Curse

manitoba1073 · Apr 20, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Changing your build to give you a different strategy against a known enemy is generally referred to as 'buildwars', and is the most basic form of countering.

Let me expand this; there are hard counters and soft counters. A soft counter is a skill that can be used to deal with a variety of enemy skills. An example is Diversion or Distracting Shot. These skills are commonly found in balanced builds as they are quite versatile. A hard counter is a skill that is useless in most battles but will completely wreck someone using a specific other skill. An example is Ignorance against Signet Mesmers, or Frigid Armor against Searing Flames.

Almost every skill has a hard counter to it. Buildwars, or changing one's build to deal with what you're going to face, usually involves adding hard counters against the enemy's build so as to be most effectively prepared for it, while impairing the ability to fight other builds not covered. A general example would be to run nrtranq against a hexway team.

Long story short, speccing your build against something is countering. It does not mean what you just countered with a rock vs scissors build was balanced.

To give a practical example, with [sad] we ran 5-hex. This build is ridiculously broken as most people who have fought it will agree. Our opponent, WASD, ran 2 LoD, 1 Divert Hexes, 2 HEV mesmers with shatter hex, and most chars with Hex Breaker. They won, does that make 5-hex not broken?

In summary, you are wrong Manitoba. Off you go.

It just means that they outplayed you by figuring what youd run. Sucks to be you now sit in ur corner and wait for your next turn.

It shows you were unwilling or un-prepared to meet resistence to ur own build. Once again go sit in your own corner and wait for the next match.

No where did I say anything about changing ones build so no that is not countering but changing the way you ccould have used the build is statergy so you are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Because no matter what you do to those, they only work if you go against massed paragons. In the 75% of matches where you don't, that slot is completely useless.

Second, if a hard counter to your build exists, you can bet like hell you're bringing a counter of some kind to it - in the case of paraspike, it's expel hexes.

Pearing beforehand? What if I'm not hungry, or if my pear isn't ripe? You should really consider the current meta when proposing fruit-based solutions.

You should considering getting freshers pears.

If your bringing a skill and not a strategy that only works against 25% of your matches thats your own damn fault and not Anets to nerf others build so you can feel better.

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No where did I say anything about changing ones build so no that is not countering but changing the way you ccould have used the build is statergy so you are wrong.

Let's look at what you said, actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Changing your build to fight against a specific overpowered skill/build is, believe it or not, countering it.

To which you replied:

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No its omg 1 minute gasp ready for it. strategy. oh ahhh. please go back to school and stop pretending you know anything at all.

So yes, you were referring to changing builds.

Quote:

It shows you were unwilling or un-prepared to meet resistence to ur own build. Once again go sit in your own corner and wait for the next match.

Except you don't always know what you'll face. Meaning you can easily end up rock-paper-scissored by a crap guild running a build that directly counters yours, or a gimmick build that relies on opponents not having hard counters. See good guilds like EvIL that still lost to blood/ranger spike teams because of the build rather than the team.

Buildwars works both ways - not having counters to a one-dimensional gimmick, or bringing counters to hammer down a build. You should not have to bring hard counters in order to stand a fighting chance, but quite a few games are decided before the team even walks out of the Guild Hall. Look at the finals for the Winter tourney 2006 - PnH brought a build full of spike counters to hold back Celebrities' Eurospike. In the end, they just went for an even more broken spike because trying to counter something so incredibly high on the power scale was retarded.

Magikarp · Apr 20, 2008, 06:12 AM // 06:12

some of you seem like you're really getting the big picture of this whole downward spiral now....

i really hope anet cares to look at smart discussion like this..

Holly Herro · Apr 20, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Lol.

Methinks they should remove ALL the skills except the core.

That'll be fun..

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i really hope anet cares to look at smart discussion like this..

Don't see why. They certainly weren't paying attention to it before.

Unless Ms. Regina turns out to be some sort of superhero representative...

Age · Apr 20, 2008, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Give it up Mani we aren't balancing default and loadout shiplist here although if they understood that balance.They might have better idea of what you are talking about.

I wanted to make that earlier post as it was in my thought at the time and Regina was online.

manitoba1073 · Apr 20, 2008, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Give it up Mani we aren't balancing default and loadout shiplist here although if they understood that balance.They might have better idea of what you are talking about.

I wanted to make that earlier post as it was in my thought at the time and Regina was online.

I know AGE they wouldnt know real balance even if it slapped them up the side of the head a few hundred times.

Avarre. At no point did I say that. I said about changing your strategy. Just because you cant see beyound that strategy means something else besides changing skills is not my fault or anets. Looks like you still have a few more things to be taught about PvP.

nugzta · Apr 20, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Obviously Manitoba doesnt know what he's talking about, he is simply giving his biased PvE point of view. The main difference between PvE and PvP is that one is predictable and the other is unknown.

I already pointed out it is easier to bring counter in PvE because the monsters always have the same skillbar. It doesnt matter if Shiro has overpowered Meditation of Reaper, people just wiki it how to beat Shiro and therefore people already anticipate to spec against him.

In PvP, you dont know what you are up against. Sure you can spec against the current FoTM but in the end it would be another gimmick and would get rolled by other teams running different builds. Anyone can run hard counter against R/D way which most the time can be found farming fame in HA Underworld. But at later stage, they would get rolled by balance groups because they are only prepared to fight against R/D way teams.

Therefore "Use the counter" argument is not valid in PvP but people always use that argument in every skill balance update thread for their PvE whining.

manitoba1073 · Apr 20, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugzta

Obviously Manitoba doesnt know what he's talking about, he is simply giving his biased PvE point of view. The main difference between PvE and PvP is that one is predictable and the other is unknown.

I already pointed out it is easier to bring counter in PvE because the monsters always have the same skillbar. It doesnt matter if Shiro has overpowered Meditation of Reaper, people just wiki it how to beat Shiro and therefore people already anticipate to spec against him.

In PvP, you dont know what you are up against. Sure you can spec against the current FoTM but in the end it would be another gimmick and would get rolled by other teams running different builds. Anyone can run hard counter against R/D way which most the time can be found farming fame in HA Underworld. But at later stage, they would get rolled by balance groups because they are only prepared to fight against R/D way teams.

Therefore "Use the counter" argument is not valid in PvP but people always use that argument in every skill balance update thread for their PvE whining.

For accusing me of saying about using a counter, I didnt. The only ones who seem to not know what the hell they are talking about are the ones who is talking about counters. As Ive never said bring a counter skill. Since you guys cant seem to grasp the simple Ill say it again.

Changing your strategy, simple as that, doesnt mean change your skills. Change how you are using the skills you currently are using. There are different ways a single skill can be used in conjunction with strategy. BUt if you guys really knew PvP you should have known that, but like I also said before I guess Im giving to much credit to some people around here.

JoeKnowMo · Apr 20, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Give an idiot enough rope and he'll hang himself.

Sab · Apr 20, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

For accusing me of saying about using a counter, I didnt. The only ones who seem to not know what the hell they are talking about are the ones who is talking about counters. As Ive never said bring a counter skill. Since you guys cant seem to grasp the simple Ill say it again.

Changing your strategy, simple as that, doesnt mean change your skills. Change how you are using the skills you currently are using. There are different ways a single skill can be used in conjunction with strategy. BUt if you guys really knew PvP you should have known that, but like I also said before I guess Im giving to much credit to some people around here.

I'm pretty sure Gaile used the same argument in response to "games being decided before the gates open". She was horribly mistaken. Speaking of which, do you like pie?

DarkNecrid · Apr 20, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

For accusing me of saying about using a counter, I didnt. The only ones who seem to not know what the hell they are talking about are the ones who is talking about counters. As Ive never said bring a counter skill. Since you guys cant seem to grasp the simple Ill say it again.

Changing your strategy, simple as that, doesnt mean change your skills. Change how you are using the skills you currently are using. There are different ways a single skill can be used in conjunction with strategy. BUt if you guys really knew PvP you should have known that, but like I also said before I guess Im giving to much credit to some people around here.

Yeah, I can use Divert Hexes to...uh.......Divert Hexes...and....uh......Divert Hexes!

I can use Spear of Lightning to uh.....build adrenaline and deal light damage...and...ujh.....build adrenaline and deal light damage.

I can use Dark Pact to uh....deal big damage and..uh...deal big damage.

every skill has a single way to use it in itself, in a build, because every skill only has 1 description. the only way to change your strategy *is* to change your skills, and if you think any different then you don't even play PvP at all.

Fril Estelin · Apr 20, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Funnily, I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread, but with a very different twist: what is skill balance? (emphasis on the last word)

IMHO, we're far from the correct idea of what this means, as there're so many facets to many GW players and the community. And people adapt at different speed, because of the time they have to play the game and their playstyles. It's unfair to try to treat everyone on the same ground. And you don't balance NM, HM, GvG, and HA the same way. So overall in GW1, is there a need for something more, given the diversity of the problem?

In GW2, I'd like to see the dichotomy PvE/PvP disappear completely. Skills are just skills, and you can fight humans or AI with them (people may be smart, but AIs are fast, synchronised and very reactive to the set of programmed actions). Then balance would be brought into the equation by automated means on Anet's side, where they examine when players/teams win too easily on this or that part of the game, with statistics on the skills used (both by players and monsters, thus enabling an almost-automatic response. But imbalance should also be introduced to enable people to look for new ways to play and have a non-bland gameplay experience (being pwned is not a nice moment but you do get strong feelings and emotions, you remember what it feels like), maybe with more randomisation over the skills (this way, the skill balance can be a bit less visible). I'd even like to see gears/armors brought into the equation, but I think that NF inscriptions, HM and things like the BMP are already doing a good job. (then comes the question of how you balance the economy and it becomes a nightmare!)

IMHO, with GW2's linked instances, skills will become a little less of a problem, with the strategy (as in Factions) and storyline (as in favor) mixing seemlessly into everyone's experience. So it won't only be about your skillbar only, because the situation you're facing will be changing in an almost random fashion. May be we'll get evolving monsters and NPCs too: earning XP and getting new skills?

Master Knightfall · Apr 20, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

See good guilds like EvIL that still lost to blood/ranger spike teams because of the build rather than the team.

This is the part I get tired of reading out of pvpers. If someone beats them all of a sudden it's not the players that beat them, but, only the skills they used on their bars. Not even considering that timing takes a skilled effort to do as well as agility of hand eye cordinations while playing any part of this game both pve and pvp. There's alwasy those with an excuse for losing and it's almost never applied to skill by their opponents, but, anything and everything that attempts to prove that they didn't lose to skill, but, only to gimmick builds or extinuating circumstances. Accept your defeat and your loss and your own pitiful builds and lack of skills instead of looking for excuses why there should never be any other skill sets except the ones you choose.

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

This is the part I get tired of reading out of pvpers. If someone beats them all of a sudden it's not the players that beat them, but, only the skills they used on their bars. Not even considering that timing takes a skilled effort to do as well as agility of hand eye cordinations while playing any part of this game both pve and pvp. There's alwasy those with an excuse for losing and it's almost never applied to skill by their opponents, but, anything and everything that attempts to prove that they didn't lose to skill, but, only to gimmick builds or extinuating circumstances. Accept your defeat and your loss and your own pitiful builds and lack of skills instead of looking for excuses why there should never be any other skill sets except the ones you choose.

And with this post, all of your Guild Wars credibility vanishes forever.

Akuma · Apr 20, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

This is the part I get tired of reading out of pvpers. If someone beats them all of a sudden it's not the players that beat them, but, only the skills they used on their bars. Not even considering that timing takes a skilled effort to do as well as agility of hand eye cordinations while playing any part of this game both pve and pvp. There's alwasy those with an excuse for losing and it's almost never applied to skill by their opponents, but, anything and everything that attempts to prove that they didn't lose to skill, but, only to gimmick builds or extinuating circumstances. Accept your defeat and your loss and your own pitiful builds and lack of skills instead of looking for excuses why there should never be any other skill sets except the ones you choose.

Crom The Pale · Apr 20, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

PvE is about stability.
PvP is about diversity.

In one you learn from mistakes so you can build the perfect counter, and know that it will work anytime you come accross a foe using that same strategy. In the other you have no knowladge of whats coming so you need to build something that will work vs everything and hope you do not run into something completely unexpected that is the perfect counter to your build.

Balancing one will always imbalance the other as long as you only look at the skills. They have improved PvE through AI changes however there are a number of other ways they could improve the game without damaging PvP at all.

Having such things as Exhaustion work slightly different in PvE and PvP for example. PvP = 10energy loss, PvE = 5energy loss.

Minion caps could be set differently in PvP/PvE and in PvE hard mode as well.

Adjusting some skills so that they have a broder effect when used vs a non human fow, like [club of a thousand bears]. Imagine adding to Hexes, If target is non-human then 1-3 nearby foes are also effected.

They could also adjust what is concidered In The Area and Nearby and Ear Shot to create a better balance between how they work in the limited arena space vs the wide open places of PvE.

These are just ideas off the top of my head, but you can see there is a great deal of flexability they can utilize to balance the game outside of pure skill changes.

stale · Apr 20, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyvil

I have learned to endure Ursan to achieve the only thing that really keeps me in GW. Without the mindless grind for titles, I would not tolerate the mindless grind of playing an Ursan "build." Ursan makes the grind go faster. Once through the title grind, I intend to "enjoy" other aspects of the game, possibly even more PvP, assuming I can figure out how to stay alive for more than 12 seconds.

If the titles rewarded play, rather than grind, it may be a different story. If titles were based on points for utilizing the core attribute wisely, or a particular skill type well, or exceptional use of conditions, hexes or interrupts rather than points towards a title track that improves all ready strong skills even more, I might feel less grind. That is a very convoluted sentece - how about, give me a title for interrupts, rather than for UB?

PvP vs PvE? I think that I have two main problems with the balances. The first is that a toon, on its own, can be made useless. I used to love my Paragon. Because of the balances in PvP, because of truly overpowered P teams, I cannot get my sole Paragon in a PvE group because of those same balances. That stinks. My Paragon does still have a purpose, he is currently full of mods from raptor farming. The other thing that I do not like is having to spend a bunch of time figuring out new builds. I do enjoy experimenting, but spending time creating builds takes away from time spent towards completing missions, vanquishes, etc. It is nice to be able to jump in and complete a little something in a half hour, without having to retool, not just my toon build, but the heroes that come along as well. Associated with this is the fact the the PvP community can change weapons and runes on a whim. Some of these balances mean that I have to spend gold on these items for my toon and heroes, money that would otherwise be spent on knocking a title out of the way.

There seems to be such a difference between the purpose of PvP and PvE that I often have to remind myself to look at it from the other perspective. This is diffeicult as I do not PvP (ask me to GvG sometime, easy points for you). PvP is, at least from my perspective, highly competitive. PvE is, for me, a time to lay back and unwind. PvP requires thought and, although I am capable of this, this is something I choose not to spend my time on. I think this is why I tend to resent the balances, although I am sure that many will be happy to tell me that this is not what I think, followed by a few random shift characters and then a kind explanation of what I should be thinking.

i do believe this is my favorite guru post in ages. possibly in all the time i've been playing gw... thank you!

you've managed to point out civilly what i normally wish to express by bashing someone's head against the wall till their brains ooze out their ears.

Sab · Apr 20, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Balancing one will always imbalance the other as long as you only look at the skills. They have improved PvE through AI changes however there are a number of other ways they could improve the game without damaging PvP at all.

Having such things as Exhaustion work slightly different in PvE and PvP for example. PvP = 10energy loss, PvE = 5energy loss.

Minion caps could be set differently in PvP/PvE and in PvE hard mode as well.

Adjusting some skills so that they have a broder effect when used vs a non human fow, like [club of a thousand bears]. Imagine adding to Hexes, If target is non-human then 1-3 nearby foes are also effected.

They could also adjust what is concidered In The Area and Nearby and Ear Shot to create a better balance between how they work in the limited arena space vs the wide open places of PvE.

These are just ideas off the top of my head, but you can see there is a great deal of flexability they can utilize to balance the game outside of pure skill changes.

So, basically, PvE is currently too hard so you want your skills to be more powerful. Are you seriously suggesting that would be an improvement to PvE?

Zamochit · Apr 20, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

No I believe that he means when balancing certain skills such as splinter weapon, you could utilise the fact that pve is ordinarily against non human foes. effectivly 'Nerfing' damage, recharge etc for pvp to maintain balance there, but keeping the skill the same in most cases in pve. For example.

[skill]splinter weapon[/skill]Weapon Spell. For 20 seconds, target ally has a Splinter Weapon. Target ally's next 1...4 attacks deal 5...41 damage to up to 3 adjacent foes.

Could become

[skill]splinter weapon[/skill]Weapon Spell. For 20 seconds, target ally has a Splinter Weapon. Target ally's next 1...4 attacks deal 5...41 damage to up to 3 adjacent human foes or ALL adjacent non-human foes.

Skills could have damage buffs against certain enemy types, that sort of thing (in the same way that Holy damage deals double damage to undead.) Im not saying its necessary but its something they could take into consideration for GW2