Curse

Burst Cancel · Apr 26, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

I don't see the point of the Well, unless it does something I'm not aware of.

It's common knowledge that H/H > average players. I think this speaks volumes about the GW community as a whole, and to some extent, gamers in general.

Div · Apr 27, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

I beat the mission with one hench monk on a ranger. Two would've slowed down my run.

Aera Lure · Apr 27, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

It's common knowledge that H/H > average players. I think this speaks volumes about the GW community as a whole, and to some extent, gamers in general.

Actually, its very sad, and one of the main reasons I have no desire to play anymore. I used to PUG all the time prior to the introduction of heroes and, despite what many choose to say now, most of the time those PUGs were successful. Worst thing that happened to the game, effectively removing anyone's desire to form a group, leaving mostly new and inexperienced players to try, hence the bad reputation PUGs have now.

Sure, I used heroes and had fun with them. My guild leader and I did Legendary Guardian and Master of the North with them. Good times. I'd rather do anything else now though than play a fairly repetitive game with predictable AI, over and over. Simply had enough of that.

howlinghobo · Apr 27, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

It's ironic to see how elitist pve'ers have become despite constant rants of pvp'ers doing it.
They're noobs if they cant h/h this mission? If they can't use hero monks? Well what if they only had prophecies, it's prefectly legitimate for people to be unable to complete the end mission in a game without help from good players. Yet often these guys at Hell's Precipice are barred from groups just because they don't have the perfect skill bar.

Burst Cancel · Apr 27, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I agree it's sad, but it's an unavoidable consequence of how people play games, and has little or nothing to do with heroes; the only thing heroes did was highlight the existing problem.

The plain fact is that the overwhelming majority of people don't play games seriously - they won't bother to learn anything or get better at the game because it simply doesn't matter to them whether they're good players or not. They play the game for fun, not to be ub3r l33t. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, but it does mean that most of the people you meet in-game are going to be horribly inept. That's no problem if you're a casual player yourself (and if you are a casual player, you're unlikely to know enough about the game to accurately judge whether anyone else is good or not anyway), but good players don't like being held back by the incompetence of their teammates. Thus, the good players naturally flee from the general community if given an opportunity (ala heroes and henchmen).

As I've said before, people generally don't like playing with people far outside of their level of skill or their approach to the game. Hardcore players don't play well with casual players, and vice versa. There's no problem in high-end PvP because the PvP environment itself acts like a filter. PvE used to have filters too (where you could reasonably expect people at a particular point in the game to have some level of competence), but PvE is so easy at this point that there's really no way to cluster people according to skill.

The bottom line is that most people fail at the game because it's not important to them. Nothing wrong with that, but it does mean that PuG quality won't ever really improve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by howlinghobo

It's ironic to see how elitist pve'ers have become despite constant rants of pvp'ers doing it.
They're noobs if they cant h/h this mission? If they can't use hero monks? Well what if they only had prophecies, it's prefectly legitimate for people to be unable to complete the end mission in a game without help from good players. Yet often these guys at Hell's Precipice are barred from groups just because they don't have the perfect skill bar.

I don't think 'elitist' means what you think it means. What you're describing is arrogance and egotism, not elitism.

As for being banned from groups - this happens because people don't see any reason to gimp their teams. Remember that good players are playing the game to have fun too; hand-holding and babysitting gets old pretty fast.

Aera Lure · Apr 27, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I agree it's sad, but it's an unavoidable consequence of how people play games, and has little or nothing to do with heroes; the only thing heroes did was highlight the existing problem.

Has everything to do with heroes, since it used to be more of a community game, PUGs actually formed regularly, and by and large worked. Now its simply encouraged an elite mentality where if you cant party with players with the build you want, you dont. You play only with AI set the way you want. Brilliant, in original conception, but the end result is the paradigm shift into what the game has now become.

Dont get me wrong, this is a great change for a good number of people. I even enjoyed it for a while. Most support it. I just find it really sad as it took a lot of dynamic away from the PvE game. I could only play with AI for so long before I simply no longer cared to. Sure, that's just me, and sure, I can find something else to play. No denying though that heroes wrecked the original grouping dynamic in Prophecies and Factions. The only question is whether its a good or a bad thing.

Burst Cancel · Apr 27, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

You're reframing the problem into something different than what I was addressing. The decline in the number of PuGs is attributable to heroes in the sense that it gave more people a way out of them. Players were already doing henchway+guildway in Prophecies (I did); heroes lowered the bar of how good you had to be at the game to be able to solo it.

The problem with that kind of reasoning is that it ignores the underlying problem: that PuGs suck, and always did. In Prophecies you sucked it up and joined them anyway because in some cases it was the only real game in town. I don't buy into the whole "good 'ol days of PuGs" nostalgia because I was there too; it didn't take long for myself and others to recognize PuGs for the bottomless cesspools of shocking incompetence that they were. Some people enjoyed the 'social interaction' too much to care, and others were bad enough at the game back then to not realize just how terrible PuGs really were.

The inescapable fact is that if you're a player that puts in any real thought and effort, chances are that 90% of the playerbase is worse at the game than you - maybe much worse. When heroes weren't available, you might not have had anyone else to turn to (if henchies couldn't cut it for you), but that doesn't mean it was an ideal situation for you, and it doesn't mean that PuGs were much better back then.

Lest121 · Apr 27, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Sure Hero Monks are Nice, but 2 real (Experienced) monks makes this a Complete Push over, I ran through this Mission in 17mins Yesterday i was totally Shocked.

PS:No Ursan.

zling · Apr 27, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

for some reason I usually PuG instead of H&H. something with playing with actual people and beating missions even with stupid Monks who use mending and idiotic Warriors who use Firestorm.
however when I see a certain area where I keep failing over and over again with a PuG I just H&H it... my heroes are good, PuGs arent. my heroes are AI PuGs arent...
AI>stupid players but it's still AI and I somewhat like to play the game with real people, which is why I lean more towards PvP than PvE but do enjoy PvE to some extent.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Apr 27, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I beat the mission with my ele with this bar.
[Glyph Of Renewal][Pain Inverter][Breath of the Great Dwarf]["You are all weaklings!"][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Ward Against Elements][Ward Against Melee][Resurrection Signet]

Also with 3 sabway necros, little thom, lina, dunham, and eve.
I know my build is funny. My ele was lacking proper water ele skills. Also, it went slow, but no one died at least.

Master Knightfall · Apr 27, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I just don't understand the world of pay me pay me pay me....I remember one time my son asked me how much I would pay him when I said to go mow the lawn...well, let's just say he never said that again. <grin> No, I didn't beat him, I just said well let's see I pay for your cell phone, I pay for all your food and clothes, I pay to send you to school, I pay for all your dates and gas in your car...how much do you think I should pay you for mowing the lawn? <grin>
People need to start being nice to one another and forget about payment and do things to be nice and considerate. I don't think I've ever seen such a mean and dishonest and cruel group of people as I've run into in GW and on these forums. If this is what the world is coming to you're all in trouble in the future.

Burst Cancel · Apr 27, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

I'm more concerned with the softening of society than the hardening of it. We've got far too many carebears and crybabies and far too few thinkers and doers.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 27, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I'm more concerned with the softening of society than the hardening of it. We've got far too many carebears and crybabies and far too few thinkers and doers.

he said, self importantly.

You should know, most GW players are casual gamers, they are either playing this in their spare time after work/school or playing other games as well. Casual GW players will never be as good as people that play GW only and they honestly don't care. They're playing for fun.

Alleji · Apr 27, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Baed players are baed?

Seriously, 3 years ago people were henching this. Now they can't do it with heroes? I ran precipice twice in HM with a friend + 6 heroes and once in NM with H/H. Not even that much difference between HM and NM, except the imps hurt in HM... EDIT: I suppose hands/fists would hit pretty hard in HM too, but we ran so much melee shutdown it wasn't really noticeable.

As far as I can remember, precipice was always easy. Abaddon's mouth and RoF were the hard ones.

Burst Cancel · Apr 27, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

he said, self importantly.

You should know, most GW players are casual gamers, they are either playing this in their spare time after work/school or playing other games as well. Casual GW players will never be as good as people that play GW only and they honestly don't care. They're playing for fun.

I've already addressed your point above. Twice, in fact.

My comment isn't inherently any more self-important than any other opinion.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 27, 2008, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I've already addressed your point above. Twice, in fact.

My comment isn't inherently any more self-important than any other opinion.

OK, I admit I didn't read every post, you're right, my apologies. I just thought you were getting a little bit too philosophical with the post I quoted - which prompted my post. So - nvm.

**cosyfiep** · Apr 27, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

hm, I have done this 4 times this weekend already ---3 with pugs (1 of them with one of my monks).....had great pugs each time....maybe its just me....but if you get a well rounded group (aka not all w/mo) you should be able to do this mission fairly easily with ANY pug.....regardless of whom it might contain.
(the other time I did it I wanted to map the area so I decided that a pug would NOT be happy about me wasting their time doing something like that so I h/h-and yes completed it just fine).

Master Knightfall · Apr 27, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

I don't think 'elitist' means what you think it means. What you're describing is arrogance and egotism, not elitism.

Same thing that's what all elitist act like as well. Just more attributes to add to the definition in my book.

CagedinSanity · Apr 27, 2008, 04:26 AM // 04:26

I've done a few HP runs now and no ursanways. Completely normal teams.

Quit bitching, normal groups still exist.

Turbobusa · Apr 27, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

May I just ask, did anyone remember if sparks really used to hit for 198 with rodgort?! Because I had a few surprise with that.

Ho and if everyone is so good, everyone should just beat the mission with or without bad players since they have uber skills.
Or they are just random players that aren't better than the average and just ask a monk to be able to compensate frensig under 5 meteor shower while beaten by 3 hands/fist