus) The Highest State of Depth a RPG MMO can achieve, cannot be absent of viewable Stats/Levels/Numbers. Correct? Numbers are a Must to put the next great RPG MMO on the Top of the Heap, Correct?

Quote:

Can it be as fun? If the company can pull it off, sure, but why risk that when people are content with levels?

And you are certain that if the RPG MMO genre hand never had Stat/levels/numbers in the first place, that people would be bothered, and in a state of discontent by it's shallowness and lack of depth? {Hypothetical of course, but I'd love your comment all the same.} Even the creator of RPG has commented about how he'd never have used levels/stats had he known what he knows now.

Where is it Written, especially in the GW franchise, game community etc, etc that Players are Content With Stats/Levels/Numbers, and the continuous farming, repetitive grinds that accompany them?? Where does it say that GW fans are Content with this? We can all agree that GW1 really has No Levels, as the biggest part of the game is played at ONE LEVEL= (20). Everything Caps, Stats/Levels/Numbers, in early game play. Ergo No Girbel Wheel of Endless Stats.

Who's content? WoW fans? You're on a GW forum, this post only indicates that about 20% that post this thread are still playing WoW. And of that small percentage, how many of them like GW, Non-Stat (or CAPPED) system better than WoWs stat system.

Could be you are fighting against an overwhelming current (could be I am

), I also believe that what Arena Net had suggested for GW2 almost a year back regarding Levels and other features, are not what you believe they will be when GW2 shows itself. Tell me where, in GWEN, are higher levels implemented or required? Maybe they're sticking to early PR and what I'd consider a "Sellout to the WoW" phenomena. Maybe they aren't, and will use an extremely Robust Title system for advancement, with graphical/literal/verbal/audio values rather than numerical.

But you gotta admit, there are loads of GW players very happy with how the GW1 system works, some so happy that they can't imagine leaving it for GW2

Anarkii · Jan 04, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Puriel

: The OP also forgot to mention the problem of RMTs (real money traders) ie. gold farmers in WoW...

RMT is not a problem in WoW. Games like FFXI got destroyed by RMT issues. WoW isn't affected by it at all. The only value of money is epic mounts, consumables, repairs+gems and enchants. You get the best gear out of raiding or arenas which are Bind on Pickup. And with the daily quests, gold isn't a problem at all. In fact, the only people who'd buy gold are casuals(<10 hours a week) who want an epic mount. That is it.

On the other hand, look at RMT in Guild Wars. People can, and do buy everything from FoW armor to tormented weapons and crystallines.

Mordakai · Jan 04, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Just got to Ironforge last night. Holy @#*$! The place is HUGE. Imagine Draknor's Forge x 10.

I really get what people are saying about WoW art design being "better" than Guild Wars: it's not that the graphics are better, I still prefer the realistic look of Guild Wars.

But everything is alive. Gnome tunnels move. There's an underground subway. All sorts of people from newbies like me, to level 70s with epic mounts and Tier 6 armor running around the place. It feels like real city.

OK, now the bad thing:

Skills cost too much money. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I've run out of silver buying all my skills. Maybe you're not supposed to buy every skill, but this ain't Guild Wars with free skill quests.

Hmmm, maybe I should start a WoW Diary in off-topic...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...12#post3506312

tmr819 · Jan 04, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Just got to Ironforge last night. Holy @#*$! The place is HUGE. Imagine Draknor's Forge x 10.

I totally freaked the first time I entered Ironforge. I was like the proverbial country bumpkin ooohing and ahhhing at everything. Even the gryphons freaked me out.

Each city has its own special feel to it. Playing horde is much the same and is cool because it completely turns the world around for you. The tauren city of Thunder Bluff is just ... well, my favorite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

... everything is alive. Gnome tunnels move. There's an underground subway. All sorts of people from newbies like me, to level 70s with epic mounts and Tier 6 armor running around the place. It feels like real city.

I couldn't agree with you more on this. Outposts in GW remind me of the pit stop/rest stations on the New Jersey turnpike. WoW cities feel like real cities, with buildings you can actually enter and so much to see and do and learn.

Damn, but you need to stop posting or I'll have to renew my WoW account sooner rather than later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Skills cost too much money. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I've run out of silver buying all my skills. Maybe you're not supposed to buy every skill, but this ain't Guild Wars with free skill quests.

You'll find you seldom use certain skills. They may all look good, but many are a total waste of money. Some are pure "fluff": "Eyes of the Beast", for example, lets hunters play as their pet for a short period. It's a fun skill, but not very useful. Some skills you will have to buy as a priority; others may just have to wait. It's all a matter of decisions, decisions.

In WoW, you can make decent money from the professions. I know I made a lot of money (as a ranger leathercrafter) from armor kits and from making armor. As a blacksmith, I paid for my mount making mithril boots (seemed like a popular item). If you have alternative characters, you can give them complementary professions and they can mail each other items they make. That's how I played it, anyway.

Guild Wars 2, I have no doubt, will incorporate many of these WoW ("wow!"

) ooh-ahh-type features without the aggravation that -- eventually -- comes in WoW when you begin to realize the "cost" (in time, effort, and aggravation) associated with trying to complete the best (instance) content.

WoW is very fun, very real-feeling, to be sure. And the fun factor does not get stale quickly, imo. Where I started to get frustrated with WoW was in the many dungeons I had to skip past because the grouping mechanism in WoW is really lousy, the time required to complete dungeons is excessive, and the fact that, once you're in one, real-life just has to "shut down" in ways that do not occur in Guild Wars.