Curse

IslandHermet · Jun 02, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

Why not? Maybe the Five Gods will actually something more than sitting on their arses. I don't have high opinions of the gods as they gave only their "blessing" in my attempt to kill a god, and that I have to tidy their realms that they can't seem to control themselves.
I think the Gods need some serious competition, as they seem to have the foresight to see that some simple humans can topple gods.

QFT.

If the dragons are going to be close to as strong/powerful as the gods in GW1

Im not scared at all.

Abbadon was a punk god way to easy to kill (since we are only mortals he should have just looked at us and we drop dead but owell)

Grenth and balth are even worse

What help are mel,dawyna,lyssa (none)

seems it would be a very fitting end If the dragons wake up and kill all the gods. But here we come with our mortal bodys of spungy fragile flesh to kill the dragons muahahah. Now watch as I stab this 4 foot long sword into this HUGE HUGE dragon (oops I killed him in 1 hit my bad)

Konig Des Todes · Jun 02, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Island, and all others who say "Abaddon was easy." Let me tell you why he was.
...

...

...

...

HE WAS CHAINED AND STILL WEAKENED! And notice how we had to CHAIN HIM DOWN in order to even attack him? Funny, how gods are just sooooo weak. -.- *short sighted ninnies*

Also, 2 gods being invaded by equals is really bad attitude right? I mean, you can defeat your equal in life, can't you? I mean seriously, Balthazar and Grenth should be able to handle their traitorous followers who help their enemies to take over the land very easily right? I can, can't you?

/end sarcasm

The thing with the dragons and gods for GW2, as far as we have been told, the Gods never interact anymore. Basically, they left the world *the Exodus* but still interacted, then they start leaving more and more *GW1 happens* then they leave completely *GW2 happens*. I think, from a different perspective then your "The Gods Suck" viewpoint. The Gods might have been preparing us to be able to work on our own, without intervention from the gods. That makes the most sense to me.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wierdo1350

you also have to go with the possible assumption that the other gods might have once made a pact or something to the effect of that that they themselves cannot take out another god, so therefore, could not interfere with the destruciton of abbadon, but could only give a blessing. Hence why he was in chains by balthazzar, because they could not kill of their own without incurring some fate of their own.

I know a read a book sereies where the only way to take a god's power away from them, is to relenquish their own, and therefore loosing their 'god' status.

SO it possible that something like this was in place.

You also have to think, that abbadon wasn't really killed, his outer sheel was, and Komir took on the rest of his attributes in the final cutscene, so, in a sence a god is not killed, just an outshell is and must be taken on by another form or otherwise well cause much devestation.

All is speculation, and who knows

The pact thing makes good sense and is probably true, Nightfall has stated in a few places that you can kill the god, but not his powers, which is why Kormir had to become a new god. We killed Abaddon's "shell" or his body, not his power.

Scythykins · Jun 03, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Yar matey, there be spoilers ahead

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

Why not? Maybe the Five Gods will actually something more than sitting on their arses. I don't have high opinions of the gods as they gave only their "blessing" in my attempt to kill a god, and that I have to tidy their realms that they can't seem to control themselves.
I think the Gods need some serious competition, as they seem to have the foresight to see that some simple humans can topple gods.

I'm going to throw an idea at this one. Perhaps after the Gods left Tyria, they could not return directly to the planet. Perhaps they could only directly affect and be present in their own realm, and that's why they have to use avatars in both our realm and in the Realm of Torment. One would think that if they were truly threatened by Abaddon's resurgence, they would pull no punches. While I'm sure it was simply a gameplay mechanic such that all of a sudden you don't have an overwhelming party of 8 and a party of 5 GODS fighting poor Shiro, perhaps lore-wise it could be explained that the Gods could not directly alter things in Abaddon's realm, but they could essentially use the heroes as their avatars and grant unto them some of their powers.

Just a thought.

Free Runner · Jun 03, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scythykins

I'm going to throw an idea at this one. Perhaps after the Gods left Tyria, they could not return directly to the planet. Perhaps they could only directly affect and be present in their own realm, and that's why they have to use avatars in both our realm and in the Realm of Torment. One would think that if they were truly threatened by Abaddon's resurgence, they would pull no punches. While I'm sure it was simply a gameplay mechanic such that all of a sudden you don't have an overwhelming party of 8 and a party of 5 GODS fighting poor Shiro, perhaps lore-wise it could be explained that the Gods could not directly alter things in Abaddon's realm, but they could essentially use the heroes as their avatars and grant unto them some of their powers.

Just a thought.

The Movement of the World article suggests that Balthazar (it specifially says Balthazar, not "The Zaishen" or anything like that) actually appears on Tyria once again to create a gate into the Mists at the new temple in Lions Arch.

There is most likely another reason the gods do not return to Tyria and we will probably find it out in Guild Wars 2. All the bigger mysteries lie in "The Mists"

Oh and lets get a few things straight. In Guild Wars just because something is a god it does not mean it can just kill you by looking at you. The gods of Guild Wars are just VERY powerful beings who happen to know whats going on. Abaddon was chained down for about a thousand years. He was at his weakest when beaten. Also the fact that he was toned down because of gameplay should always be considered before saying "lololololol abaddon wus weak dragons will ownz!!!111"

Kallesh · Jun 10, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Personally I think that is not only impossible to kill a god, but to destroy the power.
In almost all polythesitic mythologys, Gods are never killed. At worst they are horribly wounded and weakened (Prometheus, Osiris etc.), and more often they are imprisoned (Titans in Greek mythology).
If it is impossible to kill a god, it would not only explain why Dhuum is still throwing his weight around ( even after his citadel in the Underworld was destroyed, and his armies defeated), and why Abaddon was only chained.
Abaddon was chained, with his powers intact because only a mortal could take the extra power to become a god (Kormir), the other gods were already, full on power...
It also means we could see Abaddon in GW2 as a Joko-esque minor villain. He could even have been made mortal by his power loss, and we finally kill him (If grenth a mortal could become immortal why cant an immortal become a mortal).
If the Gods are not directly interfering the with real world, it is because they want the mortals to be able to survive opn their own, or maybe because they see it as a game, and are watching the pieces move9or even making them move by subtle manipulation).
What astonishes me is that Abaddon conttinued to have so much power over the mortal realm, when chained with all his followers in a prison realm. He was able to get 2 demons, the corruptor of the lich whos name i cant remember and the fortune teller, out of the realm of torment, and get them into the real world. The fact he was able to persuade shiro, already a powerful being, not just as a fighter, but in sheer power (no obvious belssing had been given to him by abaddon to give hgim the power to create the jade wind), General Kayhet, and the lich to become his followers (shiro only once he had been killed and become an envoy however) Is a testament to his powers of illusion and manipulation.
I also rememeber reading somewhere that abaddon was convinced to make the gods give the mortals magic by a "seer", not the seer, so likely not the onessene in the prophecies campaign, but that is a possibility. The alien/insectisoid appearance of the seers, might also point to them being servants of Dhuum, making him the mastermind behind it all. A long shot, and an unlikely one (if it was a seer that corrupted abaddone even), but a possibility. However why the Seers give quests in Hell's precepice to kill the armageddon lords then would be a mystery.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 10, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Kallesh, you have a good point with what you say with Abaddon still living, but as a mortal. However, if he did become a mortal, then Dhuum must have followed the path because what happened with Grenth is the same as with Kormir, minus the help (that we know of). Also, if Dhuum and Abaddon were mortals then they wouldn't be living to GW2. Dhuum would have died of old age before GW1 as well. So I would say becoming weakened is a better possibility.

With the demons coming out of the RoT. The fortune teller got out 200 years before GW1, so there was plenty of time to "regather his strength to send another out." Also, Dhuum and Menzies could have helped in that, and by the time the Advisor got out to corrupt Khilbron, his chains were weakening and the world of Tyria and the RoT were close together. Also, he got out some Titans from the RoT as well.

As for Shiro's Jade Wind, that was given by Abaddon to him, through the corruption. My guess is that the words of the Fortune teller was the real corruption, not by listening, but by a spell. Abaddon's skill [Words of Madness] come into mind when thinking of this. Who's to say a mesmer didn't have this ability as well, and couldn't give Shiro the Jade Wind power through the corruption as well. Also, in the opening cinematic for Factions, Shiro absorbs something (life essence?) from the emperor, which is what I always thought to be the power behind the Jade Wind.

As for the Seer part, I disagree, but its an (although unlikely) possibility. And the whole thing that the Seers were helping the players fight the Titans, as you said in Hell's Precipice, would contradict that idea.

Kallesh · Jun 11, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I Meant mortal in the sense, that they are phsically killable, reduced to a purely physical form. I would see Abaddon in GW2 as one of the few remaining margonites (There are examples of repentant margonites, like the margonite heretic), who rather like the lich, possibly cunningly manipulates you from the sidelines, but hoopefully doesn take a too large a role to avoid the villain never dies stereotype.
Also the demon that corrupted the Vizier must have got out of the RoT a long long time ago, as evidence suggests that by the time of the cataclysm the vizier was very old (possibly "blessed"). In shards of Orr, You find out that Fendi had borkered a deal with the Vizier of Orr. Fendi was the first mate on a ship involved in the second corsair war, and the deal was at the time of the previous king of Orr. There is no telling how old the Vizier actually is by prophecies.
The only evidence that titans or pre-titan like creatures left the RoT is that the charr worshipped them, and probably met one, or a torment demon telling them how to worship the titans.
What I also do not understand is that why, when the Door of Komalie opened (aside from the fact the RoT hadn't been designed at the time), the Torment demons didn't flood out. The Foundry is full of other creatures as well as Titans, and the RoT overall at that time would have contained the whole horde of darkness; the openening of the Door of Komalie would have been a far better way for Abaddon to escape than the long convaluted plqan he devised in Nightfall. In the Time the Door was open, having known in advance from the Lich that the door would open, he could have had his other armies, not just the titans ready. Seeing as the Titan armies alone nearly Destroyed the Great Cities of Tyria, even a small assault of the Elite Hore of Drakeness would have allowed him a pre-emptive foothold on Tyria for when he was finally released by Varesh, even if we did close the door of Komalie before he could escape that time.

I think the Info on Dhuum will come in GW 2. A return to the Underworld is inevitable, especially with the increased contact between gods and Tyria (not just Balthazar's new gate, but Kormir surely would pursue a policy closely invloving mortals, I think it likely we will see direct attacks by her on Joko, and possibly Dhuum's forces in the Tomb of Primeval Kings).
I am drawing a fanciful Image of Dhuum now, completely Imagined of course, with Dryder like features, while retaining an intelligent, humanoid form, fitting for a proud and arrogant god.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 11, 2008, 12:34 PM // 12:34

The Second Great Corsair War ended in 1016 AE, so if it was the same Vizier (it never said Khilbron was the vizier at that time, so the one before him might have been corrupted as well), it is possible that the Vizier was rather young at that time. Also, the cataclysm occurred at around 1070/1071 AE, 54/55 years after the 2nd Great Corsair War ended. So a while ago before the time of GW1, yes, but a long long time ago, no. I'd say it is safe to say Razakel came about 60 years before GW1, thats still at least 140 years after the Fortune Teller, so there was time for Abaddon to regain some strength to open a portal.

Also, The Titans had to show up in the real world as well, as they were the ones who directed the Charr to attack humans. According to the Ecology of the Charr, the Burnt Warband found the Titans at Hrangmar volcano 200 years before the searing, so 202 years before the game. Knowing this, I would have to say its a good possibility that there was a "weak point" in the bonds of Abaddon 200 or so years before GW1, and could also be when Razakel escaped the RoT as well.

With the idea that there was a weak point in Abaddon's chains 200 years before GW1, the only recorded event shortly before that is Joko's fall (10 years before the Jade Wind) and Turai going to the Crystal Desert trying to ascend (4 years before).

With that in mind, and keeping in mind that an ancient Titan was also sealed away where Joko was as well, one like myself might think if there is a connection between Joko and Abaddon. And if not, what allowed Abaddon to send at least 2 agents into Tyria at the time around Joko's fall. (The ancient titan held where Joko was might or might not be the same as the one(s) that the charr meet). A minimum of 2 agents, a max of at least 4 getting out at that time.

Gmr Leon · Jun 11, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

As for Shiro's Jade Wind, that was given by Abaddon to him, through the corruption.

Incorrect. The Harvest Ceremony, when Emperor Angsiyan was killed was a religious ceremony to commune with the Five Gods and to have them impart a small portion of their power to the Emperor. Similar to in Japan where people worshiped the Emperor as God, people look towards Canthan Emperors as links to the Five Gods. At least, they did 2 centuries ago.

Anyway, Abaddon just manipulated this ceremony to his advantage, using the Five Gods' power against them in a way. Although it's never mentioned in-game and I don't have the Factions Prima Guide, it's mentioned in the guide that Shiro took part in dark ceremonies or rituals. These were probably to allow him to absorb the Five Gods' power and unknown to him, be released in such a violent way at his death. I don't think Abaddon ever intended on Shiro's survival.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

(The ancient titan held where Joko was might or might not be the same as the one(s) that the charr meet).

That's extremely unlikely, keep in mind that the Charr are miles north of Kourna, and the Gold Legion (Can't remember the actual name at the moment) found them near the Hrangmar Volcano.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kallesh

but Kormir surely would pursue a policy closely involving mortals, I think it likely we will see direct attacks by her on Joko

..Why would Kormir do that? Palawa's control over Elona is the only thing keeping the Undead Dragon of Orr and its armies from slaughtering every last Elonian. In fact, I'd say Elona is the most stable kingdom in Tyria in GW2. I say kingdom, but it may be better to say empire, but whatever.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 11, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kallesh

The only evidence that titans or pre-titan like creatures left the RoT is that the charr worshipped them, and probably met one, or a torment demon telling them how to worship the titans.

incorrect, there is a Titan that was captured by the order of Whispers, which means within the last 200 years, and most of the information that the order has is because of this titan, Saevio Proelium, introduced in the quest A Brief Introduction and found in the Domain of Pain. Also, the Charr did meet one, at the volcano I mentioned above. What is unknown is which Titan they met and where this volcano is at. Check the Ecology of the Charr for the proof that the Charr met a Titan.

Quote:

What I also do not understand is that why, when the Door of Komalie opened (aside from the fact the RoT hadn't been designed at the time), the Torment demons didn't flood out. The Foundry is full of other creatures as well as Titans, and the RoT overall at that time would have contained the whole horde of darkness; the openening of the Door of Komalie would have been a far better way for Abaddon to escape than the long convaluted plqan he devised in Nightfall. In the Time the Door was open, having known in advance from the Lich that the door would open, he could have had his other armies, not just the titans ready. Seeing as the Titan armies alone nearly Destroyed the Great Cities of Tyria, even a small assault of the Elite Hore of Drakeness would have allowed him a pre-emptive foothold on Tyria for when he was finally released by Varesh, even if we did close the door of Komalie before he could escape that time.

A saying comes to mind with this, I'll adapt it for GW... "The Gods work in mysterious ways." He could have sent more then the Titans, but Khilbron didn't know he was working for Abaddon (as evident by Khilbron saying "It worked! Just like the Prophecies fortold. It worked!" at the end of the mission Abaddon's Mouth), so sending more then the Titans would have made Khilbron go "what's going on? It should just be the Titans! What's going on?" (for the repetitive nature of the vizier

).

Quote:

I think the Info on Dhuum will come in GW 2. A return to the Underworld is inevitable, especially with the increased contact between gods and Tyria (not just Balthazar's new gate, but Kormir surely would pursue a policy closely invloving mortals, I think it likely we will see direct attacks by her on Joko, and possibly Dhuum's forces in the Tomb of Primeval Kings).
I am drawing a fanciful Image of Dhuum now, completely Imagined of course, with Dryder like features, while retaining an intelligent, humanoid form, fitting for a proud and arrogant god.

A return to the Underworld or Fissure of Woe is not inevitable. The gods are in fact less into the world of men, the portal being opened by Balthazar is the only act the gods do to interact with the world of Tyria. And I disagree with the attacks on Joko. As GmrLeon said, despite Joko being a tyrant, it is the strongest country in Tyria in terms of fighting off the Ancient Dragons. Aside from the mysterious Cantha that is, we have no clue how they are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Incorrect. The Harvest Ceremony, when Emperor Angsiyan was killed was a religious ceremony to commune with the Five Gods and to have them impart a small portion of their power to the Emperor. Similar to in Japan where people worshiped the Emperor as God, people look towards Canthan Emperors as links to the Five Gods. At least, they did 2 centuries ago.

Anyway, Abaddon just manipulated this ceremony to his advantage, using the Five Gods' power against them in a way. Although it's never mentioned in-game and I don't have the Factions Prima Guide, it's mentioned in the guide that Shiro took part in dark ceremonies or rituals. These were probably to allow him to absorb the Five Gods' power and unknown to him, be released in such a violent way at his death. I don't think Abaddon ever intended on Shiro's survival.

My apologies, that is just what I heard, forgot where, thought a NPC in RoT (along the Shiro quest chain), must be mistaken, I never got the prima guide for any GW game so I don't know any lore that came from those alone. I also don't think Abaddon intended for Shiro to survive, because he would do more damage with the Jade Wind, no matter the source of it, then he would when he lived. Also, Shiro did a lot of damage as an Envoy, so that helped Abaddon as well.

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That's extremely unlikely, keep in mind that the Charr are miles north of Kourna, and the Gold Legion (Can't remember the actual name at the moment) found them near the Hrangmar Volcano.

the actual name is the Flame Legion, but it was the Burnt Warband that found the titan. Its unlikely due to distance, but likely because the Order of Whispers could have found a way north to capture it, but that is unlikely as an idea as well, which is why I said might or might not. More likely to be the "might not"

draxynnic · Jul 08, 2008, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

You have to keep getting stronger and stronger enemies. That is evident in all games and shows. You cannot fight the big bad boss, then some weakling and expect a good "show." Also, the whole Dragons rivaling the gods does not right out ruin the "epicness" of the idea. There are many ways to go with that, like the Dragons created the gods and the gods rebelled.

I disagree. The Sorting Algorithm of Evil trope can and, where possible, should be subverted. In this case, we have a very clear means of doing so, and in fact it was done - the Great Destroyer was significantly weaker than Abaddon himself, but we had to fight the Destroyer on our own, while the argument could be made that the restraints did most of the work and we just provided the killing blow and a candidate to absorb the power - the gods, far from doing nothing, actually did most of the work from behind the scenes.

Furthermore, while it's scoffed at both in and out of the game, we don't actually know what that blessing did - that blessing may have been a special protection that prevents Abaddon from killing you simply by looking at you, that they remove in disgust if they see anyone squandering the opportunity by trying to dance with him...

The point I'm making... It's possible to ratchet up the threat while reducing the absolute power of the Big Bad by reducing the help available. Is it better to kill a god who may still be in leg irons and needs to be held down to be hit, or a powerful free demon in a hostile environment purely by your own power?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

The Movement of the World article suggests that Balthazar (it specifially says Balthazar, not "The Zaishen" or anything like that) actually appears on Tyria once again to create a gate into the Mists at the new temple in Lions Arch.

There is most likely another reason the gods do not return to Tyria and we will probably find it out in Guild Wars 2. All the bigger mysteries lie in "The Mists"

The impression I got was that the gods saw the devastation of the war that caused Abaddon to fall in the first place and decided not to fight on the world unless absolutely necessary lest the destruction be greater than it is worth. It's possible - maybe even likely - that they may have intervened once it became obvious that it was too much for mortals to handle, but why take that risk if there's still the possibility of the problem being solved without doing so?

kerpall · Jul 18, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

I think that we all really know that Dhuum is a matrix h4x0r, whom is so powerful, because he just presses "delete", and kills mobs.

I used my vast drawing ability's to draw you a near identical portrait of what dhuum looks like: