Curse

Shuuda · Dec 29, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

If GW2 has lots of things similar to WoW, it will look like a crap attempt to go mainstream (and going against a company they can't beat at making games like WoW I might add), and in doing so will ruin the best things GW did, almost like Oblivion. I'd much rather just have an improved (meaning better balanced, less bugged etc) version on GW1.

And as for worst player base, they're all pretty much the same, all there player bases are 80% human who are safely behind their moniters, and thus, ignorant, selfish, pathetic, hypcritical, arrogant, and immature in general, and this cannot be fixed (sanely that is).

Biostem · Dec 30, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

The only thing I can see WoW has going for it as far as the player base goes, is that it's a "members only" club; you can't just buy the game and then have unlimited access like you can in GW. As such, you may have someone that bought GW 2 years ago and just visits when they're bored...

The other thing to keep in mind is that GW did not come w/ instant product recognition like WoW did. When GW came out, it was basically "just another game" and its major selling point was no monthly fees. Being able to say "from the makers of Diablo/Warcraft/Starcraft" on your box goes a long way to sell units.

Regardless, I tried WoW, didn't care for it, and moved on.

Bryant Again · Dec 30, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

If GW2 has lots of things similar to WoW, it will look like a crap attempt to go mainstream (and going against a company they can't beat at making games like WoW I might add), and in doing so will ruin the best things GW did, almost like Oblivion.

Wait. Oblivion sucked??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

And as for worst player base, they're all pretty much the same, all there player bases are 80% human who are safely behind their moniters, and thus, ignorant, selfish, pathetic, hypcritical, arrogant, and immature in general, and this cannot be fixed (sanely that is).

Dawn of War and Starcraft have given me some of my worst online gaming experiences. The fact that I'm also throwing Guild Wars next to them is terribly depressing. I'd like to say that GW is full of so many assholes because it's competitive, but I've had awesome experiences on CS and TF2, so that's out of the window.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

The other thing to keep in mind is that GW did not come w/ instant product recognition like WoW did. When GW came out, it was basically "just another game" and its major selling point was no monthly fees. Being able to say "from the makers of Diablo/Warcraft/Starcraft" on your box goes a long way to sell units.

Jeff Strain was one of the greatest minds at Blizzard. Knowing that was what got me sold.

And the "no monthly fees" thing is annoyingly misleading, since it causes people to think it's an MMO.

Balan Makki · Dec 30, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I've been really hard on WoW, so I'll try and tame my fury in this post by listing what I did like in WoW. (with a few jabs here and there)

I'd Been a huge Blizzard fan up until the second year of WoW.

The best of WoW.

Alterac Valley Vers.1 The one with the Huge map and tons of PvPvE; best MMO PvP experience I've ever had--Period. This was when players only had access to Blue gear, before Tier-Gear farming took hold and itemization borked PvP. The current version/latest patch of AV is a weak attempt at making it more GWish, they failed miserably.

Dungeons are simply Amazing -- true classics: Strath, Blackrock, Schol, ZG, DM . . . etc. (MC dungeons and higher are rather limp and derivative.) I've never encountered such beautifully constructed dungeons in a game. If GW2 could provide such quality, not necessarily quantity, but quality, they'll have a WoW killer on their hands. WoWs instanced dungeons are much less accessible than dungeons should be. It'd be nice if players could live within/spend more time in these dungeons, whether solo or grouped. Accessibility is abysmal in WoW.

Stealth is handled very well in WoW. The Bonus Mission Pack gave us a taste of what it could be like in GW2 with Gwen's skill--Conditional Stealth, stand near a specific texture, model or zone, shadow etc. and your stealth button lights up ready to use. Would like to see a full featured stealth system in GW. Funcom's Age of Conan will likely have an amazing stealth system.

Pets are far and away superior in WoW, Pets should play like heroes with their own skill-sets, etc. Were pets like heroes, then GW would have superior pets. I guess heroes are sorta like pets, in a weird way.

I enjoyed the grandness and presence of WoW cities. They have a sense of place and purpose and are Architecturally beautiful.

Flying was a nice immersive value in WoW, GW2 could at least add some sort of Hollywood flyby effect/animation rather than the loading screen. Just show a very fast dragon flight through the persistent environment, only long enough for the next town to load up. Same instant travel, just a better transition.

The familiarity of having the same players on the same server helps forge wonderful relationships. The fact that players do not have a dozen alts, allows you to recognize and develop relationships with many familiar faces. GW2 should focus on one avatar/character with many professions. Help players recognize each other. Less anonymity encourages accountability.

Well, there be some measures Arena Net should consider when building GW2. I guess I should have posted these in the GW2 Suggestion thread. I've been making loads of educated guesses/suggestions in that thread, based on what GWs has already done with instancing. It would, in fact, be very easy for Arena Net to increase instancing features, as well as create a massive persistent world. The best of both worlds.

WoW has, for me, a fundamentally flawed core. Level dependencies segregate players--not only competitively, but generally. Levels, and the huge itemization overhead that is the foundation of WoW is a fatal flaw in my opinion. A rather insidious way to hook players into stimulus addiction.

I'm guessing Arena Nets innovations will be Blizzard's Boon, were they to have taken a different direction and opted for a GW model, but in a pay-to-play format, you'd be seeing ten times the content, all of it re-playable, and no itemization issues.

Here's my prediction from this very thread on the other forum. The Evercrack system and all it's dated game mechanics has seen it's culmination in WoW, the future is GW.

By the time GW2 releases, Blizzard will have announced a GW clone for it's next MMO.

Bryant Again · Dec 30, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

WoW has, for me, a fundamentally flawed core. Level dependencies segregate players--not only competitively, but generally. Levels, and the huge itemization overhead that is the foundation of WoW is a fatal flaw in my opinion. A rather insidious way to hook players into stimulus addiction.

Leveling up, finding good gear, big levels - they're things that hook people because they enjoy it. Perhaps it's so addicting because it's fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

I'm guessing Arena Nets innovations will be Blizzard's Boon, were they to have taken a different direction and opted for a GW model, but in a pay-to-play format, you'd be seeing ten times the content, all of it re-playable, and no itemization issues.

Here's my prediction from this very thread on the other forum. The Evercrack system and all it's dated game mechanics has seen it's culmination in WoW, the future is GW.

By the time GW2 releases, Blizzard will have announced a GW clone for it's next MMO.

If Guild Wars is the future, and if all of what's said above is true, then why is GW2 headed in a somewhat WoWish direction?

ensoriki · Dec 30, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If Guild Wars is the future, and if all of what's said above is true, then why is GW2 headed in a somewhat WoWish direction?

Because Guild Wars 2 is a sell out

Balan Makki · Dec 30, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Leveling up, finding good gear, big levels - they're things that hook people because they enjoy it. Perhaps it's so addicting because it's fun.

If Guild Wars is the future, and if all of what's said above is true, then why is GW2 headed in a somewhat WoWish direction?

WoWish direction? Sorry your sadly mistaken. I'd go so far as to say GW2 may not have levels at all. GW1 currently does not have levels, Titles maybe, but 1-20 levels? They mean absolutely nothing in the Meta-game of GW1. And now mean even less with the EoTN buff, for lvl10s+. A Net seems to consider level as a rather valueless feature. And I agree completely with this direction. Titles, Ranks, optional development may be what they value more for GW2, especially considering that EoTN was billed as a small taste of where GW2 is headed.

Most of the hundreds of Guild-mates I had in WoW would disagree with you, raiding is more of a job, farming a single boss two dozen times to get everyone the same Tier gear is a bore, most everyone I've raided with tolerates it at least, but dreads it mostly--what else is there? We've put all this time into our characters, but we have no choice but to Raid til our hemroids hurt. WoW and Everquest style gaming is like a smelly old shoe, you're so used to seeing it around you just can't seem to justify throwing it away. It's done, old, passe, history as far as I'm concerned. Seems the growing popularity and steady, building success of GW should be an indication that there are viable alternatives to a smelly pair of old shoes.

Biostem · Dec 30, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Leveling up, finding good gear, big levels - they're things that hook people because they enjoy it. Perhaps it's so addicting because it's fun.

...or it's because the specifically design the game to be addicting. At this point in time, it is not hard for a developer to do a little research and know what sorts of things keep people playing and paying, and to include such features into their game. Getting to the top, or getting *the* best piece of gear is a very strong motivator for people, and by making those goals hard to get and require a lot of time is an intentional decision. Blizzard could just as easily make max armor or max weapons easy to come by, so players can focus on the content instead of the grind, but they chose not to...

Bryant Again · Dec 30, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

WoWish direction? Sorry your sadly mistaken. I'd go so far as to say GW2 may not have levels at all. GW1 currently does not have levels, Titles maybe, but 1-20 levels? They mean absolutely nothing in the Meta-game of GW1. And now mean even less with the EoTN buff, for lvl10s+. A Net seems to consider level as a rather valueless feature. And I agree completely with this direction. Titles, Ranks, optional development may be what they value more for GW2, especially considering that EoTN was billed as a small taste of where GW2 is headed.

They stated that the level cap in GW2 could very well be infinite. That's the part of WoWish I was referring to. Now, having levels matter is something entirely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Most of the hundreds of Guild-mates I had in WoW would disagree with you.

Likewise, all three of my guilds would very well disagree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Seems the growing popularity and steady, building success of GW should be an indication that there are viable alternatives to a smelly pair of old shoes.

If those shoes are so goddamn smelly, why doesn't anyone notice?

That aside, I'd prefer that you refer to my above post concerning Guild Wars' "success". It's doing great as an RPG. As an MMO, it probably doesn't even compete with Lineage/Lineage 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

...or it's because the specifically design the game to be addicting.

At this point I'm referring less to WoW and more to RPGs in general. Oblivion would not be as fun if you started the game at level 25 and with Daedric armor weapons. Diablo would not be as enjoyable if you started with all of the best gear in the game and at level 99. My point is that people like progression, they like advancing a character, and they like getting stronger and better loot. It's why people play RPG's, essentially - besides playing as their alter ego.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

Blizzard could just as easily make max armor or max weapons easy to come by, so players can focus on the content instead of the grind, but they chose not to...

If you consider playing through the raids and instances as "grinds", then I'd wonder what you'd consider content?

Redfeather1975 · Dec 30, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Raising levels, replacing gear every x levels, buying upgrades to existing spells...are primarily to restrict character progression, while conveying a sense of reward for playing longer. They are also time/money sinks to help prolong the progression necessary to access newer content.

It's why most online rpg's try very hard to design a system that hinders power leveling and gold farming tricks. They do a lot of analysis of playtime necessary to get from point A to point B and even know when players are willing to push through to another payment, usually levels 19, 29, ect....surprise surprise.

mastermaxx1 · Dec 30, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

World of Warcraft is a more intelligent game than GW, because it requires you to think a lot more about how to handle specific situations, instead of spamming C + Space. Even solo quests that require you to “kill 20 demons” require some tactics, as you have to be aware not to (a): aggro an enemy during combat or (b): not aggro an additional enemy. Some quests require you to kill three enemies at the same time, which requires skill, practice, and luck for many classes. Group Dungeons and Heroic Dungeons require constant attention from all members of the party, due to threat. Threat is proportional to the amount of damage done by a player. Enemies will attack the member on their hate list with the most threat. If a DPS class outputs too much threat, he dies. If the tank is ineffective, the group dies. One boss in a normal Dungeon for example, Blackheart the Inciter, mind-controls your entire party for 20 seconds every minute and forces you to kill each other. How do you prepare for that? How do you recover from that? Raids amplify this difficulty; not only do you have to manage threat, threat can be constantly reset or even ignored, meaning that everyone in the raid must watch what they are doing.

[subjective]Putting hours of effort into obtaining more power makes more sense to me than spending hours for a slightly cooler weapon…[/subjective]

I haven't played alot of WoW, just a free trial and watched my friends play who own the game but I don't see it as an intelligent game in most ways, and this is for 1 particular reason....Macros. GWs doesn't have, you have to click on your skills when you need to use them stuff like that. From what I saw my friend do with macros all he did was run in, sit back and let them do the work, and get the loot. If you're going to say that WoW is an intelligent game thats fine but don't say it's more intelligent than GWs because it's not. If anything they're equally intelligent.

DreamRunner · Dec 30, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

The number of active accounts for WoW is irrelevant because people only per server. I thought there was a huge thread about this between Bryant and I?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Dawn of War and Starcraft have given me some of my worst online gaming experiences. The fact that I'm also throwing Guild Wars next to them is terribly depressing. I'd like to say that GW is full of so many assholes because it's competitive, but I've had awesome experiences on CS and TF2, so that's out of the window.

WoW has the biggest number of assholes in any other game. Hell look at their forum. When it first came out, magazines quoting on how bad the community was, saying its the worse bunch of people some have ever come across.

In terms of quality, I would say WoW is the worse gaming people I had to deal with. I would put Diablo 1 and 2 in there too, for fact that online Diablo was so bad.

Bryant Again · Dec 30, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

The number of active accounts for WoW is irrelevant because people only per server. I thought there was a huge thread about this between Bryant and I?

I'm not talking about 9 million people playing together, I'm talking about 9 million playing period. What does server seperation have to do with it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

WoW has the biggest number of assholes in any other game. Hell look at their forum.

Stopping you right there because you should *never* come to conclusions based off of forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

In terms of quality, I would say WoW is the worse gaming people I had to deal with. I would put Diablo 1 and 2 in there too, for fact that online Diablo was so bad.

The thing is that it's largely server dependent. The problem, though, is determining which servers are the worst (I'll get everyone here started: Don't play on Illidan.)

Shuuda · Dec 30, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Wait. Oblivion sucked??

How can I put it, Oblivion was a good game, a very good game, but a bad Elder Scrolls game.

Quote:

Dawn of War and Starcraft have given me some of my worst online gaming experiences. The fact that I'm also throwing Guild Wars next to them is terribly depressing. I'd like to say that GW is full of so many assholes because it's competitive, but I've had awesome experiences on CS and TF2, so that's out of the window.

Your most likely right on that one, but you can't say that CS (Counter strike I assume) and TF2 don't have assholes in them.

Nevin · Dec 30, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Because Guild Wars 2 is a sell out

I wouldn't say that, GW2 is simply answering what a large amount of people has been asking for. GW2 may be a sell out for the common GW gamer opposed to the hard core GW gamer.

Oblivion did suck (at least to me) by the way, sorry I mean it and I say what I mean. What the game boiled down to was being a jack of all trades, if you put the attributes you'd be using the least as your primaries and the attributes you'd be using the most as your secondaries, your over all attribute levels will sky rocket (due to the bonuses and what not as you level). So being specific in any grouping of attributes is incredibly impractical. To me it just wasn't fun, there was no sense of differentiation in Oblivion. My wizard would be wearing leather and plate mail, I never found a reason to equip him with a robe. Not to mention the animations in the game were horrendous, I dare you to go into third person. A wizard was my second character, but my first was a "rogue" type. When I got his acrobatics high enough to do back flips, I was sorely disappointed that his nimbleness was more equivalent to a retard throwing himself back against the floor. Pair crappy animations with a repetitive attack system, and spell effects that all basically looked the same, well... Oblivion just wasn't all that it was meant to be for me. Sure I enjoyed running around and stealing things from peoples houses, and what not, but I felt like I was playing GTA at that point and no longer an Elder Scrolls game. The freedom was great, but I just couldn't get over the artistic direction of the game, it didn't immerse me at all. The environments were beautiful yes, but the people, cold lifeless products of graphical rendering with out artistic talent. I liked the game, and I enjoyed playing it, but it definitely didn't deserve all the attention it got. To me the game just suffered from broken RPG mechanics from the beginning, something with more likeness to traditional D&D would've gotten the job done much better. Failed at the action element of which it claimed, sneaking as a rogue is fun and all... but its no Splinter Cell experience. Finally this game proves that artistic style > graphical power. Of course this is just from the eyes of a simple gamer and hardcore bio ware fan for his RPGing needs. /rant

Redfeather1975 · Dec 30, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The thing is that it's largely server dependent. The problem, though, is determining which servers are the worst (I'll get everyone here started: Don't play on Illidan.)

I honestly try my best to remember the names, but I played on Shadow Council, Cenarion Circle, and Dethecus.
Out of those 3, only 1 seemed to have a lot of jerks. The other 2 seemed okay.

Darkobra · Dec 30, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

How can I put it, Oblivion was a good game, a very good game, but a bad Elder Scrolls game.

Your most likely right on that one, but you can't say that CS (Counter strike I assume) and TF2 don't have assholes in them.

I'm sure he meant "awesome" in the most sarcastic sense possible. You really do get some epic pricks on those games.

Shuuda · Dec 30, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

I'm sure he meant "awesome" in the most sarcastic sense possible. You really do get some epic pricks on those games.

You get epic pricks in ALL games, what matters is how many there are and how offen they ruin your fun.

Darkobra · Dec 30, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

In gun games? Nearly all of them and far, far more than in GW.

Balan Makki · Dec 30, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

They stated that the level cap in GW2 could very well be infinite.

Could? I highly doubt Arena Net will turn GW2 into an Everquest clone, and they've stated such in more recent interviews.

Quote:

If those shoes are so goddamn smelly, why doesn't anyone notice?

The same reason people offer you breath mints, or suggest you brush your teeth, or that you need to use more deodorant. Sorry, many here in the GW community do notice the smell, a really awful smell. It's why this thread exists. It's the entire basis for the WoW vs GW argument. WoW's masterful use of Evercrack stimulus addiction smells to high heaven, people are finally catching on--thus GW success. You are wearing a pair of smelly old shoes, it's all I'm saying. You have just grown used to the stink. You'll likely never notice, or really care if it helps feed the gerbil wheel of addiction that you call Fun.

Quote:

Likewise, all three of my guilds would very well disagree with you. . .

If you consider playing through the raids and instances as "grinds", then I'd wonder what you'd consider content?

Playing through raid instances a few times or maybe even a handfull of times is content, even being able to solo/or two-team many times over a few years qualifies as sound game design. Being required group-up for untold (hemroid inducing) hours to play through Dozens(plural) of times to advance your character is a sick joke. Your guilds obviously suffer from the same blind addiction--an insidious waisting disease called Evercrack.

Sorry for being so harsh, but a few of my best WoW friends have lost it, they're showing such horrid signs of addiction that they constantly threaten their wives, families with divorce/abandonment, completely destroying real-life friendships etc. . . It's very sad, but unfortunately true.

WoW as a game does more harm than good.

p.s. the OP obviously does not PvP in WoW, as the only solid ground WoW pvp has is mid game. lvl 19, 29, etc. . . Even with the scourge of twinked players.