Curse

Alex the Great · May 10, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

this is the smartest thread posted in about a month

/throws away sarcastic anti-ursan one-liners

okashii · May 10, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Ursan Blessing can be useful:

when I was doing Catacombs of Kathandrax over and over with H/H to get a Emerald Blade it enabled me <with a proper anti fire setup> to easily run to that dungeon from Doomlore, skipping whole Burning Forest and half of lvl2 of the dungeon

and using Ursan and spirits as a E/Rt I farmed myself a Rajazan's Fervor (green caster sword) because I didnt find any on sale

many ppl think ursan is soooo much overpowered but its only powerful on a high rank and with a 4-5 other ursans that still need 2-3 HB monks to survive :P

Abedeus · May 10, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Uhm. That's the problem - it's powerful only on high rank, so you need to grind your ass on it. And to get into ursan group, you must be one of 5 or 6 ursans or monks. Once I tried to replace ursan with elementalist. Sure, dmg was bigger... But I couldn't spam knockdown like ursans, couldn't deal dmg so fast and without energy loss like them and I didn't tank ;o

Jack of All Trades = bad, just bad for any game. It's like someone would put a BFG in Counter Strike or +10000 dmg shotgun to WoW.

okashii · May 10, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

It's like someone would put a BFG in Counter Strike

actually the beam from a BFG has a slow travel time so as a weapon it doesnt pass the "7headshots in under a minute" rule...

whoops...thats a bit off topic

Th Fooster · May 10, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

complexity? do you even know what that word means?

i will admit that Ursan is one way to play the game.
i will never admit that it is a complex way to play the game.

This is what ursan is:

this guy and others that share his point of view.. I have put out a chalenge in the fastest times thread anyone that can beat our HM UW clear time
(currently 29 minutes) and provides more than one source of proof, will recieve 10 k frem me to everyone in that team.
now we use ursan BUT I DARE you to pull off what we do! i dare you! i kow, you wil respond to this by syain "i could if i wanted too but[insert excuse here]" but we use 2 ursans. and to this day there are very few guilds that have come even close to pulling off the way we operate.

before you assume ALL ursan builds are easy go here...http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10277528

i garantee you you will fail the first few time and it will take you at least a month before you even get anywhere near those times and that is th OLD version... the easiest one we play!
wh have even more advanced tactics we do now but have not posted them

Dr Strangelove · May 10, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Ursan is simply Guild Wars' cheat code.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

THIS.

No one at ANet is ever going to admit it, but that is precisely what Ursan is.

Remember I'm a mesmer, how do I complete The Deep? That was posted only eight short months ago.

Remember the crying about Mallyx, and how he could only be killed with a glitch, and how the devs must have used the then-unreleased PvE skills to beat him a "legit" way? Mallyx with your heros happened only one month after the above thread.

Guild Wars is over. Ursan has killed it.

The point of Ursan is to make everything in Guild Wars doable, so that everyone can have a full Hall of Monuments and a reason to buy Guild Wars 2. And when Ursan blows away all PvE grind, ANet will simply have to extend grind to keep the players invested, or attract bored Ursanites with shiny toys - weapon skins, tonics, emotes, titles...

Oh, wait.

And the biggest kicker? With ANet refusing to change Ursan in any way and staying silent on the matter, we effectively have our confirmation. Each day of ANet inaction legitimizes Ursan even further. Now, if Ursan ever does see any sort of change, we'll see the same reaction as when Rockmolders and HoD swords were "fixed:" people will complain because the inaction makes them feel entitled to hold on to the original version.

If everything ANet has done in Guild Wars is indeed a learning experience for future games, as they've claimed, I really hope this part of it does not slip by come GW2 design time.

Excellent post, everyone should read this.

My biggest issue with Ursan is that it's changed the objectives of Guild Wars. For most people, the game is no longer about making fun builds, playing as a team, making friends, and thinking your way through encounters. Ursan removes the thought and fun from this part of the game, because the correct answer is always "roll a bear".

Most of the pro-ursan folks like it because "it lets them get things done". That would be a nice sentiment if we were digging ditches and wanted to get it over with, but this is a video game, it should be fun to play. The most fun I've ever had in Guild Wars was putting together team builds with guildies to clear UW, FoW, The Deep, and Urgoz. At the time, the rewards were less than they are now, but they were actually fun. By contrast, I've done UW ursan and FoW a couple time with alliance people, and they're not fun at all. Yes, I get more shiny trinkets faster, but they're meaningless as nothing of myself really went into them. Guild Wars pve is now focused more on the carrot at the end of the stick than the journey to get the reward.

Th Fooster · May 10, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

i still havent seen any of you people actualy try the team build posten in the link above.... yet you all have these "wise insights"

Dr Strangelove · May 10, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Th Fooster

i still havent seen any of you people actualy try the team build posten in the link above.... yet you all have these "wise insights"

There's a problem with a game when it changes from "Using the tools we have available, how can we complete the hardest area in the game?" to "Using very simple tools, how can we completely curbstomp the hardest area in the game so we can get our cheese more quickly?".

Th Fooster · May 10, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

There's a problem with a game when it changes from "Using the tools we have available, how can we complete the hardest area in the game?" to "Using very simple tools, how can we completely curbstomp the hardest area in the game so we can get our cheese more quickly?".

exactly! the complexity is a result of teh desire to sped clear... speed clear to open more chests...=more money we did not complicate it just for teh sake of complicating something, our build eveolved to that over time because we enjoy only using 1 con set to clear uw!

so what exactl is the problem your describing?? narrow it down.....
whats the problem with opening a chest faster? and where do we neglect to use the tools available as you say? i run no ursan too and do the same thing

however.. If you call UW the hardest area in the game... then its obvious you tried our build and FAILED and so you bash it as a bad thing

lyra_song · May 10, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Th Fooster

this guy and others that share his point of view.. I have put out a chalenge in the fastest times thread anyone that can beat our HM UW clear time
(currently 29 minutes) and provides more than one source of proof, will recieve 10 k frem me to everyone in that team.
now we use ursan BUT I DARE you to pull off what we do! i dare you! i kow, you wil respond to this by syain "i could if i wanted too but[insert excuse here]" but we use 2 ursans. and to this day there are very few guilds that have come even close to pulling off the way we operate.

before you assume ALL ursan builds are easy go here...http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10277528

i garantee you you will fail the first few time and it will take you at least a month before you even get anywhere near those times and that is th OLD version... the easiest one we play!
wh have even more advanced tactics we do now but have not posted them

Being the most advanced ursan group is like saying youre the smartest person in the special olympics.

Ursan is Guild Wars simplified.

Yes you can add complex tactics to it, and im sure good and better players can implement it in cool new ways.

But the point remains the same, Ursan Blessing makes it easy. It makes it simpler.

And the motivating factor is speed and greed. Simple.

Zehnchu · May 10, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Th Fooster

now we use ursan BUT I DARE you to pull off what we do!

I don’t know whether to cry or laugh or just do both at the same time.

Guess this is what happens when parents let their kids do UB.

lyra_song · May 10, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I will compare Ursan to IWAY.

The original versions of IWAY were very very simple, but as the IWAY build kept getting nerfed, new and better versions of iway, using more complex tactics evolved.

Ursan has not been nerfed, so the build has yet to evolve and reach complexity or balance vs the other skills in the game. Its never been adjusted, never been changed.

Its still in its infancy as a team build and even you "complex" tactics are still just, at the bottom it all, variations of tank/spank.

Its like this.

I drive a Manual Car. You drive an Automatic car. I drive the car. You let the car drive you.

Knight O Cydonia · May 10, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

People bash Ursan because they can. I don't see why people get in to such a state about it when there is always a 'cheap' workaround to PvE play. 'Cheap' being an efficient or exploitative method of succeeding (e.g. the book trick/gear trick back in 2005.)

There are guilds (including mine) who often refuse to use Ursan but will happily use "TNTF" and "Save Yourselves" Paragons. Using imbagons doesn't make you a genius, unique or better than other players - you're just abusing the next most efficient method of wiping PvE.

Elitism has always existed and people try to maintain their elite status by not using common Ursan and make a point of shouting "FAIL" whenever they see someone with an UB bar on a screenshot. They feel the need to proclaim their disgust so as to appear superior.

I don't care about prejudices and what others think. It doesn't matter now many ectos you have, you're a gold-buying, lowballing scammer to someone else. It doesn't matter how much fame you have, you're a HA fame-farming IWAY scrub to someone else. It doesn't matter how many maxed titles you have, you're a PvE carebear in some people's eyes.

The point being, don't give a monkeys what others think and go mash buttons with Ursan if it makes you happy.

^ The truth

Why do people get so upset about Ursan? If you don't like it, don't use it. Other people using it doesn't affect your game so why moan?

Antheus · May 10, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

PvE Ursan = PvP toucher

Good for loot = good for balth faction farming

Yet they both "phail" in same way. It just depends on the result one wants.

But unlike pvp, where toucher could only exist due to meta and boon prot, which couldn't outheal it, the ZB prot killed it.

In PvE, nothing changes, so Ursan remains unbalanced. Whether balance matters in PvE or not (depends on person) - I don't believe many would go praising the greatest RA touchers ever. Would they?

kostolomac · May 10, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by englitdaudelin

I know forums don't lend themselves to nuanced discussions much, what with people having the attention spans of crack-addled gerbils, all whanging away for the snippiest one-line throwaway +1 crack possible.

But lines like this, from another thread, irk the unholy bejeezus out of me:
"Ursan is the only skill used in PvE now anyways..."

So, let's parse. Let's deconstruct. My first option in reading this is, "hey another sarcastic comment about the overuse of Ursan. But s/he can't REALLY believe that...right?"

My second possible reading: "S/He really believes this." (based on reading the ToA, DoA, Ring of Fire Spams, this might not be a bad assumption.

This kind of oversimplifying elitism (I.E. I'm better than you because I don't use Ursan (because I can't be bothered to max out my title, because I was leet without Ursan (because I'm expressing the gamer version of indie rock cred))) is poisoning forums, posts, and even in-game chats.

Please, please, please: at least pay lip service to the complexities of playstyles running around this game, not just the simple differences between PvP and PvE and Ursan and not. I (still) play every day, on rangers and rits, mesmers and monks, paragons and necros. I'm working to max Ursan. I use Ursan with friends in HM. I use a regular bar in HM (yes, on a non-monk toon). I Ursan in NM for grins. I sell, I buy. I feel guilty about playing Ursan. I feel guilty about not maxing my Ursan. I sneer at rank 2 Ursans trying to hop in my group for FoW--even at my own R2 Ursans. I have 35 skill bars for a ranger that don't involve the bear. I like to move quickly. I like to take my time and fight epic battles. I hate redoing zones. I love redoing zones. I hate being asked to be Ursan. I feel pleased when my R8 Ursan's invited to join groups. I get annoyed at guildmates who tell me to "hide your rank." I hide my rank. I get annoyed at being asked to do Ursan so another guildie can get a dungeon. I look for guildies to help do dungeons--using Ursan.

Do I get bored playing Ursan? Sometimes. So...easy solution: I don't play Ursan. But do I also admit that Ursan's made the game quicker, without costing fun? Damn straight. I was in a number of PuG and Guild Groups that failed various dungeons, wiped in FoW, couldn't Clear The Chamber...and then came Ursan. How many times does someone need to try before a shortcut looks damned appealing?

When we jumped into HM, the margins of error shrank a little: 60% DP sends you home. HM in UW or FoW, and you go home on the first wipe. There became less room for monks still learning their craft. Less room for a resto rit with fragile spirits. Less room for a mesmer running a bar that 60% of the gamers can't understand. Ursan expands that margin of error. Armor and health bonuses let you clip a couple of extra aatxes aggro bubbles by accident. Really, do we find extra "wiggle room" such a bad thing? As a monk, leet as you are, isn't it nice to heal a player who's got some higher armor? As a tank, leet as you are, isn't it nice to have the health?

I won't argue that Ursan's a great thing "for the game." On a deep, philosophical level--one concerned with the game, with developing a community, with developing skill, with problem-solving and build-developing--I can't argue that. Ursan made the game one where thinking and build synthesis has gone out the window.

But Ursan's a great thing "for the player." For the average player, for the hella-good player, for the noob and the newb and the newbie. I don't have to spend hours looking for a group that accepts an extra ranger, or rit, or mes. I don't have to convince people that paras are good, or rits can too heal. People who know tons about the game don't need to wait to find more people who know tons about the game--they can direct a group of compliant, clueless bears through a HM vanquish--and come out SUCCESSFUL--and OMG! Maybe even have a little fun. Maybe get a gold. Map an area. Work on a title (let's please not start that argument: some want a title, some don't, it's one of the many complexities of this huge game). Get an ecto, or shard, or gem drop.

Sorry, but I have kids, and a life, and a game to play. I don't want to spend hours forming a party--except for those days when I do. I don't love Ursan--except for when it helps me build my bank, my HoM, my small pile of ecto, my friendships with guildies. I get bored with it--except when I'm looking at the monsters and the art and the scenery, not my skill bar. This isn't hypocrisy, it's complexity. Get used to it.

So this is my request: at least pay lip service to the possibility that the skill(s) you bash, that the playstyle you disparage--whatever skills, whatever playstyle, ANY skills, ANY playstyle--is only ONE of many skills, many ways, we all play this game. Admit the complexities of using Ursan, the ambivalence you feel about the skill and how fast it's let you through things, the weird indie ethos of "I refuse to use something that commonplace," and the similarly weird ethos of "I refuse to learn a full 8-skill bar," and the similarly weird ethos of "you're just an elitist PvPer" and everything in between.

Respect the variety of things we all might do, any given day, in the game.

/complexity and ambiguity.

This guy speaks the truth. IMO the only thing UB changed is that it lowered the line between good and average players. When I want a real challenge in Guild Wars i visit heroes' ascent. Currently the only thing i did with UB was a NM fow run. And i had fun , not because the enemies dropped dead like flies , it's because i enjoyed the scenery , chatting with people and having a good time.

bhavv · May 10, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight O Cydonia

^ The truth

Why do people get so upset about Ursan? If you don't like it, don't use it. Other people using it doesn't affect your game so why moan?

It affects everyone that plays elite areas.

90% of players using Ursan = less people to play with with real builds.

Sorry, but finding a non Ursan group for elite areas nowadays is a joke. Also, hard mode isnt supposed to be as easy as Ursan makes it, it is meant to be hard.

But you should all know by now that Anet simply doesnt care about how broken their game is, they think everything is fine regardless of how many people complain.

People that enjoy Ursan are the same as people that enjoyed IWAY.

kostolomac · May 10, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

PvE in Guild Wars was broken way before ursan.

byteme! · May 10, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

GW1 is near it's end...it's a good time to let the new players experience and achieve the things we veterans have been spoiled with for the last 3 years. I mean really...who gives a damn? Let them fill their HoM for GW2. I think it's a nice gesture by Anet to the casual and the new. But maybe that's just me. Either way I don't give a crap.

Esan · May 10, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Sorry, but finding a non Ursan PUG for elite areas nowadays is a joke.

Fixed that for you.

If you can't put together a non-Ursan group even with friends/guildmates/alliancemates, then maybe you should find better circles to run in.

(Why would you want a group anyway? Nearly everything is doable with heroes and hench, and this includes every dungeon in HM, all vanquishing, and all but one mission in HM. The notable exceptions are the elite missions and godzones, but if you are looking for groups for them, chances are you are a farmer in which case complaining about Ursan is just hypocrisy.)

~ Dan ~ · May 11, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Th Fooster

this guy and others that share his point of view.. I have put out a chalenge in the fastest times thread anyone that can beat our HM UW clear time
(currently 29 minutes) and provides more than one source of proof, will recieve 10 k frem me to everyone in that team.
now we use ursan *post tails off...*

Bolded. Pay attention. You use Ursan, so how does this HM time seem at all respectable? RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing idiot. Not to mention you and your petty wannabe-elite-guild didn't even make the build, and had to use that guide you linked to.

Oh, and 10k for each person? Really, if all you can offer is that much - there really is no importance in this challenge.

/sigh. You fail more than the OP.

P.S.

Quote:

Guild: Blood Gods Wrath

lol

whoru?