Curse

Alleji · May 29, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Now this is where I'm a bit confused: they don't really do this in the World of Warcraft. Granted, they've made areas a bit more accessible for raiders, but things are still very far from being "handed to you". The % of people who have seen SSC/TK is still very small, and the % of people who have even looked at Illidan is even smaller. Point being, a very large majority of the playerbase in the World of Warcraft has not seen most of the end-game content.

Three things:

1. In WoW old players pay the bills too. Every month.

2. Yes, the game does get handed to you. A couple months ago they pretty much cut the leveling time in half through quest reward buffs, difficulty nerfs and flat out reducing amount of XP needed to level by 15%. All pre-60 elites (hard mobs) have been either dumbed down or lost their elite status completely.

3. I'm pretty sure almost everyone who's the least bit serious about the game has seen SSC. I mean, of course, the random guy with a 40-something as his highest char after a year of playing hasn't seen it, but that's WoW's equivalent of people who think that 1-20 in GW is anything but the tutorial. These players don't know about ursan and probably have 3 elites capped, so they don't even benefit from dumbing down of the game.

The Way Out · May 29, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Okay, yes. This is going to be somewhat of a GW vs. WoW thread, but in a very concerning and interesting regard. I know it'll be hard to swallow since many here know that I'm a very active WoW player, but bear with me!

There have been a few recent changes and updates to the game that have undeniably made it "easier". Whether or not you like it, it's hard to deny that the skill Ursan Blessing makes the game a bit easier to grasp. Same goes for the 22 update, providing nothing but a myriad of buffs to the PvE side of the game.

I've been in somewhat heated discussions regarding these few things, being confused at why Anet has to make their game easier, and easier, and easier. One of the most logical points has been that "the newbies pay the bills". In a more appropriate wording and reasoning, there are many more inexperienced players than experienced ones, so "catering" to them will most likely net you more moolah.

Now this is where I'm a bit confused: they don't really do this in the World of Warcraft. Granted, they've made areas a bit more accessible for raiders, but things are still very far from being "handed to you". The % of people who have seen SSC/TK is still very small, and the % of people who have even looked at Illidan is even smaller. Point being, a very large majority of the playerbase in the World of Warcraft has not seen most of the end-game content.

You'd think that WoW would be doing poorly because of this, but just the opposite is true: with a huge 10 million active accounts, it's hard to deny WoW's success. This brings me to the meat of my point: If catering to the "newbie" is supposed to give you the most financial success, why is WoW doing so good, and why has ANet had to do this with Guild Wars? Why has ANet had to essentially "dumb down" the difficulty of their game? Why does ANet has to cater to the inexperienced and not Blizzard?

So to set up the boundaries: this is not about WoW being a more quality game than GW or GW being a more quality game than WoW. It's not talking about the pros/cons of each. It's about one going in the opposite direction of another. So, why is this?

Thanks for comments, and any feedback is appreciated : )

I friggin hate WoW, however, I will be the first to admit that WoW has more quality and quantity. Guild Wars has been dead for a long time. I would say a month or two into Eye of North.

Thing is, Guild Wars isn't WoW. Comparing the two is retarded. Guild Wars is unique, though.

Guild Wars reminds me of the grinding in Diablo II, now. I remember when Diablo II died and you still had tons of players just grinding away. Baffles the piss out of me, however, I still log on (after quitting yet again) and grind away.

I wish they would continue to introduce more content for Guild Wars, however, much of the mechanics of the game has been f*d up since the release of EotN. What I used to consider Elite missions are the only missions I do now, and the game has no challenge for me anymore.

Anet has never catered to the "newbies". They are a company that has to squeeze life out of their product. Most of the old players that I remember from a year to two ago have quit and moved onto other games. If Anet didn't change things, the game would fade away (hard to believe that, huh?).

GW2 is going to come out eventually. I really look forward to meeting up with all my old guildies and Alliance members. Things will be good for awhile.

In the end, if you are new to online gaming, understand that your favorite game will die eventually. It has happened to me with so many games already. Guild Wars was a great game. Now it is more of a social thing for me. I have made a lot of friends through it.

Franco Power · May 29, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

WoW pratically gives top end pvp gear and pve gear for free with Honor/arena points and Badges of justice. It's much easier to max a character in WoW (besides the levelling part) then it is to max guild wars titles.

MMORPGs are suppose to be easy because their business is run by casual gamers, hence why MMORPGs have such low computer specs requirements, that's the point "Massive" , if they made the game as challenging as a FPS or if the computer specs were top end, the game would probably not get that Massive population.

PS: You think that getting T6 or T5 is harder then achieving r12 or r5+ champion? lol . The hardest thing in WoW is to get 25 morons working together.

ChaoticCoyote · May 29, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

Why do people use the “overpowered” skills and full H/H parties then complain about wanting a challenge? I don’t use UB and I don’t care about the people who do because they don’t affect my play.

Yes, it does affect your play. If you want to do UW, or FoW, or DoA, or dunegons in EotN, guess which skills they expect you to use? And since ANet refuses to let us use full hero parties in such places, we ARE force to use those skills to play that content.

Dumbing down the game ruins it for everyone.

Chushingura · May 29, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Way Out

I wish they would continue to introduce more content for Guild Wars, however, much of the mechanics of the game has been f*d up since the release of EotN. What I used to consider Elite missions are the only missions I do now, and the game has no challenge for me anymore.

Anet has never catered to the "newbies". They are a company that has to squeeze life out of their product. Most of the old players that I remember from a year to two ago have quit and moved onto other games. If Anet didn't change things, the game would fade away (hard to believe that, huh?).

GW2 is going to come out eventually. I really look forward to meeting up with all my old guildies and Alliance members. Things will be good for awhile.

In the end, if you are new to online gaming, understand that your favorite game will die eventually. It has happened to me with so many games already. Guild Wars was a great game. Now it is more of a social thing for me. I have made a lot of friends through it.

Took the words outta my mouth. GW basically died because of EoTN. Sure, I beat it, but afterwards, I was not compelled at all to repeat all that grind just to beat it again. I've beaten the l33t areas with Ursan, I've beaten them without Ursan, with guildies, with PuGs. The only things I do now are farming once a while to collect weapons, armors or log just to see who is online and chat. If those buddies of mine left GW, I'm gone as well.

Bryant Again · May 29, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

If I don't like the difficulty in Guild Wars, I turn on HM or add UB to my bar. If I don't like the difficulty in WoW, I have no options. That's the bloody difference.

Wear lower-leveled armor, don't use certain skills, don't kite, don't heal, etc. If you find the game too easy, then there are numerous ways to "gimp" yourself.

That's what's happened in Guild Wars. By not using consumables, by not using PvE skill bars, or by not using Ursan Blessing, I am gimping myself. I am not using the tools given to me.

And I'll comment a bit on this point, though I don't want to get too far from what I've been talking about:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

PvE/PvP Split Skills: The PvE crowd has been begging for this since the first pvp focused skill update. This isn't something that an inexperienced player will even notice.

I'm part of the PvE crowd, and I certainly did not "beg" for this. All I had to do was change my skill bar to something good. If I couldn't do that, that means I didn't know my class too well, i.e. I lacked experience, i.e. I was inexperienced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I don't think they did it on purpose. I think the skills that were added to simplify other parts of the game just happened to also simplify hard mode (and, let's be honest, once you get to the 8-man areas, it becomes less and less challenging compared to NM anyway).

Seeing as skills aren't restricted in terms of areas, that's an incredible oversight on ANet's part. I highly doubt that it was on "accident", since I don't think ANet is that stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

You're not wrong, and I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I'm just pointing out that most people don't take video games seriously enough to care. It really only matters if you think that succeeding at a video game task is an actual accomplishment, and most people don't think that.

If "most people" didn't think that, than why hasn't Blizz handed the end game to those "most people?" The majority of WoW will never reach even halfway past the end game, and there's still a huge chunk of the playerbase that will never set foot in a raid. How is Blizzard able to devote so much time, effort, and polish to the endgame areas that no one's able to see and still hold onto so many players?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Whaaa? They reduced the man size requirement of [i]most]/i] of the raids before Outlands so that people could get into them and pick up the raiding gear (though there's little point now since most of the Outlands quest greens are superior to end game raiding outside of Outlands...)

Last I recalled, Onyxia - among many other old world raids - still required an attunement.

I also don't recall there ever being a "party reduction requirement" in terms of raids. I don't recall seeing any update notes at the release of TBC on the lines of "reduced the difficulty of MC, Onyxia's Lair, and every other 40 man so it can be done with a smaller level 60 group". Unless you're talking about raids requirements be lessened because of higher leveled players - in which case is a different matter.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 29, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If "most people" didn't think that, than why hasn't Blizz handed the end game to those "most people?" The majority of WoW will never reach even halfway past the end game, and there's still a huge chunk of the playerbase that will never set foot in a raid. How is Blizzard able to devote so much time, effort, and polish to the endgame areas that no one's able to see and still hold onto so many players?

They can devote more resources into those areas because they are being fueled by constant free money as part of the pay to play platform. No one can even deny the fact that at least 50% or more of any MMO's player base are solely suckered in and continue to play said games because they are grind fests and as an incentive you are left with the feeling of " I don't want to stop after all this time, effort I've put in already" and continue to play a bored filled pay to play game.

Right now I can stop playing GW and come back months later knowing my account will still be live and active, other games you'd have to wait out the billing cycle or choose to throw money away or maybe even be faced with a limited amount of inactivity until your account is rendered closed.

The Way Out · May 29, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chushingura

Took the words outta my mouth. GW basically died because of EoTN. Sure, I beat it, but afterwards, I was not compelled at all to repeat all that grind just to beat it again. I've beaten the l33t areas with Ursan, I've beaten them without Ursan, with guildies, with PuGs. The only things I do now are farming once a while to collect weapons, armors or log just to see who is online and chat. If those buddies of mine left GW, I'm gone as well.

GW's introduction of Factions made GW what we know it as now. Before then, it was just an awesome online game to play. I remember how Factions solidified that guild unity for many people. How you could have all these people logging on together to either compete with other guilds, AB, RA, GvG or Faction Farm for borders between the Kurzicks and the Luxons. I honestly believe that Guild Wars should have introduced the rivalry again in GW2. I missed those days of grinding to talk crap to other guilds. I am not a fan of them, however, GW started to die when the Seven Deadly Sins got beaten out for HzH. It just completely died for me when EotN came out. I had done everything in Guild Wars.

PvP has become stale and nearly impossible to stay committed to (I am talking about myself).

PvE is filled with new people who only know Ursan and older players who isolate with their friends (like me).

Anyway, I know my guild went from being a known guild in the faction farming community (held every friggin town on the Kurzick side at least one, if not more often)... to an awesome farming and Elite guilds (pre-EotN)... to a title hunting guild(post-EotN)... to a small collection of friends that log on because we miss each other's jokes and conversation.

Ctb · May 29, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

I highly doubt that it was on "accident", since I don't think ANet is that stupid.

Heh...

PvE/PvP skill split anyone? I think ANet seriously underestimated just how complicated the skill system was going to become once they started adding new chapters and professions. I don't know if I'd call it stupidity, but I think it really was an oversight and they just didn't realize three years ago how complicated and unmanageable the game was going to become.

Quote:

If "most people" didn't think that, than why hasn't Blizz handed the end game to those "most people?" The majority of WoW will never reach even halfway past the end game.

I think you're wrong on that. They did simplify the pre-Outlands raiding so that practically anyone could PUG it, plus they handed over Elite PvP gear to anybody with the patience to grind for it. I think they'll turn over the Outlands content to more casual people when Lich King comes out, and when the game finally starts to trail off, I think they'll turn the LK content over to the casual players as well.

[quote]Last I recalled, Onyxia - among many other old world raids - still required an attunement.[/qutoe]
Many of them had that - as well as raid-specific requests - removed in 2.4

Quote:

don't recall seeing any update notes at the release of TBC on the lines of "reduced the difficulty of MC, Onyxia's Lair, and every other 40 man so it can be done with a smaller level 60 group". Unless you're talking about raids requirements be lessened because of higher leveled players - in which case is a different matter.

No, that was my mistake. I meant to refer to the 25-man raids in TBC that are available as 10-mans instead so that it's easier to get into them.

Bryant Again · May 29, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

An interesting comment I missed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

PS: You think that getting T6 or T5 is harder then achieving r12 or r5+ champion? lol . The hardest thing in WoW is to get 25 morons working together.

I wouldn't compare the two on PvE/PvP terms. I think it'd be more accurate to compare guild rankings in GW to team ratings in WoW.

That said, I think getting one of the PvP titles in WoW would indeed show as much prestige as a R12 in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

PvE/PvP skill split anyone? I think ANet seriously underestimated just how complicated the skill system was going to become once they started adding new chapters and professions. I don't know if I'd call it stupidity, but I think it really was an oversight and they just didn't realize three years ago how complicated and unmanageable the game was going to become.

This we can partially agree on, but it's not the matter of discussion I'd like to push this towards to, since I found there were better choices and alternatives than adding a split.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I think you're wrong on that. They did simplify the pre-Outlands raiding so that practically anyone could PUG it, plus they handed over Elite PvP gear to anybody with the patience to grind for it. I think they'll turn over the Outlands content to more casual people when Lich King comes out, and when the game finally starts to trail off, I think they'll turn the LK content over to the casual players as well.

Pre-raiding only became "simplified" via the new level cap and the gear gap. So as a by-product it does becomes simplified, but not in a direct sense. But this is always a by-product of releasing new content.

The issue, however, is more about seeing the "next big thing". By the time those raids + instances become available, they lose their appeal, much like Deep/Urgoz lost theirs when DoA became released. In this sense, I am starting to slightly understand the course of action ANet took. I do, however, believe it to be done in too drastic a fashion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Many of them had that - as well as raid-specific requests - removed in 2.4

Those are TBC instances. The first to receive the removal of attunement was SSC/TK, then came Hyjal and BT, then Karazhan.

Due to the emphasis on gear in WoW, these are still far from being totally open. You'll get squashed by the trash mobs if you don't have the required gear earned from previous raids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

No, that was my mistake. I meant to refer to the 25-man raids in TBC that are available as 10-mans instead so that it's easier to get into them.

Similar to saying "40-man raids in TBC that are available as 25-mans instead"? I didn't know that they were originally going to be released as 40 mans. I've found the 25 man to be a bit more preferable because there's less people sitting on their ass this time around. While this does make it a bit stricter in terms of gear requirements, I think it balances out in terms of total effort.

Ctb · May 29, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

but not in a direct sense

Incorrect: they nerfed the world quest-related elites or, in some cases, completely removed their elite status. Even quests now labeled (group) are often soloable with decent DPS.

Regarding the rest of the comments we've been tossing back and forth, I think we've beaten it down to mostly a difference in opinion, so I won't comment on them specifically.

Red Sonya · May 29, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

i dont want a watered down version of WoW, for GW2.

Well I certainly don't want a repeat of the same GW so what is there left to be, but, a watered down version of WOW?

We've already seen the focus in NF and most especially GWEN that this IS their focus a watered down version of WOW with not so heavy on the "i'm better than you because" lean, I think it will be a nice balance of both that is what I'm wanting.

Shuuda · May 29, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

so what is there left to be

A version of GW that doesn't screw over PvP, and doesn't kill PvE balance with a single skill and still retains challenge. Something along them lines would be perfect.

Alia Stormkiller · May 29, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

A version of GW that doesn't screw over PvP, and doesn't kill PvE balance with a single skill and still retains challenge. Something along them lines would be perfect.

That is fine and would be ideal.

Bryant Again · May 29, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Incorrect...

I have been speaking in reference to endgame raids and the like. It's quite apparent the nerfs they put in place for leveling from 20-60.

Franco Power · May 30, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

An interesting comment I missed:

I wouldn't compare the two on PvE/PvP terms. I think it'd be more accurate to compare guild rankings in GW to team ratings in WoW.

That said, I think getting one of the PvP titles in WoW would indeed show as much prestige as a R12 in GW.

You're kidding me right ? There's dozens of gladiators in WoW and arena was only released about a year ago, guild wars has been out for 3, how many r12s do you know? Sure the wow population is about 3 bigger, but still, there's atleast 10-20 gladiators for every rank 12.

Besides, haven't you read my Merciless Gladiator guide?

Step1) Roll Druid, Warrior or Warlock
Step2) If W find Druid, if Druid find W
Step3) Join arena and roll face on the keyboard
Step4) Profit

Honestly man, I don't play GW anymore, but i got my tiger and that took 100x more effort + time then getting a 2300+ arena team...

Alleji · May 30, 2008, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That said, I think getting one of the PvP titles in WoW would indeed show as much prestige as a R12 in GW.

lolright

Arena is a joke. Yes, I realize HA is now a joke too, but arena is a whole different level of "joke". Compared to WoW, HA is near-perfectly balanced.

Well, I guess I would be impressed by a mage or a priest gladiator (or another weaker class), but you know what? I've never seen a mage gladiator on my server. I've seen dozens of warlocks and druids. In WoW, your arena title actually shows what class you played, so if you're a warlock or a warrior wearing the gladiator title that's effectively putting a banner over your head that says "IWAYED MY TIGER"

WoW does not deserve to be discussed as a serious PvP game, no matter how much Blizzard tries to hype it up as one. When all of PvP is based around not letting your opponent play the game, how can you take it seriously?

enter_the_zone · May 30, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Okay, yes. This is going to be somewhat of a GW vs. WoW thread, but in a very concerning and interesting regard. I know it'll be hard to swallow since many here know that I'm a very active WoW player, but bear with me!

There have been a few recent changes and updates to the game that have undeniably made it "easier". Whether or not you like it, it's hard to deny that the skill Ursan Blessing makes the game a bit easier to grasp. Same goes for the 22 update, providing nothing but a myriad of buffs to the PvE side of the game.

I've been in somewhat heated discussions regarding these few things, being confused at why Anet has to make their game easier, and easier, and easier. One of the most logical points has been that "the newbies pay the bills". In a more appropriate wording and reasoning, there are many more inexperienced players than experienced ones, so "catering" to them will most likely net you more moolah.

Now this is where I'm a bit confused: they don't really do this in the World of Warcraft. Granted, they've made areas a bit more accessible for raiders, but things are still very far from being "handed to you". The % of people who have seen SSC/TK is still very small, and the % of people who have even looked at Illidan is even smaller. Point being, a very large majority of the playerbase in the World of Warcraft has not seen most of the end-game content.

You'd think that WoW would be doing poorly because of this, but just the opposite is true: with a huge 10 million active accounts, it's hard to deny WoW's success. This brings me to the meat of my point: [U]If catering to the "newbie" is supposed to give you the most financial success, why is WoW doing so good, and why has ANet had to do this with Guild Wars?[/U] Why has ANet had to essentially "dumb down" the difficulty of their game? Why does ANet has to cater to the inexperienced and not Blizzard?

So to set up the boundaries: this is not about WoW being a more quality game than GW or GW being a more quality game than WoW. It's not talking about the pros/cons of each. It's about one going in the opposite direction of another. So, why is this?

Thanks for comments, and any feedback is appreciated : )

It's the "Oh shite, we promised them stuff in GW2 for filling their GW HoM" syndrome. WoW has no need for accessible end game content yet, it has no sequel to push. Several gradual changes in PVE (skills, hero AI and mob AI) have been making it easier pretty much since GW2 was announced.

I'd also have something to say about the Factions elite missions allegedly being "accessible".

Akaraxle · May 30, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Now this is where I'm a bit confused: they don't really do this in the World of Warcraft. Granted, they've made areas a bit more accessible for raiders, but things are still very far from being "handed to you". The % of people who have seen SSC/TK is still very small, and the % of people who have even looked at Illidan is even smaller. Point being, a very large majority of the playerbase in the World of Warcraft has not seen most of the end-game content.

I'd like to butt in and share my personal experience on this subject. A big part of the reason why the % of people who hasn't seen endgame raids is so small (I belong to such %) is because the servers are "advanced" already and we cannot find groups for instances that are required to equip for such raids. I'm having a really hard time trying to gear up for Kharazan and no one of the guilds I've been in helped me consistently, for WoW sucks people into the grind threadmill where every split second mustn't be wasted.

In WoW's case, being "inexperienced" can't be helped: it's not like I want to be inexperienced. In GW's case, lately Anet has been catering to "dumb" people.

P.S. It should be noted that I'm neither a tank nor a healer, and it all depends on the server.

Ctb · May 30, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Besides, haven't you read my Merciless Gladiator guide?

I saw a post in the WoW forums once about a 2v2 match where one team had rolled two Druids to heal each other on the assumption nobody would devote the time to killing them and just quit, causing a de facto win.

The person posted the result - it took several hours, and the lock on the other team had single-handledly done well over 1 million damage, but the Druids eventually lost.

Quote:

In GW's case, lately Anet has been catering to "dumb" people.

No, ANet has been catering to people who haven't been willing or able to devote the time required by the original game mechanics.

Frankly, most of the non-storyline portions of Guild Wars are pure, unadulterated stupid (and the storyline portions were never that hard to begin with). Grinding out ectos and shards for prestige Fissure armor, for example, isn't hard, just extremely time-consuming. Nobody who's picked up Fissure armor post-Prophecies did it due to any skill, they did it because they have ludicrous amounts of spare time on their hands. Things like Ursan are just catering to those of us who don't care to pledge our lives to a stupid digital graphic (although I still don't have the patience to grind out the required amounts, even with the changes...)