Curse

Longasc · May 25, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Guild Wars has become a guinea pig for ANet.
I do not want to say this in a negative sense, but they were and are testing concepts for the upcoming GW2.

Roughly 4 months ago the BMP was made available for purchase through the online shop. People were begging for it, we all probably remember the BMP craze.

For those who do not remember, BMP is the abbreviation for the Bonus Mission Pack:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bonus_mission_pack
The Guild Wars Bonus Mission Pack consists of four missions covering historical events: the Battle of Jahai, the Tengu Wars, the rise of the White Mantle and the Searing. It was released on November 29th 2007. The Bonus Mission Pack was made available in online retail stores, including the Guild Wars In-Game Store, from January 28, 2008.

Some days ago we had the update with the PvE/PvP skill split and lots of discussions, especially over a statement Isaiah Cartwright made in an interview.

As he put what he said in relation, it is only fair to cite him:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...iah_Cartwright
I think a lot of people are missing my point with this statement " PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things." I'm not saying that PvE players don't want a challenge, I'm saying they want to be powerful, feel epic, and overcome challenges, shooting out a fireball that kills 1 rat, vs a fireball that kills a cave full of trolls has two very different feels. I also never liked the term "PvE player" as so many different people enjoy different things both casual and hardcore, it's just always been my impression that going on an adventure to slay a dragon feels way cooler then going on an adventure to clear rats from a farmers house. Yet mechanically they are the same thing. In any case sorry if I came across offensive, was just trying to explain some of the challenges in designing a single game for multiple people with multiple goals for their playing experience. Izzy @-'---- 00:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Still, what did the BMP offer?

We got one-shot missions with very limited replay value. The main aspect was the free weapons at the end of the missions. There are no money or other item drops during the missions.

* They were designed as single-player experiences giving people an "epic" feeling of being part of major events in GW history.
* We were given a fixed skillset, fixed stats.

OK. This is for sure not a viable design for the whole of GW2 as MMO, just an idea. But one thing is clearly visible:

EPIC = KILL TONS OF MOBS WITH OVERPOWERED SKILLS.
+ a fancy cinematics backstory.

But did this always work?
We have some missions where people just tear through very easy mobs till the end, namely Turai's Story.

Then we had Togo's story. Despite featuring a totally freaking "Togo Nuke" style skill that one-shotted all guards, it took some care if you wanted to do the bonus. The normal story progress itself was very easy.

Saul's story features a very powerful Signet of Judgement and he tears through hordes of Charr after some required sneak action. Basically we nuke tons of low level Charr to feel epic, you recognize the few mixed in level 20+ Charr easily, because they are still standing when the other are down.

Gwen's Story on the other hand puts you in a weaker position and makes you flee from mobs. An interesting change!

BMP reception in general:
The BMP got tons of positive feedback, not only here on this board.

-> But now, 4/5 months later, who really bothers with the BMP missions again?

People got the weapons they wanted already. Plus we set another precedent that people will pay 9.99 bucks for this tiny amount of content. Most bought it for the weapons probably.

I see the great danger that ANet feels encouraged by the positive feedback.
Imagine the worst case scenario, which is unfortunately not too unlikely:

GW2 might feature huge zones where people group up for questing solo or in small groups such mini-missions/quest in a seperate instance.

Perhaps with set/fixed skills/build for each class. The party search feature would feature a quest list (i already heard rumors about this) that also serves as a party search feature. You got X/X members, boom, all get asked if they want to do this mission/quest now in their quest-instance.
Of course there will be tons of consumables and ursan-style skills specialized to help people farm better, too.

This is my horror vision of GW2. It would not be the first time that ANet takes a well received and good idea too far. But who really knows all their intentions behind the BMP. I would be glad if I am totally wrong this time.

Redfeather1975 · May 25, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

I remember the BMP was made on the side for fun to fill in some back history.
Then they used it to promote the webstore.
I don't remember them saying what they did in the BMP, they made last year, will be what GW2 will play like, next year.

Esan · May 25, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

I can't make head or tail of your incoherent post. What point are you trying to make?

First present your thesis, then list your arguments in support of the thesis, organised such that each argument follows from earlier arguments.

zwei2stein · May 25, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Seems like anet should not forget three things:

a) Good feedback in shortterm does not equal good feature for longterm. BMP is already kinda forgotten. We had other features which had excellent feedback but turned to be cathastrophic (6man HoH) in few weeks.
b) People want what they cannot have. Hence huge demand for BMP that had little to do with its merits.
c) Give unique, desirable, rewards that dont mess up economy anymore and people will love you. But that does not mean they love getting them.

As far as premade bars go ... i can see it. PuG problems in gws PvE are easy to see reason for: Despite somewhat easy gameplay, people tend to use suboptimal (i am being very kind here, i should call them stupid) builds. So they mess up.

Solution devised by devs: Premade bars that cant be messed up works. It dumbs game down greatly, but it works.

It they make premade bars profession specific like we have seen in BMP, it would be one step further.

It removes problem: stupid players that ruing pugging. Just imagine if your Warrior in party was forced to premade build of dslash, your monk to heal/prot hybrid, etc etc ... No more weird useless builds. You get usefull party member.

Other MMOS do this by limiting amount of skills. Chices players dont have to make are wrong choices that players does not make. Unlike GW, in other MOOs it is impossoble to load damage dealers bar with likes of flare, so you get people to suck less and become more usefull in parties.

farmerfez · May 25, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I use it when i need a weapon for a new char or a weapon for a hero. I think that's really all it's good for unless your really bored xD

GaaaaaH · May 25, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Seems like anet should not forget three things:

a) Good feedback in shortterm does not equal good feature for longterm. BMP is already kinda forgotten. We had other features which had excellent feedback but turned to be cathastrophic (6man HoH) in few weeks.
b) People want what they cannot have. Hence huge demand for BMP that had little to do with its merits.
c) Give unique, desirable, rewards that dont mess up economy anymore and people will love you. But that does not mean they love getting them.

As far as premade bars go ... i can see it. PuG problems in gws PvE are easy to see reason for: Despite somewhat easy gameplay, people tend to use suboptimal (i am being very kind here, i should call them stupid) builds. So they mess up.

Solution devised by devs: Premade bars that cant be messed up works. It dumbs game down greatly, but it works.

It they make premade bars profession specific like we have seen in BMP, it would be one step further.

It removes problem: stupid players that ruing pugging. Just imagine if your Warrior in party was forced to premade build of dslash, your monk to heal/prot hybrid, etc etc ... No more weird useless builds. You get usefull party member.

Other MMOS do this by limiting amount of skills. Chices players dont have to make are wrong choices that players does not make. Unlike GW, in other MOOs it is impossoble to load damage dealers bar with likes of flare, so you get people to suck less and become more usefull in parties.

I'm sorry but forcing players to play specific builds does not make your game fun. making builds is part of guild wars and inefficency can be fun, because its only pvw and you're not hurting anyone (if you care so much that someone isnt using Dslash, go play with your heroes).

zwei2stein · May 25, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaaaaaH

I'm sorry but forcing players to play specific builds does not make your game fun. making builds is part of guild wars and inefficency can be fun, because its only pvw and you're not hurting anyone (if you care so much that someone isnt using Dslash, go play with your heroes).

All the ursan people seems to disagree.

shoyon456 · May 25, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

All the ursan people seems to disagree.

Class diversity is what makes guildwars unique. However, Ursan beats out class diversity because most players DO NOT WANT diversity. Before ursan it was just FOW GLF 2 NUKERS, 2 MONKS, TANK, BONDER, SS, and maybe a splinter barrage.

Ever tried to get into a non ursan grp as an assassin/derv/rit/para? Para and rit can even be very beneficial, but most experienced ppl reject the idea of class diversity.

I dont want to make this into an ursan rant, but at least ursan lets all classes farm.

zwei2stein · May 25, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Class diversity is what makes guildwars unique. However, Ursan beats out class diversity because most players DO NOT WANT diversity. Before ursan it was just FOW GLF 2 NUKERS, 2 MONKS, TANK, BONDER, SS, and maybe a splinter barrage.

Ever tried to get into a non ursan grp as an assassin/derv/rit/para? Para and rit can even be very beneficial, but most experienced ppl reject the idea of class diversity.

I dont want to make this into an ursan rant, but at least ursan lets all classes farm.

I think you have no little idea how experienced players play, but i assure you, bonder monk and tank is nowhere to be found in their parties.

Most experienced people always have space in party for Rt/Para/Assassin/Mesmer/Dervs/Whatever. But granted that those people can run decent builds and cooperate. Average player just cant, he wont get to those parties regardless of profession anyway.

Any party composition can win any PvE challenge, easily. All you need are people who cooperate. That is problem in PvE where you just can't get stranger to listen to you and act a bit selflessly: bring some support skill or different attribute lines, drops useless stuff for more usefull ... etc ...

Class diversity functions well. Its players which don't.

I mean, who has patience explaining mesmer that he would be very usefull if he dropped his pet, went /rt and brought splinter and ancestors to buff assasin instead?

Antheus · May 25, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I played each mission of those exactly once.

Then I decided that they completely uninteresting, have no replay value, and are basically boring.

And while for many this "Epic" style may be what they like, I am not one of those.

But neither my, neither their voice is definitive. I played GW for "balanced" aspects.

Quote:

Ever tried to get into a non ursan grp as an assassin/derv/rit/para? Para and rit can even be very beneficial, but most experienced ppl reject the idea of class diversity.

Our guild groups ran anything. But rarely bonder, quad nuker and never any of such cookie cutter groups.

What you're talking about is lowest common denominator PUGs. "Experienced" players however rarely mixed with those.

Quote:

but at least ursan lets all classes farm

Ah, farming!

That's not the same as mission groups, is it? Those that wanted to farm rolled whatever profession was best, and they will do so again. They don't care about anything whatsoever, unless it makes their farming run 5 seconds shorter.

StormDragonZ · May 25, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

The Bonus Mission Pack was a waste for me. The only benefit I got out of it was the gold obtained for completing the "discoveries"... the gold items that could be gained served no purpose for me.

I'm one of the few people who like green items and weapons mainly because it's one whole thing... unlike the need to dig and find inscriptions and handles or whatever needed that the "clean" gold weapons happen to be.

I played each of the BMP missions once and that was it. Again, it was a complete waste...

Abedeus · May 25, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

but at least ursan lets all classes farm

Wait, wait. When you hit Ursan Blessing, you erase your class and turn into U/x. If my Mesmer uses UB, he isn't Mesmer because he has no mesmer skills on the bar. The only way someone would notice the difference between a warrior or a mesmer in ursanway is ONLY by the useless class tags and appearance. Because they both use same skills...

*Darcy* · May 25, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Guild Wars has been an on-going experiment on both ArenaNet and NCSoft's parts since the beginning.

NCSoft - can you make a good profit off a non-monthly-fee on-line game. This was a reason for both BMP offers - to attract sales to the on-line store where more profit is made by the publisher.

ArenaNet - what works best and makes the game buyers happy to play the game and tell other people to buy it. This is the reason for the constant changes throughout the life of the game. GW was in a constant open beta status.

Did I or do I now care? - NO. Great game, great fun and I don't care who gets the profit from my purchases.

shru · May 25, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I think you have no little idea how experienced players play, but i assure you, bonder monk and tank is nowhere to be found in their parties.

Most experienced people always have space in party for Rt/Para/Assassin/Mesmer/Dervs/Whatever. But granted that those people can run decent builds and cooperate. Average player just cant, he wont get to those parties regardless of profession anyway......
.....Class diversity functions well. Its players which don't.

What kind of strange little world are you living in? These are PUGS we're talking about....Diversity might as well be an old wooden ship to these people.

Lagg · May 25, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

I don't mind being a guinea pig as long as the experiments are fun.

The BMP was fun. Once.

Which brings me immediately to Anet's major weakness: they have brilliant designers but completely miss the ball concerning added value to the game.

Case in point (you saw this coming): Underworld and the Fissure of Woe.

These areas still have wide appeal three years after their release. People have been asking, pleaing, demanding, blackmailing, begging to get the other three Realms, based on the game mechanics of the other two.

Their quality, you ask?

Simple design, solid background story, not too easy, not too hard, entirely unforgiving. Extreme replayability.

These are the two areas in the game ArenaNet got completely right (well, save for a few unfinished quests and the lack of an end-boss of some sorts).

It's sad to say, but it's a level of design quality I no longer expect them to reach ever again.

Please, ArenaNet. Prove me wrong.

zwei2stein · May 25, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

What kind of strange little world are you living in? These are PUGS we're talking about....Diversity might as well old wooden ship to these people.

old old wooden ship?

But that is the point ... you cant get even basic cooperation from pugs ... sometimes you can't even make them bring essential, common sense, stuff that enables whole party to pass mission casually and have fun instead of painfull experience that eventually ends in loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

...

Case in point (you saw this coming): Underworld and the Fissure of Woe.

These areas still have wide appeal three years after their release. People have been asking, pleaing, demanding, blackmailing, begging to get the other three Realms, based on the game mechanics of the other two.

Their quality, you ask?

Simple design, solid background story, not too easy, not too hard, entirely unforgiving. Extreme replayability.

These are the two areas in the game ArenaNet got completely right (well, save for a few unfinished quests and the lack of an end-boss of some sorts).

It's sad to say, but it's a level of design quality I no longer expect them to reach ever again.

Problem: UW/FoW were succesfull experiment. There is (was) no reason for anet to repeat this experiment. It worked just well. Sorrows Furnance worked also quite well. Tokp didnt really work out and became just another farm spot.

After that they tried "Raiding for GW" style missions which feature bigger party size and rooms you "have to figure out" and "BOSS"es you also have to figure out. (aka, come up with gimmicks.) I guess it was considered at least partial success because this concept went to mass production mixed with tokp as dungeons in gwen.

After that they tried to create sorrows furnance/raid hybrid with DoA and based on its failure they tried another take on it with slavers exile.

As you see, being guinea pig is bad because succesfull experiements dont get repeated but unsuccesfull ones get.

What does it mean? Game gets crappier because just repeating good stuff is not goal. Goal is to keep reinstorducing rehashed bad stuff untill it becomes good. So eventually good content becomes oveshadowed by "failed experient" type content.

Dante the Warlord · May 25, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

BMP was a great idea and very fun to do. I believe that they should make another BMP! They should release some fun things before GW2!

Ravious · May 25, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Seems like anet should not forget three things:

a) Good feedback in shortterm does not equal good feature for longterm. BMP is already kinda forgotten. We had other features which had excellent feedback but turned to be cathastrophic (6man HoH) in few weeks.
b) People want what they cannot have. Hence huge demand for BMP that had little to do with its merits.
c) Give unique, desirable, rewards that dont mess up economy anymore and people will love you. But that does not mean they love getting them.

I think that A.Net is very well aware of how often the BMP missions are played each day... in fact all of their content.

And I think we have always been guinea pigs for the whole series:

A.Net always tries new things, tries to push boundaries, etc. The campaigns if really looked at closely are so different in style and what they offer. A.Net could have just made "more Prophecies," but they didn't.

Some things are awesome and some thing suck, but my hope is that they have learned so mucking fuch through their *first* game that GW2 will be awesome.

Longasc · May 26, 2008, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Yep, my personal problem with trying out new things is that most of their new ideas either suck or that good ideas get implemented badly.

At the very core, GW is a really great idea and an alternative to fee-based MMOs for players with little time and/or money at hand. I still hope they go with a low level cap or none at all. But it seems they rather add more of everything to the game.

My greatest fear would be that we get "spectacular" and "epic" gameplay like in the BMP. They did not make these small snippets of story because they love us, because we are such good customers and so on. I just wonder what they learnt from the BMP... that people clap and cheer to one-shot content without any replay-value? Hopefully not!

Courage! · May 26, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Roughly 4 months ago the BMP was made available for purchase through the online shop. People were begging for it, we all probably remember the BMP craze.

hehe i had people begging from me to buy it for them what great fun that was.