Curse

Nightow · May 21, 2008, 12:49 PM // 12:49

First the Holy Trinity came about and many professions were left out in the dust.

In order to rectify this, Anet created [ursan blessing].

Players constantly complain about ursan blessing but rarely discuss how it managed to bypass the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Holy Trinity.

If you're going to talk about nerfing Ursan Blessing folks, why don't we first try to fix the original issue. That way... if and when Ursan Blessing is nerfed, we don't have the same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up that we did before the bear came about.

moriz · May 21, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

the "holy trinity" is a myth. please stop using this ridiculous term.

Nightow · May 21, 2008, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Call it what ever you want, certain professions were obviously not wanted in PvE pugs.

Also, http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=%22trinity%22

moriz · May 21, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

let me rephrase then: the holy trinity, in any way shape or form, does not exist. stop blaming your own lackings on some imaginary standard.

BlackSephir · May 21, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

First the Holy Trinity came about and many professions were left out in the dust.

In order to rectify this, Anet created [ursan blessing].

Players constantly complain about ursan blessing but rarely discuss how it managed to bypass the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Holy Trinity.

If you're going to talk about nerfing Ursan Blessing folks, why don't we first try to fix the original issue. That way... if and when Ursan Blessing is nerfed, we don't have the same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up that we did before the bear came about.

Get your fail and your holy trinity with you. Ursan, monks, imbagon. And if you want to run anything else you'll have to go H/H or with guildies.

Yeah, I can see how this "holy trinity" is over.

Nightow · May 21, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

So you're saying that before Ursan Blessing, all professions were not left out in pugs? Even in areas like FoW, UW and DoA?

Shuuda · May 21, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

So the MAJORITY you're speaking of are Forum posters? That's a drop in the bucket compared to the entire GW community, whose opinions aren't necessarily represented by the whiners.

But can't forums be seen as a microcosm? In which case it does have some represntation of what people want, it's not totally accurate, but forums be paint a picture of what the community is like.

Sab · May 21, 2008, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

I have, and except for outposts like ToA, DoA, and assorted dungeons, it's not nearly as common as a few posters here have made it out to be. In any event, my view is that many players slap these skills on their bars not because they want to feel "epic" while owning masses of red dots, but because they want to speed things up. Players completed missions long before these silly skills were introduced, so the skills themselves added nothing to the game but a faster way to do so.

The original point was Izzy's statement that "PvErs want overpowered things" - I still can't see how that's an incorrect generalization. You said that many players just want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. Either they like using overpowered skills, or they're indifferent to balance. In any case, neither of them suggest that PvErs want a balanced game.

Tyla · May 21, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

So you're saying that before Ursan Blessing, all professions were not left out in pugs? Even in areas like FoW, UW and DoA?

PuG's are bad.

FoW is easy.
UW is just a little hard at the Chaos Planes.
DoA does kinda hurt a little on the melee. (Gloom...QQ)

Just because PuG's lack knowledge doesn't mean what they say is true.

Esan · May 21, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Regardless of what "PvEers want" (which, let's be honest, no single player is capable of judging), the indisputable fact is that overpowered PvE-only skills are popular. This could mean that PvEers like overpowered skills qua skills, or it could just as well mean that PvEers like to finish things quickly and safely and the overpowered skills are just their best tools. The latter is not unique to PvE -- any PvPer worth the air he breathes would also use the best tools at his disposal.

The introduction of PvE-only skills was a mistake not because it made PvE "too easy" (which it doubtlessly did, but that's a symptom), but because it caused an unhealable rift between those players who pick the best tools for PvE and those who pick the best tools for PvP. These two groups no longer speak the same language -- the common set of skills. It is foolish to blame any players for this as it was always a predictable outcome of design decisions made by Anet.

Nightow · May 21, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

PuG's are bad.

FoW is easy.
UW is just a little hard at the Chaos Planes.
DoA does kinda hurt a little on the melee. (Gloom...QQ)

Just because PuG's lack knowledge doesn't mean what they say is true.

Yeah but when the majority of your guild can't or don't want to do DoA/UW (and you can't just leave them

) guess what you're left with?

Pugs.

Might not be right but if I want to go do that elite area, I'd rather load up [ursan blessing] on my main than have to play a profession that I really don't like to play as.

Tyla · May 21, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

And if you aren't the right rank?

Or in your "Holy Trinity", right profession?

Variables exist, you know. :>

zwei2stein · May 21, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

So you're saying that before Ursan Blessing, all professions were not left out in pugs? Even in areas like FoW, UW and DoA?

Why do you think that those areas need to be "Pugable" to begin with?

Anyway, if you want to blame someone, blame people who created mesmers because they looked pretty and showed all the pugs lots of reasons for rather having empty party slot than taking mesmers. Blame all those naruto-60dp-instadeath sins.

"Blame Izzy" for creating what can be considered PvP-only classes and allowing to play them in PvE. Blame him for giving those classes too steep learning curve so that you cant trust stranger to play them well.

Blame people who chose professions incompatible with teambuilds for wanting place in that teambuild anyway.

Izzy learned of course:
Bad sin player does not damage and dies fast. Bad Dervish player deals some damage and survives easily thanks to all those balthazar avatars, vital boons and such... So dervishes didn't really get any stigma.

Nightow · May 21, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And if you aren't the right rank?

Or in your "Holy Trinity", right profession?

Variables exist, you know. :>

Right, Im not saying that Ursan Blessing is the correct answer but I am saying that we need to look at the original problem first (Not all professions equally appealing in high-end PvE gameplay) before we try to apply a quick fix (nerf UB).

Now please stop trying to say that Heroes/Hench/guildies are the way to go beacuse H/H make me want to bash my head into the desk sometimes and guildies are not always available or not enough people who can do said areas are online.

Quote:

Why do you think that those areas need to be "Pugable" to begin with?

Besides pugs, only other ways are with heroes or guildies. Read above as to why those don't always work out.

To be honest, I have had more success with [ursan blessing] pugs lately than I have ever had with heroes.

Tyla · May 21, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Then H/H or Guildies aren't the way to go?

Put it this way, if you're in a guild with your timezone and it's pretty active, chances are you'll easily make a guild group.

FoxBat · May 21, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

"Holy Trinity" was never the fastest build almost anywhere, but it was the easiest, which is important for pugging elite areas. In pugs you want to reduce the amount of skill involved to mitigate the consequences of playing with idiots. (Hence, Ursanway.) We can only pray they find other solutions in GW2, like more defined class roles.

Molock · May 21, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things. They don't want things to change very much. Things need to remain static so that they can learn and plan strategies. Change is bad for them - it creates instability in their world. They often have builds and Heroes set up to work off of each other. A major change could completely destroy their game experience.

No wonder stupid skills like Ursan are allowed to exist... that comment makes me sad

Rift · May 21, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The original point was Izzy's statement that "PvErs want overpowered things" - I still can't see how that's an incorrect generalization. You said that many players just want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. Either they like using overpowered skills, or they're indifferent to balance. In any case, neither of them suggest that PvErs want a balanced game.

It's not that PVEers want overpowered things, it's that PVE is imbalanced by design.

Why is it that the only way to increase difficulty is to give enemy NPCs 10 more levels, increase their activation speeds and resilience, or producing unfair environmental conditions.

It's not fun to "epically" breeze through everything and anything. However, it's also not fun to constantly face areas where your tools/skills that are severely gimped compared to your opposition, to make up for AI deficiencies. Anyone who's vanquished Tyria can vouch for this; unless you're a masochist, the fun factor was quite low.

Put level 30 archers in GVG, and you'll hear crying akin to when VIO had the potential of creating ridiculous NPC spikes.

Res Ipsi · May 21, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Players constantly complain about ursan blessing....

This is exactly what I've been referring to. Clearly, not everyone embraces the PvE skills with enthusiasm. If this forum is a microcosm of the GW community (as Shuuda points out), then the PvE skill debate appears to have as many detractors as enthusiasts on this site alone. We can quibble over what Izzy meant (i.e., the majority of PvE players, all PvE players, etc.), but the point is (and I'm not alone in this thinking) that a good number of players aren't as enamored with skills like Ursan as he assumed we might be.

Angelic Upstart · May 21, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

They must have missed the whole Ursan, Consumables and general difficulty debates here on this and other forums.

Not missed, blatantly ignored, i dont think Anet intends to do anything about PvE skills, in fact GW2 will probably see more introduced.

For me PvE skills have nullified a lot of things that made this game as good as it was, i will definately take a good hard look at GW2 before i commit to buying it.