Curse

snaek · May 11, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

All dead wrong, stereotypical thinking. PvE doesn't require a 'simpler' mentality, but it does require tolerance for different unpleasantness.

yes, it does -require- a simpler mentality
require = beat it, not beat efficiently without dying and a very fast time, etc

Quote:

By contrast, to play top-end PvE, you have to have a high tolerance for repetitive activities. Gameplay changes incrementally, as small variances can yield lots of time savings - and therefore more efficient outputs.

very true
but alas, efficiency is not -required- to beat top-end pvp
only to farm it

the point is:
in pvp, u have to play better than ur opponents, which is a challenge
in pve, u have to play better than the ai, which is quite easy
the challenge in pve that makes -great- pve'rs, comes in efficiency in being able to beat it
but like i said, it is not -required- to beat pve

Quote:

Honestly, it took about the same period of time (2 months) to become excellent at backlining as it did to master all of the more challenging aspects of PvE: tanking, solo farm, running Droks, etc. It's a lot easier to backline PvE...if and only if you have competent aggro play from your group. A dozen Hard Mode monsters can put out a lot more pressure than 8 humans; good team play can make that pressure predictable and therefore manageable.

if it takes u 2 months to become excellent at solo farming or running droks
then ur pretty bad at pve

Quote:

For several of them it was their first time playing The Deep. However, you can infer from the fact that it was their first time playing The Deep that they were NOT new to PvE. Your analogy fails.

i never said they had to be new to pve
jus new to the deep...

my point is that ur first experence in a specific place for pve will be a challenge
(especially without research/prep)
-even- for experienced pve'rs
(example: even high-end pve'rs found doa to be difficult when it was first released....granted, its much different now than it was then)

Quote:

Taking a top 200 player and sticking them into a top 5-10 GvG team is likely to suck a top 5-10 group down to the level of about a top 30-50 group these days. There have been times when the pool of top end players was deeper, and this might have dragged a top 5-10 guild down to playing like a top 75-100 guild.

That's bad, but not disastrous.

yay for readin comprehension
i said taking a -pve'r- into pvp
they can have ra experience (ta/ha perhaps too)
but it needs to be their first gvg experience
(since in ur example, it was the pvp'rs first deep experience)
and how many pvpr's was it again? more than 1 i assume
so lets say the gvg needs to have 4 or 5 pve'rs that r gvg'n for the first time? yesh?

Quote:

Overall, your post fails. You make unfounded assertions and expect me to take them on faith. Try backing up your points with evidence?

i dun need evidence...
its pretty common sense

-Loki- · May 11, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Honestly, it took about the same period of time (2 months) to become excellent at backlining as it did to master all of the more challenging aspects of PvE: tanking, solo farm, running Droks, etc.

Except... those things aren't challenging.

Shinjinbukai · May 11, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

I am mainly a PvE player myself but I have done a decent amount of GvG. The main reason why PvP players consider themselves better than PvE players is because of this.
The game never changes in PvE, whereas in PvP every single match is different.

From this, you can conclude PvE is easier than PvP because you can prepare for it. But what I would like to point out is this. PvE can be hard if you have no prior knowledge to what the heck you are fighting/doing. As an example the first groups to do "The Deep" had no freaking idea how to get past the first groups and were essentially stuck, you could say these are comparable to losses in PvP. But it doesn't change.

PvP is harder than PvE only after you have learned the area. I guarentee you if you put the best PvP team in lets say DoA hard mode and non of them had no prior knowledge to the area or had access to wiki or anything, they would fall flat on their asses for a couple of runs.

The problem is that PvP players don't recognize this, and a lot are very elitist, and a lot of PvE players are new to the game or choose to be more relaxed and play less. And it used to be that skill updates would affect either party at the same time, even if a skill was only broken in one or the other. Anet used to only care about PvP for the first year or so, until Sorrows Furnace about. Then it started to focus more on PvE until about nightfall. Now its a lot more balanced and care and consideration are taken to both.

wu is me · May 11, 2008, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinjinbukai

PvP is harder than PvE only after you have learned the area. I guarentee you if you put the best PvP team in lets say DoA hard mode and non of them had no prior knowledge to the area or had access to wiki or anything, they would fall flat on their asses for a couple of runs.

what if they know about ursan? =O

Yichi · May 11, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

This thread has gone way past its usefulness...

Racthoh · May 11, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Honestly, it took about the same period of time (2 months) to become excellent at backlining as it did to master all of the more challenging aspects of PvE: tanking, solo farm, running Droks, etc.

Mastering PvE involves your speedyness to type /help in chat then clicking a few wiki links. Tanking, solo farming, and running Droks is PvEAI; Player Versus Exploitable Artificial Intelligence.

Tyla · May 11, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

To play top-end PvP, you have to have a high tolerance for abuse and idiocy in Vent. Immaturity tends to run deep in the PvP community, because of the demographic that can commit to playing daily.

Actually, no you don't. If someone is abusing Vent, in the middle of a game ofcourse, then they shouldn't be tolerated and kicked.
Unless you're not speaking about GvG, and talking about HA when you've got gimmick PuGs, you're right. Only because all those people consist of is c-spacing, unless they're below Rank 3. Which is understandable unranked.

But look at all of the high ranked PuG's. Rank 9 for Sway? Lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

so lets say the gvg needs to have 4 or 5 pve'rs that r gvg'n for the first time? yesh?

I remember a GvG against a team like that, except I think they were all newbies. A couple of Flashing Blades 'Sins for offense and a Burning Arrow Ranger without D-Shot and running Epidemic.
Aswell as a Wammo with Healing Breeze. Our Monk DC'd and we decided to gank their lord, it was good fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

This thread has gone way past its usefulness...

I agree.

@Shinjibukai -- Some PvP'ers trip up on their arses while trying to get used to a new build sometimes.
And don't forget that the vast majority of them migrated from PvE to PvP, more specifically, atleast 90% of the 2005 players.

CassiusDrehyg · May 11, 2008, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

You see that's part of the issue right there. What you are saying can be debated since there are many area's that require just as much skill in PvE. I think the DVDF UW competition proved that theory. There were many UW teams that had strong PvP players in it who simply could not complete that task before them, complete all UW quests in a fast amount of time, and yet failed in that task.

Skill in a video game can be defined as many things to many players. Overall skill usually equals the amount of time within your enviroment. Your argument is more subjective than fact. Fact would be the strong discrimination that occurs because of Rank Emotes in a public video game.

Go to H&H and tell people you are rank 1 wanting to learn the PvP game, and then see what happens. Now go to any PvE starting area and start LFG. Right away you can see the difference in attitude as the PvE area's have a friendlier approach to new players. This fact of attitude to new players PvE or PvP cannot be denied as it can be proven in actual game play. I'm not saying this is the only element of dissention between the two just one factor of many.

The fact that PvP players can't complete UW faster than PvE players in an obscure player-run event doesn't change the fact that perhaps the PvP players would've done a better job of clearing the Underworld, id est, PvP players might've died less because of bad monking or whatever other possible condition, because let's face it, PvE-only Monk players are terrible.

Skill is defined, in most cases, by experience. People can still play things over and over and improve at different rates, mind. That's why we don't have a game full of gold-trimmed players.

From what you said there, I can tell that you're a total carebear. If you weren't, you'd know that PvP players ARE in fact, friendly people. The simple reason for the "attitude" they give to PvE players, is that PvE players come to Heroes' Ascent expecting to be spoonfed by higher ranked players. Any idiot could go to PvE, pick up a talentless scrub by spamming "LFG" in !All chat, go in, and lose.

-Loki- · May 11, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I remember a GvG against a team like that, except I think they were all newbies. A couple of Flashing Blades 'Sins for offense and a Burning Arrow Ranger without D-Shot and running Epidemic.
Aswell as a Wammo with Healing Breeze. Our Monk DC'd and we decided to gank their lord, it was good fun.

It's funnier when they aren't level 20. I remember a team with a level 9 ranger.

Holly Herro · May 11, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

PvErs are the players that arn't R11.

Kashrlyyk · May 11, 2008, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

3 Things started PvP hate.

1) Ascalon Arena's in Prophecies 10th level and under.

People got ran to Droknar early in the game. They had better armor, skills, equipment for characters of 10th level and under. This left a sour taste in the mouth of many people just learning the game. Since they had to compete with people who who had an obvious uncontrolled advantage. This still happens today.

2) Rank E-motes

Before Rank Emotes for H&H people would just join up with teams and have fun. When the Rank Emotes appeared people were discriminated against on a daily basis, it only got worse over time. Fun became less and less a factor.

3) Skill updates.

It was one thing to update a skill to reflect a change that was needed in the game. For example ranger spirit spamming was a serious problem as you could create physical barriers to prevent enemies from moving into your area. For thoes that remember Power of My Rangers created some serious challenges for many teams during this H&H exploit. However ANET took another approach to the updates. They no longer fixed skills and did minor adjustments. They effectively eliminated entire skill line ups. Not just one skill in the game but multiple lines. It first started with the Ritual Lord Nerf then moved onto other entire lines of builds. Now we can argue all day if these skills were over powered thats not the point. These nerfs ruined the PvE experience that is just as important as the PvP challenge and balance. Failure to separate PvP and PvE ideals and concepts created an even stronger division. Thus the two became bitter rivals like twins trying to control the attention of a single parent.

In conclusion I don't blame the community for the division I blame ANET for promoting the hostility that continues today. In short ANet created the hostility by not fully understanding the mentality of both worlds and forcing the combination of the two on the player. This can be achieved by forcing the login to one of two servers, a PvP server and a PvE server. One server has one set of skills the other another more balanced set of skills for PvP play.

To date there is no separation of PvP and PvE skills as there should be.
Grind for PvE skills for power that prohibits many PvP players from enjoying the fun aspects of power PvE play. (For those who know what I'm speaking of I'm not referring to Ursan) PvP emotes discriminate vs. someone who might want to begin learning PvP play. Both area's of the game discriminate vs. the other.

4) Within 6 months after release PvP was completly separated from PvE. They introduced PvP characters and Balthasar factions. So no need to enter PvE at all. They kept the idiotic dependency of favor on PvP. So PvE access to PvE areas, were controlled by PvP players. It took them 2 years to change that!

DarkNecrid · May 11, 2008, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

PvP is harder than PvE only after you have learned the area. I guarentee you if you put the best PvP team in lets say DoA hard mode and non of them had no prior knowledge to the area or had access to wiki or anything, they would fall flat on their asses for a couple of runs.

good luck finding any PvP players in the top 100 who haven't done DoA/don't know anything about it...anyone not in the top 100 doesn't really matter all that much. Most PvPers (the ones you'd call PvPers, who are supa hardcore) do PvE, play in PvE chars with tormented shields and elemental swords and 15k armor, etc.

Divine (holymasamune) is a God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals for instance, and he is one of the better players in dR, the guild that won first in the last AT.

randomperson · May 11, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Divine is a particularly strong PvEr, though.

DarkNecrid · May 11, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by randomperson

Divine is a particularly strong PvEr, though.

Almost every single person in a top 100 guild is a particularly strong PvEr, because when the game came out you were forced to PvE to PvP for about half a year, and its a nice (if easy) diversion as well.

That was my point.

Avarre · May 11, 2008, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Almost every single person in a top 100 guild is a particularly strong PvEr, because when the game came out you were forced to PvE to PvP for about half a year, and its a nice (if easy) diversion as well.

That was my point.

This is a point that a lot of players seem to miss. The number of players that only play PvP is pretty low, most of the PvP community plays PvE as well. Just about every vocal PvP player on guru plays PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Within 6 months after release PvP was completly separated from PvE. They introduced PvP characters and Balthasar factions. So no need to enter PvE at all. They kept the idiotic dependency of favor on PvP. So PvE access to PvE areas, were controlled by PvP players. It took them 2 years to change that!

You needed PvE characters to be competitive in PvP. For this reason, every major PvP player was also a PvE player. It wasn't until Nightfall that this was no longer necessary.

randomperson · May 11, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Definitely, everyone in the top 100 plays PvE, but I find it hard to believe that the majority have GWAMM.

JR · May 11, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinjinbukai

PvP is harder than PvE only after you have learned the area. I guarentee you if you put the best PvP team in lets say DoA hard mode and non of them had no prior knowledge to the area or had access to wiki or anything, they would fall flat on their asses for a couple of runs.

Pretty sure myself and three other guys (whom you would refer to as 'PvP players') four manned the entirety of ToPK the day it became a PvE zone, on our first run through. Meanwhile 'PvE players' were posting QQ threads about how it was ridiculously hard even in 8 man groups.

We used two GvG boon prots (in an area with ridiculous amounts of enchant hate), an SS Necro with four skills on his bar, and a griffon farming Warrior bar. Shortly after this we were regularly farming the area (the Shield, Sword and Hammer were all considered pretty good in PvP at the time) with members of last pride, getting better completion times than anyone else.

PvE teaches you how to adapt your skill bars to particular situations. PvP teaches you how to adapt to any situation with an optimal response, regardless of your skill bar (though it helps).

As has been pointed out many times already, most PvPers these days are people who became bored of the lack of challenge in PvE and moved on. Most still do PvE on the side, and are good at it when they do - though actual player skill means less and less with the introduction of powerful PvE skills like Ursan/SY etc.

-Loki- · May 11, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

4) Within 6 months after release PvP was completly separated from PvE. They introduced PvP characters and Balthasar factions. So no need to enter PvE at all. They kept the idiotic dependency of favor on PvP. So PvE access to PvE areas, were controlled by PvP players. It took them 2 years to change that!

As Avarre pointed out, pretty much anyone that took PvP seriously ran a PvE character until Nightfall was released. Sure, they added balthazar faction, but it wasn't enough. it was hopelessly slow for unlocking when introduced, and there were more critical problems. PvP characters had only one armour set and two weapon sets. A PvE character should have as many as they could fit in their inventory.

So, again, anyone that took PvP seriously ran at least one PvE character (for the position they played best) for the equipment advantages. So, PvP players have been playing PvE for just as long as PvE players - but doing not only all the high end PvE, but also the more challenging PvP. Those players are better players, from sheer experience.

bel unbreakable · May 11, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

and there in is the reason for all the pvp/pve hate we have it never used to be like that all the old pvpers worked for every thing they are and we never had all this hate then anet gave them the unlock packs and the whole world went to shit

JR · May 11, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bel unbreakable

and there in is the reason for all the pvp/pve hate we have it never used to be like that all the old pvpers worked for every thing they are and we never had all this hate then anet gave them the unlock packs and the whole world went to shit

Actually it used to be considerably worse.