Curse

enter_the_zone · May 10, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

To me, it seems that some PVP players take it VERY, VERY seriously. I can understand this in really high end stuff like top 100 GVG and MAT's, but in HA? Really? Getting so mad that you must be risking an aneurysm, over a game, is just plain stupid. Worse, over a single match, in a game where deaths don't matter and you'll be in another match in 10 minutes. Imagine these people playing a game with persistent death...

These people just ruin PVP for me, I just can't deal with that kind of attitude. Take a chill pill, light a splif, get counseling or anger management, drink more booze, anything really. They should learn not to care so much, it's just a game and if they actually care about winning and losing every match, they really are losers. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. The world can be a biatch, so deal with it already. They should get a life, or buy one on eBay if they have too.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about the pointless ragefests that HA can be. Raging about losing in high end GVG and MAT's is more understandable, since that's an actual loss, not just a waste of 10 minutes.

bhavv · May 10, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

but in HA? Really? Getting so mad that you must be risking an aneurysm, over a game, is just plain stupid.

Thats the leading reason why I quit HA. H/H in PVE is far more enjoyable then any aspect of GW that involves playing with other people.

snaek · May 10, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Now look who's being silly. I play hockey. Why would a soccer team be interested in my slap shot?

thats a bad sports analogy...
heres a proper one:

pve = runnin a hockey obstacle course over and over again, tryin to get the best time

pvp = playin a hockey game vs another team, tryin to win

sure, perhaps some nobody can skate from one end of the rink to the other around pylons faster than gretzky can...
but does that really matter?

no matter how good ur slap shot is....if u cant beat the defenders/goalie and win games wit it...

GaladrielMoloch · May 10, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

The true problem is when people think they are good running builds that work in PvE but any person with a brain in PvP will counter it. For example a 10 second spike is crap or standing in AoE is moronic.

This is why you get huge amounts of animosity between the "PvP elitists" & "PvE scrubs" in such areas as RA and AB (lower ends of PvP). Not being one to generally insult people over their playing ability and meaning it, doing things such as casting fire attunement when backfire is on you and no one else is around, is bloody retarded (I saw someone doing this last night in AB 2-3 times; we lost by roughly 5 points)

There is a degree of expertize that people who play primarily PvE seem to lack on entering PvP, which is fine, as long as they listen. But not bringing a rez sig in RA, running towards a mob in AB, etc is just plain stupid and has nothing to do with your primary play style.

Red Sonya · May 10, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

wish people would really stop saying ha takes pvp skill. the only real form of pvp is gvg.

This is the type of person I was talking about earlier.

Res Ipsi · May 11, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

[font=century gothic]thats a bad sports analogy...
heres a proper one:

pve = runnin a hockey obstacle course over and over again, tryin to get the best time

pvp = playin a hockey game vs another team, tryin to win

My analogy was to show that PvE and PvP might as well be two different sports. However, let's use your example for the sake of argument. If the goal of the two aspects of playing (beat a mission vs. beat an opposing team) are different, why are even bothering to compare them?

Edge Martinez · May 11, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

I do both, pve/p. I just wish they'd dump the dishonorable combatant bullcrap. Nothing spells revenge like voting off someone you can't best. And nothing is worse than getting dropped and coming back to see you can't compete.

LifesRestorer · May 11, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

guild wars is not an MMO, it is A CORPG
Competitive
Online
Role
Playing
Game

Look at GW: Prophicies. When the game was made, every aspect of play was built up to the grand pinnacle of the game: PvP.
You learnt to play as you went along and once you reached the latter stages of the game and completed your training (ascalon - jungle) you were put up to the final test: The desert. the introduction of pvp. Each mission represented a mission objective in HA.
Elona Reach - Relic Running
Thirsty River - Priest map annihilation
Dunes of Despair - Altar Holding

From the words of Co-founder Mike O'Brien...

Quote:

Guild War was built from the ground up to be a competitive game

Obviously the motives since then have been changed and Guild Wars will never be the Competitive masterpiece that it could have been. They realised that the real money is in the pve community, so that is what they catered towards.

So now, instead of a pve game being made to lead up to pvp game, which was at the time seen as the ultimate stage of the game, the game has been completely split in two. this started at the battle isles, continued through with the change of pve only skills and is now being taken onto even more drastic measures: separate pve/pvp balancing of skills.

DreamWind · May 11, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

guild wars is not an MMO, it is A CORPG
Competitive
Online
Role
Playing
Game

Look at GW: Prophicies. When the game was made, every aspect of play was built up to the grand pinnacle of the game: PvP.
You learnt to play as you went along and once you reached the latter stages of the game and completed your training (ascalon - jungle) you were put up to the final test: The desert. the introduction of pvp. Each mission represented a mission objective in HA.
Elona Reach - Relic Running
Thirsty River - Priest map annihilation
Dunes of Despair - Altar Holding

From the words of Co-founder Mike O'Brien...

Obviously the motives since then have been changed and Guild Wars will never be the Competitive masterpiece that it could have been. They realised that the real money is in the pve community, so that is what they catered towards.

So now, instead of a pve game being made to lead up to pvp game, which was at the time seen as the ultimate stage of the game, the game has been completely split in two. this started at the battle isles, continued through with the change of pve only skills and is now being taken onto even more drastic measures: separate pve/pvp balancing of skills.

You win the prize. The problem is that PvE has completely taken over. People wonder why there are bitter players.

Avarre · May 11, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

No one is the best. There is always someone better.

Even in theory that destroys itself as in the end, you reach the best player. While that player may not be the best for long, as the top of the game shifts, they still are for that period, and are remembered as such.

By the way, if you don't know who the mentioned two monks are (Soul and Tommy), it's not because they're nobodies.

Quote:

To me, it seems that some PVP players take it VERY, VERY seriously. I can understand this in really high end stuff like top 100 GVG and MAT's, but in HA? Really?

Usually when I see this (and I've done it once or twice) is not because of the loss, but because the loss was due to someone making a mistake that is really beneath them. A team with a weak link is going to have problems, and for a player to play their best but still lose because of someone else doing horribly is more irritating than your team being outplayed.

To draw a PvE comparison, it's like having an amazing FoW run while being followed by a group member who magically steals all your drops while dying all the time. Sure, it's just a PvE run and you only lose time, but it's annoying.

Obviously, among players reactions will differ.

Savio · May 11, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

To draw a PvE comparison, it's like having an amazing FoW run while being followed by a group member who magically steals all your drops while dying all the time.

Actually, it's more like having an awesome FoW run and finishing all but 1 quest, and then someone decides to go afk, aggros three mobs, then when he gets back he brings those mobs to the griffons, killing them. You lose, but not because your whole team was bad, just one idiot.

Avarre · May 11, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Actually, it's more like having an awesome FoW run and finishing all but 1 quest, and then someone decides to go afk, aggros three mobs, then when he gets back he brings those mobs to the griffons, killing them. You lose, but not because your whole team was bad, just one idiot.

That works too.

While groups that know each other might not make a big deal of it, when you PuG members and they end up wrecking you, there can be problems. Hence why most good groups don't PuG at all if possible; the players they get are unknown values.

RedNova88 · May 11, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

People just want to be on the "winning" or the "best" teams. And because PvP requires more skill in some instances people go ahead and assume that PvErs should be denied their right to enjoyment.

It's funny because this reminds me of a rant that went on while I was playing Halo 3, someone mentioned that they had gone through and beaten the whole game on Legendary. Some other person burst out instantly ranting/bragging that he won some Halo 3 online championship and that he was a "god" compared to everyone else. I guess what I'm getting at is that some people just HAVE to feel special, they either do it by winning, or by hurting others in some manner, so that they feel superior. So I suppose when someone rants about how PvP > PvE or vise versa they're just trying to self idolize themselves. You have no argument from me that PvP requires more skill and teamwork, but that doesn't make it better. Better is just an opinion, and opinions should be respected unless hard facts are shown to prove otherwise.

Live and let live, or sooner or later someone will come kick your ass.

maraxusofk · May 11, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

People just want to be on the "winning" or the "best" teams. And because PvP requires more skill in some instances people go ahead and assume that PvErs should be denied their right to enjoyment.

It's funny because this reminds me of a rant that went on while I was playing Halo 3, someone mentioned that they had gone through and beaten the whole game on Legendary. Some other person burst out instantly ranting/bragging that he won some Halo 3 online championship and that he was a "god" compared to everyone else. I guess what I'm getting at is that some people just HAVE to feel special, they either do it by winning, or by hurting others in some manner, so that they feel superior. So I suppose when someone rants about how PvP > PvE or vise versa they're just trying to self idolize themselves. You have no argument from me that PvP requires more skill and teamwork, but that doesn't make it better. Better is just an opinion, and opinions should be respected unless hard facts are shown to prove otherwise.

Live and let live, or sooner or later someone will come kick your ass.

i know im completely missing your point but beating the game on legendary single player is easy...... its the easiest of the 3 halos to do so.

Martin Alvito · May 11, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

OP: This is very simple. There are players that are very good at PvP. There are players that are very good at PvE. Each requires a very different mentality for success and significant time investment, so it's rare that you encounter players that are good at both. I'm not aware of anyone that has managed to concurrently do amazing things in both types of play.

With skill usually comes ego. With ego comes not listening to others. This is a problem in both communities.

Further, you've got a PvP community whose top players are used to filtering out the 'noise' of comments from inferior players that they do not respect (often rightfully so - there's a lot of idiocy in the lower echelons of the PvP community). This community is coupled with a PvE community that feels underappreciated and scorned, particularly given that members know they can do challenging things that the 'leet' PvP-ers cannot.

Example: I played The Deep one night a couple of years ago with a group comprised of PvP players from various guilds. These players are/were good enough at the game that you'd know the players if you EVER use Obs. If it hadn't been for the presence of a couple of scrubs such as myself that spend a good chunk of their time in PvE, the group would have been an epic failure.

Wasn't that they were bad at the game; it was that several members had short attention spans and that several just didn't know the ins and outs of PvE in general. It was a good thing that they were mostly a gracious bunch that likes to succeed, or it could have gotten ugly. Instead, they realized that they were deficient, took instruction well, and completed the mission while generally playing like a mediocre PUG.

All told, this is a recipe for conflict. Doesn't have to be this way, but community relations invariably tend to play to the lowest common denominator in both communities - which often happens in life generally.

snaek · May 11, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

My analogy was to show that PvE and PvP might as well be two different sports. However, let's use your example for the sake of argument. If the goal of the two aspects of playing (beat a mission vs. beat an opposing team) are different, why are even bothering to compare them?

thats teh whole point of comparing...lookin at the differences (and similarities)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

This is very simple. There are players that are very good at PvP. There are players that are very good at PvE. Each requires a very different mentality for success and significant time investment, so it's rare that you encounter players that are good at both.

no its not that simple

pve requires a simpler mentality and a lesser time investment
thats y pvp'rs can spend less time on pve and still be decent at it
pve'rs will have to spend a lot more time and effort to be decent at pvp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Example: I played The Deep one night a couple of years ago with a group comprised of PvP players from various guilds. These players are/were good enough at the game that you'd know the players if you EVER use Obs. If it hadn't been for the presence of a couple of scrubs such as myself that spend a good chunk of their time in PvE, the group would have been an epic failure.

lemmie aks u this, was it their first time doin the deep?
if u take an experienced pve'r, and have them do the deep for the very first time, it too would prolly produce similar results
however a pve'r tryin to fill in the roll of a pvp'r in a high-end pvp match for the first time will prolly have more disasterous results

Red Sonya · May 11, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

The two most common phrases I come across in PVE and PVP

PVE: (when mission or quest is completed successfully) wow you all are great, good work, good job, I'm adding you to my friends list.

PVP: when things go bad: "You all SUCK!" "Buncha idiot noobs" "Worst pvp players I ever saw". "You all need to go back to PVE".

PVE: when things go bad: "You all SUCK!" "You stupid noobs", "Idiots", "Morons", "Dumba**es", "You are all retarded","PUGS suck and all of them are iditos"
[Now I ask you do attitudes like that strike you as someone who is good at what they do in the game?? I've found more people who are actually worse players than those they complain about when they use these particular exclamations]

One thing I notice also between both, not one time does the complainer EVER take responsibility for the fail even when it's clearly some of their fault if not all of their fault. lol I've seen monks get blamed for everything, but, did anyone go back and protect the monk from getting banged on by 3 hammer warriors? nooooooooooo lol Like I said earlier I read a lot of people saying how good they are, but, I'm seeing a lot of people who ain't 1/2 as good as they say they are when it really gets down to it. Those that THINK they are elite like to talk a lot of smack online where of course it can't be proven. Heck I can do that. I'm the greatest player in GW's but I won't waste my time in silly childish guilds or playing GvG. See? How easy that is to say and nobody can disprove it.

Martin Alvito · May 11, 2008, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

pve requires a simpler mentality and a lesser time investment
thats y pvp'rs can spend less time on pve and still be decent at it
pve'rs will have to spend a lot more time and effort to be decent at pvp

All dead wrong, stereotypical thinking. PvE doesn't require a 'simpler' mentality, but it does require tolerance for different unpleasantness.

Couple of years ago, I used to monk HA extensively and guest top 100 GvG regularly. To play top-end PvP, you have to have a high tolerance for abuse and idiocy in Vent. Immaturity tends to run deep in the PvP community, because of the demographic that can commit to playing daily.

By contrast, to play top-end PvE, you have to have a high tolerance for repetitive activities. Gameplay changes incrementally, as small variances can yield lots of time savings - and therefore more efficient outputs.

Honestly, it took about the same period of time (2 months) to become excellent at backlining as it did to master all of the more challenging aspects of PvE: tanking, solo farm, running Droks, etc. It's a lot easier to backline PvE...if and only if you have competent aggro play from your group. A dozen Hard Mode monsters can put out a lot more pressure than 8 humans; good team play can make that pressure predictable and therefore manageable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

lemmie aks u this, was it their first time doin the deep?
if u take an experienced pve'r, and have them do the deep for the very first time, it too would prolly produce similar results
however a pve'r tryin to fill in the roll of a pvp'r in a high-end pvp match for the first time will prolly have more disasterous results

For several of them it was their first time playing The Deep. However, you can infer from the fact that it was their first time playing The Deep that they were NOT new to PvE. Your analogy fails.

Taking a top 200 player and sticking them into a top 5-10 GvG team is likely to suck a top 5-10 group down to the level of about a top 30-50 group these days. There have been times when the pool of top end players was deeper, and this might have dragged a top 5-10 guild down to playing like a top 75-100 guild.

That's bad, but not disastrous.

Overall, your post fails. You make unfounded assertions and expect me to take them on faith. Try backing up your points with evidence?

Martin Alvito · May 11, 2008, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

One thing I notice also between both, not one time does the complainer EVER take responsibility for the fail even when it's clearly some of their fault if not all of their fault.

Yup, biggest problem in the community. There's only one solution to that problem - rigid discipline. Anyone that is consistently like that, no matter how skilled, has to be banished from play with your group.

What stinks is the only effective solution to that problem: to deal with it for months on end while you manage the necessary accomplishments to be able to replace highly skilled whiners with similarly skilled non-whiners. (Good players don't join you if you don't have something to offer, but once you reach the tipping point...they start banging down the door.)

Worse, then you have to upkeep the situation. This requires playing enough to keep everyone's attention and turning on people that become whiners and complainers without pity or mercy. Certainly, you try to work out those situations at the level of friendship first, but if that fails...you're doing your entire group a disservice by not solving the problem. That's poor leadership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaladrielMoloch

The true problem is when people think they are good running builds that work in PvE but any person with a brain in PvP will counter it. For example a 10 second spike is crap or standing in AoE is moronic.

Do you observe HA? People stand in AoE all the time these days. Even on "good" teams by today's standards. Bad play is everywhere.

Did you know that a spike with an 8 second recharge is one of the most successful builds in the history of HA? Took two nerfs of the Necro primary attribute to kill it, and even THEN it still rises from the ashes periodically.

TheHaxor · May 11, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Example: I played The Deep one night a couple of years ago with a group comprised of PvP players from various guilds. These players are/were good enough at the game that you'd know the players if you EVER use Obs. If it hadn't been for the presence of a couple of scrubs such as myself that spend a good chunk of their time in PvE, the group would have been an epic failure.

Haxor will lead you to victory.

He's not kidding. We're talking some of the most famous players in the history of the game.