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Old May 10, 2008, 03:55 AM // 03:55   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaek
actually theres plenty of reason to keep playing a game
good gameplay and playin wit other ppl bein 2 of the better reasons

unfortunately, the reason that u mention that makes ppl want to play more,
is far from a good reason
when titles first came out, i was like yay sumptin to work towards
until i found myself getting titles jus for the sake of getting em
it became boring and tiresome

sure u feel good once u achieve it or obtain it
but y cant u feel good by havin a fun time playin all the time?
(not jus after u achieve sumptin big)

im not sayin that there shouldnt be a challenge
but the challenge needs to be fun, not a grind
grinding is nuthin more than the "nicotine" or "crack" of gaming
Well... um, I don't think you really read my post. That was my whole point, that in an MMOG you interact with other people. And I didn't give a reason for continuing to play, only that if everything was obtainable in the time amount they specified there wouldn't be something for the "more then casual" players. And I didn't mention anything about grind. Not sure where you are really coming from since I didn't say any of that.

In reference to the original point of the thread though, I've been reading the back and forth arguements, probable scenarios, and seeing how people think this will be played out. Regina has been in this thread a lot today and I believe it's to gather player reaction (of course this is only my assumption). So maybe it was quite the good thing for Anet to announce this and keeping the announcement vague enough prior to implementing instead of the other announcement yesterday which-will-not-be-named that was detailed. Gauge the community reaction, maybe even gather a few ideas, address them before they seperate them out any concerns we are having. Again, pure assumption on my part.
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Old May 10, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17   #322
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Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
Kinda has me wondering...does this mean that all the skills are eternally gonna remain as they are now, in PvE? Or can the PvE version be nerfed, while the PvP version is unchanged? Reason I ask is because of a certain few skills...namely Protective Spirit, which Izzy's said hasn't been nerfed because it's a key skill in PvP.
I was thinking along the same line also. I wonder if this is anet's way of trying to balance pvp and pve independentaly and at the same time combat the farmers/gold sellers. Nerf some of the more popular farming builds just enough to discourage it. Why not try it out here instead of making a big mistake in GW2? If it doesn't work here, then you can always scrap the idea before GW2 goes final.
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Old May 10, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29   #323
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Originally Posted by Trub
Because there is still a very large group of players that want the 'old ways' of REAL proffesion skills over PvE (faction based) 'skills'.

Yes, there are still players that play the game without 'imba buffs'.
QFT.

My LB and Nord rank stink. I have no interest in grinding titles for instant-win skills.

I want to be able to do UW and DoA and FoW with a balance group, where a Ranger is a Ranger and a Paragon is a Paragon, without being forced to resort to instant-win skills.

Tonight, I found the following districts for Kamadan: seven American, 2 German, and ONE of each other nationality/language. The Asian districts were deserted, as were many of the European districts. Try doing missions in Cantha -- there's nobody home! There was ONE American district in DoA, and only two groups being actively formed in the party panel.

Too little, too late, ANet. PvE is very dead in this game, beyond farmers and those who use it as a glorified chat room. You should have separated PvE and PvP 2 years ago.

Fixing the barn door after people have left isn't going to work, I'm afraid.
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Old May 10, 2008, 04:37 AM // 04:37   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder
I was thinking along the same line also. I wonder if this is anet's way of trying to balance pvp and pve independentaly and at the same time combat the farmers/gold sellers. Nerf some of the more popular farming builds just enough to discourage it. Why not try it out here instead of making a big mistake in GW2? If it doesn't work here, then you can always scrap the idea before GW2 goes final.
And touchie's can finely be nerfed, and all those other gimick builds in pve and pvp can be nerfed.
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Old May 10, 2008, 04:39 AM // 04:39   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inde
Well... um, I don't think you really read my post. That was my whole point, that in an MMOG you interact with other people. And I didn't give a reason for continuing to play, only that if everything was obtainable in the time amount they specified there wouldn't be something for the "more then casual" players. And I didn't mention anything about grind. Not sure where you are really coming from since I didn't say any of that.
this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inde
If everything can be obtained in only playing an hour or so a day/week/whatever then what appeal does that have for anyone else who actually wants to play the game more??? There's just no way to make something easily obtainable while still maintaining a playerbase that keeps the game running.
i wasnt commenting on the other part,
jus didnt bother to remove it from teh quote


~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zehnchu
And touchie's can finely be nerfed, and all those other gimick builds in pve and pvp can be nerfed.
u dun need pve/pvp seperation to nerf touchers...
so sowrie, wont get nerfed

Last edited by snaek; May 10, 2008 at 04:43 AM // 04:43..
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Old May 10, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45   #326
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Great news
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nothing shall forestall my return."
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Old May 10, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19   #327
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It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Will things get de-nerfed in PvE (please oh please no minion limit - there has never been anything in GW I liked than my tiny MM having an army large enough to lag my computer - plus BotM with an unlimited army will be...interesting with the AI)? Will somethings that are balanced in PvP but are key to an unbalanced build in PvE get the Nerf (prot spirit)? Will they only separate by nerfs and PvP buffs apply to both (imagine the complaints when the PvP only description gets the buff)?

Also how will this work in the long term as skills get further and further apart? We have some skills that through changes (some nerfs and some buffs) aren't remotely the same as they were before. Not swapped from useful to not useful (or vice versa) but still useful but having a totally different use. If this had been in the game we would effective have double the amount of skills in the game as very few have not been touched in some way.

I find it is, from a technical standpoint, a good idea. PvE and PvP have a large amount of overlap that can be maintained (not all skill changes have to be only applied to one side) but I think this will just exponentially increase the complaints. We already see people squaring off about things that now *must* be nerfed/buffed (and will bitterly complain at every chance they get) because of this and we haven't even seen the system in work yet. I think that in practice this will make only a few happy - the vast majority of players not paying attention to skill changes much anyway.

However, for me I mostly look forward to it if Anet does what they think is the right thing. If they cave to the complainers this is going to be an unmitigated disaster.
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Old May 10, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strcpy

However, for me I mostly look forward to it if Anet does what they think is the right thing. If they cave to the complainers this is going to be an unmitigated disaster.
Well, this whole idea of separating PvP and PvE was brought about by caving into complainers. Guess that means an unmitigated disaster will be impending shortly.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00   #329
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Originally Posted by C2K
Well, this whole idea of separating PvP and PvE was brought about by caving into complainers. Guess that means an unmitigated disaster will be impending shortly.
The very 1st skill buff or nerf right after the game, upon released of a patch, is often the results of players whining or complaining in thw 1st place.

This means they have been giving in to complainers already since the 1st patch.

Last edited by Mewcatus; May 10, 2008 at 06:21 AM // 06:21..
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:01 AM // 06:01   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetdoc
...and the divide between PvE and PvP becomes wider. Simply put, it's sad that it has come to this.
^.
I'll reserve judgment until they change something. I suspect this is a downhill move, however.
With the exception of paragons, was there really that much of a disparity? :S.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08   #331
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Gee, 17 pages already.

Why do so many people assume this will lead to (more) powercreep in PvE and thus an even easier game? I'd much rather assume this'll lead to the game finally dealing with the fact that PvP and PvE function under completely different circumstances.

For example, skills like "Watch Yourself!" need a duration unmitigated by number of incoming attacks to be any use at all in PvE. Why? Because in PvE, you have hordes of enemies wailing on you at the same time, something you'll never encounter in PvP. In PvE, the current form of "Watch Yourself!" will only protect you for 0.1 seconds when you need it most. Waste of a skillbar slot. There's dozens of other skills that can't blossom in both environments, thanks to the inherent differences in playstyle. I'm going to assume this is what they're going to be dealing with.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14   #332
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what differentiate pvp from pve ...is that pve is vs AI and not humans.
most pve issues are not due to skill balance but mobs beahviour or composition.
the balancing of skill can only be done through maths and comparison (which is what happens in pvp where skills are facing each other constantly)......in pve is just a question of making AIs better (more similar to human play)....then the same balance of pvp would apply to the pve world.

example : trapping is very good in pve cos mobs are dumb and run straight into them.....if mobs detected and avoided traps then trapping would lose its effectiveness (a nerf without any change to the skill itself).

whining has got nothing to do with balance....if u say a skill has been nerfed too much u have to prove it by comparing it to others both theoretically(maths) and in practice (skill vs skill = which is what pvp is all about)

bottomline: pvp and pve if they share the same skill should also share the same balance.....and pve players should turn their attention and whining on AI issues and leave the balancing of skills to ppl who compare skills daily in their pvp encounters.

the pvp vs pve divide is a false problem created by a community of farmers to benefit farmers and which will kill the game.

Last edited by mafia cyborg; May 10, 2008 at 06:16 AM // 06:16..
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:24 AM // 06:24   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gli
For example, skills like "Watch Yourself!" need a duration unmitigated by number of incoming attacks to be any use at all in PvE. Why? Because in PvE, you have hordes of enemies wailing on you at the same time, something you'll never encounter in PvP. In PvE, the current form of "Watch Yourself!" will only protect you for 0.1 seconds when you need it most. Waste of a skillbar slot. There's dozens of other skills that can't blossom in both environments, thanks to the inherent differences in playstyle. I'm going to assume this is what they're going to be dealing with.
Great point. The WY! nerf was one of the very few I was actually a little upset about. That and the pet/corpse thing. Here's to hoping they are both reverted.

Also, maybe some buffing for Blood Magic's life steal line for PvE - make it a little more useful without imba'ing PvP's spike teams. Would be nice. This has the potential to be really cool if they don't royally screw it up with generic power buffs for the helluvit.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36   #334
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Has anyone looked at this from the middle point? I mean they can really kill off all the farm builds without effecting the PvP side not that most of the farm skills are used in PvP, but I'm just saying the they could reduce the duration of skills or make the recharge time longer .

Also with this split what does it really effect much anyways I mean most sites are split into sections for builds and I think this really only effects those of us that make our own builds cause now we have to look at skills twice or check a site to see if the skill has been change.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38   #335
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What I find most curious is the right to question dubious changes with scorn. I thought the ability to question changes was built into democracy. I think the fact that PvE and PvP aims are different means this is a good change. Let see how it works before we (complain) question the change.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gli
Gee, 17 pages already.

Why do so many people assume this will lead to (more) powercreep in PvE and thus an even easier game? I'd much rather assume this'll lead to the game finally dealing with the fact that PvP and PvE function under completely different circumstances.

For example, skills like "Watch Yourself!" need a duration unmitigated by number of incoming attacks to be any use at all in PvE. Why? Because in PvE, you have hordes of enemies wailing on you at the same time, something you'll never encounter in PvP. In PvE, the current form of "Watch Yourself!" will only protect you for 0.1 seconds when you need it most. Waste of a skillbar slot. There's dozens of other skills that can't blossom in both environments, thanks to the inherent differences in playstyle. I'm going to assume this is what they're going to be dealing with.
i feel instead they should make the AI and composition of mobs more similar to pvp opponents.(that way pve would also become a pvp training ground)
why in pve theres load of mobs piling up giving adavantage to AOE skills?> why mobs run straight into traps?
they should improve the pve world by improving mobs composition and AI.....

mobs moving away from aoe (after a while) was one fo the first changes to improve Ai beahviour.....that sort of changes is what pve needs.
buffing or nerfing pve skills to accomodate a limit in current AI programming is not the way.


the PvE environments in GW are great but the mob population lets it down ....
it feels like they have been thrown in at random ....without any thought whatsoever. (groups too close to each other, badly assorted, dumb AIs etc etc)
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45   #337
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An interesting development. We'll have to wait and see what happens. Personally I'm hoping for a reversion to early 2005 for the inspiration line and also a change to spiritual pain, for when i'm feeling lazy.

Anet have said they have been looking at ways to resolve the Ursan issue, and maybe this is it.

Now a few things may happen
1. Buff everything to make it as over powered as PvE skills and UB
2. Nerf key skills to make the game more challenging for those who choose not to use PvE skills(e.g PS is target other ally)
3. Buff certain skills across all professions, and nerf PvE skills to the floor as every skill will be potentially a PvE only skill.
4. Leave PvE skills as they are and fiddle with a few skills here and there

Option 1, would be iMHO an unmitigated disaster. PvE is already far too easy, and this would destroy any enjoyment in playing.

Option 2. Sounds ok on the face of it, but would drive even more people to use PvE skills. Thus making the discrimination we see worse.

Option 3, would be my preference. Make the game as fun to play with Normal skills, as it was with OP pve ones.

With Option 4, it would be fun for a while, but I don't think it would solve any of the issues people have been talking about since Gwen came out. we'll still get the same discrimination we're seeing to today, with nothing to slow it down.

In addition, what we are seeing is the slow transition of GW1 into GW 1.5. Using us the players to gauge the mechanics they will be using in GW2

This next skill balance will be critical for GW long term, it needs to be just right so as not to spoil things for both pvp and pve.

Last edited by Shanaeri Rynale; May 10, 2008 at 06:53 AM // 06:53..
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:50 AM // 06:50   #338
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Originally Posted by VinnyRidira
What I find most curious is the right to question dubious changes with scorn. I thought the ability to question changes was built into democracy. I think the fact that PvE and PvP aims are different means this is a good change. Let see how it works before we (complain) question the change.
Apparently, certain players here have mentalities which derive from the dark ages. Witch Hunting, the world is round (Oh My Gosh ! ).

Change is a good thing. Let the game evolve 1st, before anyone starts making Nostradamus predictions.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51   #339
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Why?

Why?

WHY?

What on Earth is the point? Some noob wants to do a million damage to monsters, and you're going to listen to him/her? Okay Anet, that's me uninstalling.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale
Option 1, would be iMHO an unmitigated disaster. PvE is already far too easy, and this would destroy any enjoyment in playing.
The flip side is if they buff everything that would also include the monsters you run into. Thus the foes you face will also be a little tougher to compensate for the buff to your skill bar.
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