Curse

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Farming is not all PvE is about and should have no weight in balance discussion. What one person does alone to get money should have no bearing on competitive team play, which is what this game is supposed to be about.

I agree, making the PvE skills even stronger would be a terrible thing. I don't want to see it happen but what other choice does Anet have to add variety to PvE? I mean, look at this:

Is THIS how the game is going to be from now on? For every monthly now we get two weeks of temporary changes for the GvG and HB ATs? So for half the month we have some kind of balance the other half we don't? That statement says "we don't want to anger PvE players". To make PvE players angry you nerf skills, which is why this change is temporary so after two weeks they can all be happy again. Yet when you look at those skill changes there is literally nothing that would dramatically affect PvE gameplay enough to warrant a skill reversal, but we're getting one anyway.

Anet's message is clear from that statement. They want PvErs to be happy which can only be achieve in numbers going up, or recharges, energy and cast times reduced. Their only option then is to buff PvE only skills so when we get these future temporary updates to PvX skills it really doesn't affect the PvE crowd too much.

im just as frustrated as you, or anyone else with the state of the game right now, but NO, i totally disagree with the way they've handled this update. there are better solutions, like the one i mentioned. rework old skill to get them back in the game like Wastrels, Primal, Ray, ect....

then "balance" whatever pvp ales, and see where the creativity of the community takes us.

imho its better than what we have now..

this would get both pve and pvp skill bars thinking...

quickmonty · Apr 18, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

As a PvE player I have to get my two cents in.

Let me say first that i understand what is being said by the PvP'ers (most of them ... not the PvE haters). I don't hate PvP'ers and realize that is the part of the game that they like. Pleasing both sides of the camp is virtually impossible as things are now, and Jr has some intersting ideas that might address the PvP vs PvE players.

The only time I've ever used Ursan was during the quest when you have to use it. I no longer care about farming a lot of gold for 'goodies' (although I once did). I like a challenge in PvE and have always worked on new builds for all my characters. Some work and some don't. Currently, about the only thing left for me in PvE is maxing titles. This can be a long (and sometimes boring) effort. I don't want to spend and overly long time having to adjust my build and the build of three heroes once a week. Up until this most recent 'skill balance' I took the changes in skills with a grain of salt. Adjust, adapt and continue. This recent update was the first that really upset me. It hit my rit hard. I know one person doesn't matter but if this kind of thing is any indication of what will be in GW2 it's not a good selling point to me.

A long time ago I started a thread suggesting a split of PvE and PvP and was thoroughly trounced by the Guru population. The more time passes, the more that such a split seems the only way to keep both camps happy.

I'd like to say more, but my lunch break is over. Hope I got my main points across.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

3 seconds extra on splinter weapon hit your rit hard?

You obviously didn't read all the skill changes or you woudn't have made such a stupid statement. Plus, I don't use splinter weapon when I H/H

Dr Strangelove · Apr 18, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

3 seconds extra on splinter weapon hit your rit hard?

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

i would venture to say that the comment Quick made possibly referred to DPS, FomF, or/ancestors too..

regardless, compromise will always have to be made to some extent, but it seems like almost no one is happy about this update in general. some neutral, but in general, it seems like the consensus is overall dissatisfied with the stale meta, lack of decent skills to choose from, and general lack of creativity/abuse of skills in both pve and pvp...

C2K · Apr 18, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

This recent update was the first that really upset me. It hit my rit hard. .

Can you enlighten me? I don't see how rit is that much worse than before the update. Sure Splinter Weapon and Ancestors Rage got hit, but my Hero Rit is still strong enough to be on my team with both skills. Death Pact is finally near being balanced and FomF was just retarded with no recharge. And if your team is dying that many times to where you need those res skills to keep them afloat, then the build of the team sucks anyway and needs a reform. And all of these nerfs are nowhere near as significant or damaging as the Paragon nerfs that were meant to make Motigon scarce in the next MAT.(which I believe is the true reason why Anet made that statement, because motigons are/were hot in PvE)

Now, if Guild Battle NPCs play a significant role when considering a Rit in PvE, then ok, the rit got destroyed in this update and all complaints are valid in regards to it.

Toxage · Apr 18, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

You could have just written that.

You need to learn to use more concise writing.

I feel that this suggestion is horrible. Races should NOT get special abilities.

Let's take a look at how World of Warcraft's racials turned out...

If you want to be a Horde Main Tank you must roll a tauren for the stamina boost.

If you want to PvP as a warrior on horde you must be an orc for stun resist.

If you want to PvP as a warrior on alliance you must gnome for escape artist.

Simply put racials are a horrible idea, racials create better races for certain aspects. A race should never be better than another at PvE or PvP all races should be equally as good. I don't want to lose to someone because I didn't roll X race for Y racial and they did.

Posting this again, because no one seemed to address the problems associated with racial abilities.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

Posting this again, because no one seemed to address the problems associated with racial abilities.

because the average person knows how awful racial traits are to begin with.

Toxage · Apr 18, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

because the average person knows how awful racial traits are to begin with.

Then why did someone make a thread suggesting them?

Fay Vert · Apr 18, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

In PvP "balance" terms it doesn't actually matter what you do to skills, the teams will have equal access to them and so are perfectly balanced. So what we are really talking about is changes to the meta. ANet are not balancing skills in PvP because one side is favoured, they are changing the type of game that is played. So the goal of PvP balance should be to increase the variety of builds that players could adopt, and in this regard ANet have failed totally, PvP versatility is extremely small. Ironically, ANet seem far more concerned with the (PvE) NPCs at VoD

In PvE, its important to balance skills for the same reason, to encourage diversity in play. This is a bit better in PvE, but there are still imbalanced builds that tend to be run. The problem is, ANet made a rod for their own back by making some of the elite areas too hard for most players, so when Ursan comes along, the masses flock to it. As far as "balance" goes, its impossible to balance PvE simply because you will always bring a build along to defeat what you know is in that area. ANet shouldn't even think about balancing in this respect, so let people have their fun, the one thing ANet can do to really help things here is to buff the thousand useless skills in the game, only when this is done can they think about taking Ursan, Splinter Barrage etc off of people.

The problem then is how do ANet alter skills to make it fun in PvE while keeping the meta that they want in PvP? Well it's obvious, they can't. The only way is to have the game styles/skill combos differnent. I can think of three approaches. The first is to have PvE only skills, I think ANet should look at moving a lot of skills over to this category, this will allow them to buff the thousand useless skills. Second, they can run PvP under a "tournament" environmental effect that they can use to change the effect of certain skills (eg splinter). Finally, they can enforce the meta by having a skill subset mechanism such as sealed deck player.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

Then why did someone make a thread suggesting them?

the idea was "skill balances moving forward-pve/pvp", and that was one of the ideas, albeit, and no offense to that poster personally, a bad idea. we're talking about something altogether different now concerning balance.

R.Shayne · Apr 18, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Farming is not all PvE is about and should have no weight in balance discussion. What one person does alone to get money should have no bearing on competitive team play, which is what this game is supposed to be about.

If the game was only about competitive team play then ANET sure invested a lot of time (money) in 98% game that is not related to pvp. Competitive team play may be what Anet is pushing but it seems that their customer base had other ideals.

Which do you think is the minority here? PvP only, Farmers, Traders, or Casual players. Anet knows but they are not saying, why not have a poll on these forums to see a small sampling of the numbers.

Sab · Apr 18, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

3 seconds extra on splinter weapon hit your rit hard?

Exactly what I was about to say. Ancestors' is basically the same, and you shouldn't be using Death Pact/Flesh often enough for those changes to matter.

After every update there's a huge amount of knee-jerk, overreactions from players whose favourite classes have been hit. In the long run, what's changed? Rits are as viable as before, I'm pretty sure a Rit after this update can do exactly the same as a Rit before the update.

quickmonty, if you can explain why this update "hit your rit hard", then maybe there's something worth discussing.

JR · Apr 18, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

Posting this again, because no one seemed to address the problems associated with racial abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

To reiterate what has already been said multiple times, the racial traits do not need to favor a particular class. They could be additional armor against types of damage, cast time reductions, hex/condition duration reduction, speed increase, base armor increase, base HP increase... People apparently can't think any deeper into the idea than the examples I posted, which i'll admit weren't great.

That didn't address your problem?

Toxage · Apr 18, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

That didn't address your problem?

Adding racials ends up benefiting one class more than another.

One of your examples base HP increase has been used in World Of Warcraft. This racial creates problems for warriors. Tauren tanks have more stamina than Orc or Undead warriors, which prevents them from MTing.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 18, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

Adding racials ends up benefiting one class more than another.

One of your examples base HP increase has been used in World Of Warcraft. This racial creates problems for warriors. Tauren tanks have more stamina than Orc or Undead warriors, which prevents them from MTing.

Just because WoW sucked at it doesn't mean every other game should abandon the idea of different races. The D&D races, for example, are quite well done, although they don't go well with the PvE/PvP split that JR was referring to.

cyvil · Apr 18, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Finally, they can enforce the meta by having a skill subset mechanism such as sealed deck player.

I do not know PvP, but instead of an entire "sealed deck," could they just insert a wildcard skill? I guess this might be the equivalent of a PvE skill, but the player does not get to choose it. Rather, AI could choose the skill based upon the skills packed on the other side. If the other side included 6 paragons and two monks, your side would get a skills that causes problems for shouts and enchants. Facing 8 R/D? You get a skill that crushes stances.

Probably a bad idea, my thought was that you would still be able to customize most of a skill bar, and the effectiveness of the "PvP" only skill would scale with the variety of the opposing team (i.e. 8 paragons, very effective. Variety of foes would result in a heavy mix of the PvP only skills that each would be effective against a limited number of opponents). I wouldn't think it would take too many general skills to shut down most gimicky teams, and you could count on having a reasonable chance to have the right skill on your bar, when entering an arena.

Master Knightfall · Apr 18, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

Adding racials ends up benefiting one class more than another.

One of your examples base HP increase has been used in World Of Warcraft. This racial creates problems for warriors. Tauren tanks have more stamina than Orc or Undead warriors, which prevents them from MTing.

Yup you are correct Toxage and that's why I said the racial abilities will be nothing more cosmetic than picking between a male and female. No bonus attributes for races. Anet doesn't need to add even more balance problems to the ones that already exist. You can look like a Charr, but, you won't be any better than looking like a Norn.

JR · Apr 18, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

It's worth noting that there are *already* racial traits planned, such as the Norn ability to use bear form. An awful lot of people seem to be ignoring that.

R.Shayne · Apr 18, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

Simply put racials are a horrible idea, racials create better races for certain aspects. A race should never be better than another at PvE or PvP all races should be equally as good. I don't want to lose to someone because I didn't roll X race for Y racial and they did.

Toxage, thanks for the info on WoW, never played it so have no clue how it works. I have to agree I don't want see a bunch of Norn Warriors walking around and party refusing to let Human Warriors into the party.

I still remember when Factions first came out was doing Tahnnakai Temple mission. Was fixing my inventory and watching the chat channel and seeing a trend, "GLF More for Mission - NO SINS" Good thing I don't pug because as a sin would have never found a group. With racial traits and ANET pass example of poor balance how soon until you see "GLF more for mission - No human warriors"

lyra_song · Apr 18, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

It's worth noting that there are *already* racial traits planned, such as the Norn ability to use bear form. An awful lot of people seem to be ignoring that.

I dont think they're ignoring it as much as theyre saying its a bad idea. ;p