Curse

nugzta · Apr 19, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

"Meditation of the Reaper" is counterable, but unbalanced. So when can we expect the skill balance????

Because in PvE you know it is coming, so you would bring the counter before start the mission against Shiro. If only Meditation of the Reaper is put randomly in PvE monsters .....

Kashrlyyk · Apr 19, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

.... Because they can't think of any way to solve things if the foes are constantly changing.
...
PvE players who want to play safe and can't really handle change.
...
+some parts of your post on page 7.

Could you please stop being so condescending?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

....
No skill changes in PvE kills PvE. It stagnates and dies.
...

So the goal is to always have an unbalanced game?? If they ever reach the point of perfect balance, the updates will stop and from your point of view that means the game dies, because it stagnates???? I can´t agree with that!

EPO Bot · Apr 19, 2008, 10:56 AM // 10:56

They should nerf ursan into a tank skill with extereme armor and life points but lower damage then ravens and volfens.Then it's still true to traditional bear style and not as godly.

the_jos · Apr 19, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Could you please stop being so condescending?

No, I won't.
Let me explain this a little.
It's a game, ment to be fun. I have good friends who play for fun only.
They are doing ok even on HM and don't know a lot of the game.
They take what I sometimes think as 'bad' team builds to areas but still manage to succeed with a lot of struggle.
I even enjoy playing with them even though it takes a lot longer then for example a H&H team I could put together.

But those are not the players I am talking about.
I am talking about the players who think they know the entire game while they only know how to play a certain set of builds and a certain way.
Even I can be accused of that in an area like DoA. I lack knowledge there to form an alternative team besides the Kaiz build.
But I don't pretend to know everything about the game although it may look that way.
And I won't cry when a certain skill or build gets nerfed, I work around it.

I think more then two years of playing with a lot of people, guild, friends, alliance and pugs made a lot of change in my perspective.
Call it elitism or whatever.
But those (and the part below) are my observations and I think I may have an opinion about that.

Oh and the comment on PvE players not wanting a constantly changing environment?
That's not a comment from me, but from a game dev, just don't remember which one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

And yet those same things can be said in the PvP enviroment. Just look at the BHA example. Instead of adapting or coming up with alternative builds or strategies all they did is whine.(luckily it was never implemented.) Can be said for all FoTM builds. Instead of changing there strategues or trying alternative builds its far easier to whine and cry for a nerf, because its far easier to stay with what some believe is a winning formula.

Anet can make those changes to make PvP fair without hurting PvE, but a majority of the PvPers wont have it. They simple dont care about any collateral damage. As you even pointed out.

Agree but that's because a lot of the PvP players are not better then the average PvE player.
As long as there are no truely overpowered skills and team builds skill balance means very little except when you start looking at the very high end of PvP.
Experience makes a lot more difference in the first parts of PvP when there is no meta with gimmic builds.

A good example is what happened in my old guild slightly more then a year ago.
We wanted to play more PvP.
We as guild tried some basic balanced builds in GvG and did fair.
Then an ex-guildie who joined a PvP guild was asked to help us a little.
We used the same team build with a few slight adjustments.
The thing that changed much more was the way we learned to play.
How to spot certain things and how to use tactics instead of build power.

Then we did some HA with that ex-guildie.
Again balanced build just to learn how to play the maps and see how other scout other teams. Sometimes he just told us when we loaded: "oh, that team, can't win from them".
But also told us what to look for in such teams, like how they operate together. And on less experienced teams what kind of flaws to look for to take advantage.
This improved our gameplay a lot, far more then running gimmic builds.

This is the way I think people should learn to play the game.
Both PvP and PvE. Learn what works and more important, why it works.

In both PvE and PvP you won't hear the experienced players cry when a skill like BHA gets a nerf.
They know it's overpowered and abuse it whenever they can.
It's the inexperienced players who will be very upset. Because they think the skill is doing what it's supposed to do. They are not knowingly abusing it, they are playing it because it works for them.

There are several regular skills that from PvE perspective fall in this set.
BHA is one but there are several more.
They are abused by people knowing the power and others use the skill/build because they know it works.
Take a team like Sabway. Many people use it, but also many have no clue why it works so well. It's a very generic build that can be used in a lot of situations but is not the best in all situations.
I have done things faster with teams with 2 paragon heroes buffing two warrior henchies for example.
Defense from wards instead of a minion wall.

Slightly off-topic but this last line reminds me of something Bhavv said on a vanquish with several human players including myself not long ago:
"I wish you guys were heroes/hench, at least then I can flag you in my wards"

manitoba1073 · Apr 19, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

No, I won't.
Let me explain this a little.
It's a game, ment to be fun. I have good friends who play for fun only.
They are doing ok even on HM and don't know a lot of the game.
They take what I sometimes think as 'bad' team builds to areas but still manage to succeed with a lot of struggle.
I even enjoy playing with them even though it takes a lot longer then for example a H&H team I could put together.

But those are not the players I am talking about.
I am talking about the players who think they know the entire game while they only know how to play a certain set of builds and a certain way.
Even I can be accused of that in an area like DoA. I lack knowledge there to form an alternative team besides the Kaiz build.
But I don't pretend to know everything about the game although it may look that way.
And I won't cry when a certain skill or build gets nerfed, I work around it.

I think more then two years of playing with a lot of people, guild, friends, alliance and pugs made a lot of change in my perspective.
Call it elitism or whatever.
But those (and the part below) are my observations and I think I may have an opinion about that.

Oh and the comment on PvE players not wanting a constantly changing environment?
That's not a comment from me, but from a game dev, just don't remember which one.

Agree but that's because a lot of the PvP players are not better then the average PvE player.
As long as there are no truely overpowered skills and team builds skill balance means very little except when you start looking at the very high end of PvP.
Experience makes a lot more difference in the first parts of PvP when there is no meta with gimmic builds.

A good example is what happened in my old guild slightly more then a year ago.
We wanted to play more PvP.
We as guild tried some basic balanced builds in GvG and did fair.
Then an ex-guildie who joined a PvP guild was asked to help us a little.
We used the same team build with a few slight adjustments.
The thing that changed much more was the way we learned to play.
How to spot certain things and how to use tactics instead of build power.

Then we did some HA with that ex-guildie.
Again balanced build just to learn how to play the maps and see how other scout other teams. Sometimes he just told us when we loaded: "oh, that team, can't win from them".
But also told us what to look for in such teams, like how they operate together. And on less experienced teams what kind of flaws to look for to take advantage.
This improved our gameplay a lot, far more then running gimmic builds.

This is the way I think people should learn to play the game.
Both PvP and PvE. Learn what works and more important, why it works.

In both PvE and PvP you won't hear the experienced players cry when a skill like BHA gets a nerf.
They know it's overpowered and abuse it whenever they can.
It's the inexperienced players who will be very upset. Because they think the skill is doing what it's supposed to do. They are not knowingly abusing it, they are playing it because it works for them.

There are several regular skills that from PvE perspective fall in this set.
BHA is one but there are several more.
They are abused by people knowing the power and others use the skill/build because they know it works.
Take a team like Sabway. Many people use it, but also many have no clue why it works so well. It's a very generic build that can be used in a lot of situations but is not the best in all situations.
I have done things faster with teams with 2 paragon heroes buffing two warrior henchies for example.
Defense from wards instead of a minion wall.

Slightly off-topic but this last line reminds me of something Bhavv said on a vanquish with several human players including myself not long ago:
"I wish you guys were heroes/hench, at least then I can flag you in my wards"

But the point is that BHA is not overpowered but the way its used is and that is a big difference. Take all the whinny UB haters for example. The skill itself isnt overpowered by itself, It doesnt become overpowered till you either add in other things such as consumables or up there numbers in a group. Beating a skill isnt just about being able to counter it. Take retard VG necros for instance. How you deal with them even in the PvP game has nothing to do with skills all that much. By simple changing how one deals with them can even make there own work agaisnt them. Seperating PvP from PvE by allowing people to make PvP chars removed alot of that type of learning skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Just because something can be countered doesn't mean it is balanced.

I wish I had a dollar for every time that has been said on a Guild Wars forum.

And if I had a dollar everytime someone thinks coming up with a different strategy as the same a skill being countered I'd be far richer than you. A skill dont need to be countered to be beat and thats something you should know. Apparently Im giving to much credit nowadays to some I see.

L|S >+>+G+<+< · Apr 19, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

But now, what's the point of caring about PvE balance? Unless you change the Healer's Boon/m monk and Ursanway, there is actually no point in changing skills pve-wise. Because it will only affect ,,elitist ursanhaters'' and it won't affect ,,pr0 ursan winners''.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
pro ursan winner

the only thing good about ursan is that it has made the game way way way too easy now to do anything.

using ursan does NOT make you a winner, it doesn't even require skill ffs.

I don't knock the people using it, especially in doa but come on....get real mate....ursan winner? hahahahahahahaha

~ Dan ~ · Apr 19, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by L|S >+>+G+<+<

the only thing good about ursan is that it has made the game way way way too easy now to do anything.

First off, that is not a good thing.

I wouldn't see it as Ursan made the game easier. Because the normal people wouldn't use it, meaning nothing has become easier for them since Ursan was put into the game.

It's just allowed the average retard to have an efficiency similar to that of a good player with a good bar. It's allowed them to water down any PvE achievement that was respectable.

As i said, i don't view Ursan as making the game easier. I view it as turning idiots into efficient players. That is a different mindset, imo.

Savio · Apr 19, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

And if I had a dollar everytime someone thinks coming up with a different strategy as the same a skill being countered I'd be far richer than you. A skill dont need to be countered to be beat and thats something you should know. Apparently Im giving to much credit nowadays to some I see.

Changing your build to fight against a specific overpowered skill/build is, believe it or not, countering it. Please go back to farming req 7s and stop pretending you know PvP.

Age · Apr 19, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I would say the real problem between PvE and PvP is gold in PvE you need lots of it and in PvP you don't.This was suppose to be competive game if so then it should of stayed with what items were aviable to PvPs on The Char creation screen.that is right no 15 K armours and gold rare weapons or rare in general and doing away will all the gold sinks.

I was having debate whether PvE Monks should res into PvE.I said the other party said no as other can do it for you or there res scrolls which is just another gold sink.I would say there way to many gold sinks in PvE and the excitement and fun to farming and running has long been lost.The community has somewhat dwindled on numbers and it is continuing to go down.% million player have been playing this game since release but not today.The numbers are way down and the quality of players is not the same as you get players with really bad bars because they don't to buy skills.They are saving up for their 15K armours.

This is and rares are the problem with the game as the prices are over inflated to what they are really worth.The problems lie in the fat you can't solo farm the UW like you use to and some other areas Prophets Path.This is problem way to many nerfed areas and the Droks run is one of them.I would say between this and skill balancing Arenanet and NCSoft are going really have to appease their playerbase buy getting rid of them before anyone thinks about buying GW2 despite RTMs and bots.

I would suggest lowering the material request that is need to get 15K armour and making 15k all 5 pieces cost just that 15K no more.PvE needs a complete overhaul not just about skills but everything from the casual players to the hardcore farmers

This isn't what the was suppose to be about way back when I beta tested it it was suppose to be a competive game that gave you opportunities to go out have some fun in say ToA with your guild.t didn't turn out that way at all as to marketing the game for RPgers to come and play as to all the niche items in the game.

To the PvP community don't forget that it is the PvE community that are paying for the server you play on being the majority

I would say that this game needs major fix after GW 2 comes out so other can complete their goals and I still have several and there wasn't suppose to be titles.

Savio · Apr 19, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Gold has nothing to do with why bad players are bad; it has nothing to do with this thread either.

Magikarp · Apr 19, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would say the real problem between PvE and PvP is gold in PvE you need lots of it and in PvP you don't.This was suppose to be competive game if so then it should of stayed with what items were aviable to PvPs on The Char creation screen.that is right no 15 K armours and gold rare weapons or rare in general and doing away will all the gold sinks.

I was having debate whether PvE Monks should res into PvE.I said the other party said no as other can do it for you or there res scrolls which is just another gold sink.I would say there way to many gold sinks in PvE and the excitement and fun to farming and running has long been lost.The community has somewhat dwindled on numbers and it is continuing to go down.% million player have been playing this game since release but not today.The numbers are way down and the quality of players is not the same as you get players with really bad bars because they don't to buy skills.They are saving up for their 15K armours.

This is and rares are the problem with the game as the prices are over inflated to what they are really worth.The problems lie in the fat you can't solo farm the UW like you use to and some other areas Prophets Path.This is problem way to many nerfed areas and the Droks run is one of them.I would say between this and skill balancing Arenanet and NCSoft are going really have to appease their playerbase buy getting rid of them before anyone thinks about buying GW2 despite RTMs and bots.

I would suggest lowering the material request that is need to get 15K armour and making 15k all 5 pieces cost just that 15K no more.PvE needs a complete overhaul not just about skills but everything from the casual players to the hardcore farmers

This isn't what the was suppose to be about way back when I beta tested it it was suppose to be a competive game that gave you opportunities to go out have some fun in say ToA with your guild.t didn't turn out that way at all as to marketing the game for RPgers to come and play as to all the niche items in the game.

To the PvP community don't forget that it is the PvE community that are paying for the server you play on being the majority

I would say that this game needs major fix after GW 2 comes out so other can complete their goals and I still have several and there wasn't suppose to be titles.

whoa whoa whoa...

this is all way off subject man.. vanity has nothing to do with balance. just because some people choose to use res scrolls, doesnt mean the skills on their bars are ... whatever.. they arent synonymous at all.

if you'd like to argue that consumables are yet another form of unbalanced towards pve, then thats a different story.. but as far as open-face, actual skill balancing in both pve and pvp goes, this post is a little... a lot off topic.

Age · Apr 19, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

whoa whoa whoa...

this is all way off subject man.. vanity has nothing to do with balance. just because some people choose to use res scrolls, doesnt mean the skills on their bars are ... whatever.. they arent synonymous at all.

if you'd like to argue that consumables are yet another form of unbalanced towards pve, then thats a different story.. but as far as open-face, actual skill balancing in both pve and pvp goes, this post is a little... a lot off topic.

Well.It does in way as to most think about farming and how skill balances are going to affect them and right now the Sin and Possibly paragon is the most affected.There is also talk about GW 2 in this thread.

Quote:

Orignally Posted by Savio
Gold has nothing to do with why bad players are bad; it has nothing to do with this thread either.

Yes it does as how to you get skills in the game by buying them and it get up there at 1K with 1 skill point.I see other players getting skill from hero skill trainers and the quality of isn't that great.

Magikarp · Apr 19, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Well.It does in way as to most think about farming and how skill balances are going to affect them and right now the Sin and Possibly paragon is the most affected.There is also talk about GW 2 in this thread.

Yes it does as how to you get skills in the game by buying them and it get up there at 1K with 1 skill point.I see other players getting skill from hero skill trainers and the quality of isn't that great.

farming really isn't a precedent concern tbh.. balances shouldn't reflect that form of gameplay, and even i draw the line there....

also, while i agree the casual player with no assistance from an outside source or better player would have a harder time making money for skills, and simply choosing bad skills, thats also not really a factor that should be involved during the balanced of the said skills, seeing as the money to buy them, and their choices arent codependent.

on the other hand...

you could argue that the massive sweeping nerfs have caused a tremendous amount of skills to be thrown into the junk pile, making it easier for a new player to get more and more crappy skills, seeing as the "good" bin is so limited, and usually requires all 4 games to even have a decent set of "good" skills to choose from...

in that case... yes... i do agree. in your post's case.. no.. i still think you're off topic bud.

Carinae · Apr 19, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Yes it does as how to you get skills in the game by buying them and it get up there at 1K with 1 skill point.I see other players getting skill from hero skill trainers and the quality of isn't that great.

You can get enough gold to unlock your entire primary AND favorite secondary by just playing the game. Missions, Quests, HM Missions, Vanquishing, etc, etc, etc....

Bad players are bad because they are ignorant, either willingly or unknowingly or both.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

So the goal is to always have an unbalanced game?? If they ever reach the point of perfect balance, the updates will stop and from your point of view that means the game dies, because it stagnates???? I can´t agree with that!

Perfect balance is an illusion. It does not exist. Guild Wars is not Diablo.

manitoba1073 · Apr 20, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Changing your build to fight against a specific overpowered skill/build is, believe it or not, countering it. Please go back to farming req 7s and stop pretending you know PvP.

No its omg 1 minute gasp ready for it. strategy. oh ahhh. please go back to school and stop pretending you know anything at all.

Its also called being prepeared.

Just because you cant believe official statement or even the fact that a picture was even posted 3 weeks before those threads shows how little you know.

arsie · Apr 20, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

I believe that the most elegant solution to seperate the buffing and nerfing between PvE and PvP is to have different maximum levels for attribute point allocation.

Allow characters to have more than 200 attribute points and raise the maximum allocation to an attribute line to 16-20 (or whatever). When a player enters a PvP arena, his attribute points drop to 200 and has the current 12-16 maximum level. This allows Anet to buff and nerf skills at various attribute break points.

Of course, there are other issues with PvE that needs addressing. Someone here once said that balancing PvP is about balancing skills, while balancing PvE is about balancing professions, and I believe that is what is lacking.

I would hope that by allowing skills in PvE to go up to attribute point 16-20 or whatever, that completely imbalanced skills like Save Yourselves! and Ursan's Blessing, etc, can be toned down, because the players now have 2000 other skills to choose from.

There is probably a lot that can be said about making high end PvE more like high end PvP. Which is to say that the current methods of making things harder, such as adding more armor, speed, quantities and regens to the monsters should give way to making monster groups more balanced and the AI smarter. Whether that is possible is another thing altogether.

The ideas that work great in GvG simply does not work when you're being pounded by 15x level 28 guys of the same profession. AoE offence, AoE defence and AoE debuffs ends up being the only viable choice, and that leads to it being c-spacing. No wonder PvP players look down on PvE players, Anet has kept PvEers in a special school for the people with learning disabilities.

Magikarp · Apr 20, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

im not a mod, but lets cool it with the direct flaming (myself included). theres no need for it for a serious discussion like this...

Avarre · Apr 20, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No its omg 1 minute gasp ready for it. strategy. oh ahhh. please go back to school and stop pretending you know anything at all.

Changing your build to give you a different strategy against a known enemy is generally referred to as 'buildwars', and is the most basic form of countering.

Let me expand this; there are hard counters and soft counters. A soft counter is a skill that can be used to deal with a variety of enemy skills. An example is Diversion or Distracting Shot. These skills are commonly found in balanced builds as they are quite versatile. A hard counter is a skill that is useless in most battles but will completely wreck someone using a specific other skill. An example is Ignorance against Signet Mesmers, or Frigid Armor against Searing Flames.

Almost every skill has a hard counter to it. Buildwars, or changing one's build to deal with what you're going to face, usually involves adding hard counters against the enemy's build so as to be most effectively prepared for it, while impairing the ability to fight other builds not covered. A general example would be to run nrtranq against a hexway team.

Long story short, speccing your build against something is countering. It does not mean what you just countered with a rock vs scissors build was balanced.

To give a practical example, with [sad] we ran 5-hex. This build is ridiculously broken as most people who have fought it will agree. Our opponent, WASD, ran 2 LoD, 1 Divert Hexes, 2 HEV mesmers with shatter hex, and most chars with Hex Breaker. They won, does that make 5-hex not broken?

In summary, you are wrong Manitoba. Off you go.

Winterclaw · Apr 20, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Since we are on the subject of countering, why doesn't anet occasionally try to buff the hard and soft counters to some skills instead of nerfing those skills? For example making vocal minority and well of silence more attractive to fight imbagons.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 20, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Since we are on the subject of countering, why doesn't anet occasionally try to buff the hard and soft counters to some skills instead of nerfing those skills? For example making vocal minority and well of silence more attractive to fight imbagons.

Because no matter what you do to those, they only work if you go against massed paragons. In the 75% of matches where you don't, that slot is completely useless.

Second, if a hard counter to your build exists, you can bet like hell you're bringing a counter of some kind to it - in the case of paraspike, it's expel hexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Its also called being prepeared.

Pearing beforehand? What if I'm not hungry, or if my pear isn't ripe? You should really consider the current meta when proposing fruit-based solutions.