Curse

DutchSmurf · May 27, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle.delphi

they HAVE to have new players to make money, it's a reality, and one way is making things mroe accesable to new players.

I don't see how A (more new players) follows out of B (easier PvE). To notice the PvE got easier, you have to be around before it got easier. And if you didn't have the game yet, you can't know the game got made easier. Or that the game was too hard before.
You don't get new players (=new money) by making your game easier. You can make your new players happier maybe, but that is about it.

Kattar · May 27, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I think it's the endless strive for perfection Bryant. That's the reason things are so sought after - they're so rare.

A. Noid · May 27, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

GW is a dead product line.

To complain about Ursan is kinda silly at this juncture.

The PvE/PvP skills are nothing more than a piece of code to test for GW2.

Is this really that hard to comprehend?

-ANoid

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

*snippet*

...With WoW you can eventually reach any content. Carrot always seems somehow close. You CAN kill Illidian if you play a bit more. You CAN do any imba dungeon if you out level it. Hell, you wait for next expansion and and you get better items from quests than from any raid you could do before and you get 10 levels so you can kick some Onyxia ass with 5 people..

It's a good idea, when you're not max level. While "outleveling" can be used in the context of being under max level, that strategy is no longer applicable once you reach the max level raids. At that point, you can only complete the dungeons through 1. Skill, and 2. Gear (which is obtained through skill).

If you can just wait until the expansion to outlevel the content, then why are people bothering to enter the raids now? Reasons for that include self-accomplishment and egotism, not to mention that people aren't too impressed with you being able to clear a 2 year old dungeon. This point, however, can be heightened up a bit, and I'll be thinking more in-depth about it.

(And that isn't always applicable. I've seen 30 man raids at lvl 70 wipe in Naxx.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

I think it's the endless strive for perfection Bryant. That's the reason things are so sought after - they're so rare.

Hopefully, this strive isn't so "dumbed down" in GW2. Right now, that's my largest concern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. Noid

GW is a dead product line.

To complain about Ursan is kinda silly at this juncture.

The PvE/PvP skills are nothing more than a piece of code to test for GW2.

Is this really that hard to comprehend?

-ANoid

No complaints about Ursan in this thread (for once), just concerned and confused about ANet's current direction. And I'd much rather ANet choose a different testing ground for GW2 other than GW1 >: ( People are still playing this game, ya know!

Buster · May 27, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

It's quite simple. It's the philosophy that If more can comprehend the game the more will play. It's not rocket science here.

Kattar · May 27, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Well do have Slaver's, Urgoz, Deep, etc. though. Most people don't do those. Most average people anyway.

But yeah, it's not the same as raiding. It's close, but not so much.

upier · May 27, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

The big question is how will Blizzard react once they announce WoW2.
Then we might do a reasonable comparison.

My guess is that A.net is just trying to squeeze out the last buck that they can from a game that IS dying. I mean seriously - does one buy a MMO KNOWING that they will only play it for a year?

Abedeus · May 27, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Wait, wait. You are telling me that the more players, the better? So Quantity > Quality? Then... WoW IS better than GW, you admit it. Because if Quan > Qual, then WoW is 10 times better. Right?

The word hypocrisy is thrown around a lot these days...

Quote:

Well do have Slaver's, Urgoz, Deep, etc. though. Most people don't do those. Most average people anyway.

Rewards are crap. No point in doing when you have the statue.

Ctb · May 27, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

follow this train to eventually quit of gw to never return because "only no life kids can do highend stuff in gw"

Not to be nasty or anything, but that's absolute true not just in GW, but any MMO.

"Successful" MMO players seem to have this notion that they've managed to accomplish something special, but the fact remains that in all popular MMOs to date, the only measure of success is:

1. Patience.
2. The spare time to apply it.

The reason instances and leveling in WoW were simplified and imba added to the skills in GW is quite straightforward: the majority of people play games for fun and we're not going to sit and stare at a damn computer screen for hours each time we hit some obscenely challenging new roadblock. If I have to obligate more than a half hour block of my spare time to a video game, chances are I'm not going to finish it because I have real responsibilities.

Like it or not, the majority are not on your side. Most people are not going to sit and click away for hours to figure out some challenging new task put before them when the only reward is winning a video game, so the game has to simplify to open up content for everyone else at some point. It happened in EQ, EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars - it will happen to AoC some day too. But, hey, if all this bothers you, jump ship to AoC or wait for WH40K. Get in while everything is still fresh and new if being at the top of video game pile is so important to you. There's no shortage of new video games around to "prove" yourself on.

LockerLoad · May 27, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Firtsly Blizzard misrepresents the number of paying accounts. I'd wager many of the ten million "active" accounts are trial accounts.

GW is in it's EOL period. A replacement has been anounced and is in development, which means A-Net isn't really concerned if people still want to play this game in a year or so. They are Noobing it up to court new players and grab some fast cash,

The original stated intend of skill over time played or money spent was perverted long ago. Proof is that A-net sells PVP skill packs and pre-order special items. It's like an item mall disguised.

The original game(prophecies) had a tutorial(presearing) and various trials(ascension infusion) which separated nooblets from advanced players by confining them to different worlds. Now everything in the house is for sale.

Like it or not this is A-nets test ground for GW2 ideas. Notice the massive lag spikes lately?

Symeon · May 27, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Time and time again the 'newbies bring in the cash, newbies should be the focus' argument is raised - whenever ANet makes a change that upsets the veterans but pleases the majority, the conclusion always seems to be 'that's business for you'. But what, exactly, does making the game easier have to do with attracting new players?

The whole 'dumb down the game' philosophy for Guild Wars is flawed. People are attracted to MMOs by content - and to some extent grind - not low difficulty. If a game is easy, you'll get bored of it quickly, so it's less value for money. When a person buys a Guild Wars title for the first time, do they think "Yay, this game has Ursan Blessing, it's going to be so easy!"? No, they probably don't even have a clue what it is. And once they've bought the game, they've handed over their money just like the veteran has, so what's the point of catering to one more than the other at that point? Who cares if they quit? With a business model that focuses on making money from new releases and not through regular payments, clearly the optimum strategy would be to be effectively market each new game, and not care about players quitting in between.

Whereas in WoW's case, making changes that benefit the new player would arguably be more important, because if the new player finds the game too hard or repetitive, he'll quit, and no more money will come from his pocket. Yet WoW employs the opposite strategy to Guild Wars. One could say, however, that WoW's vast amount of content counterbalances any need to appease new players, because the game is designed in a way that sucks players in whatever their gameplay preferences may be.

Perhaps we overstate the extent to which ANet has made the game easier. If the game had had a monthly fee, we'd probably see far more frequent examples of 'catering to the masses'. With the current business model, ANet has to walk a tightrope between what makes the money (content-filled new releases), and what I see as a genuine desire to improve the game and maintain interest through free updates, while trying somewhat to stick by their original visions. They do seem to have focused a lot more on the latter than other companies, which could be seen as either a lack of business sense, or a unique and admirable attachment to their game, or both.

Zonzai · May 27, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

O.P. - I think that you are mixing apples and oranges there. Explorable content is different from character abilities.

Having been around since the original BWE's I can say that GW has certainly gotten easier in many regards. But not in regards to builds. If anything it has gotten more complex. What skills like ursan do is remedy that - cheaply.

Honestly, I hate ursan and I think it is bad for the game inthe long run. However, at the same point I understand why it is so appealing. I know several people who have tried GW and been daunted by skills and eventually quit because of them (and a few other issues like the linear gameplay).

So yes it is true that they are catering to newer players. The PvE/PvP skill thing kind of does the same thing. (Speaking of which, I really worry that they are going to open a can of whoopass on PvP skills sometime soon.)

As for the difference between WoW and GW... Skills in WoW are infantile when compared to GW. They don't need to cater to new players by dumbing it down. If they dumbed it down any more the game would play itself.

As far as raids go, the reason that so few people do raids is because after a couple runs they get old. And by the time you get to that point in WoW you are already so bored with the game you'd rather go play something else... like GW. (Not that the same sort of thing doesn't happen in GW mind you.)

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The big question is how will Blizzard react once they announce WoW2.
Then we might do a reasonable comparison.

They are announcing Wrath of the Lich King, though, which is also announcing "hey all of your gear is about to be obsolete in a couple months". Granted, they have removed attunements from a lot of the dungeons, but I don't see people "rushing in" to see them, not to mention the Sunwell raid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Wait, wait. You are telling me that the more players, the better?

No, in fact I state that a couple times in the OP. I'm asking why has WoW been able to hold onto and acquire so many players without dumbing their game down drastically?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

The reason instances and leveling in WoW were simplified and imba added to the skills in GW is quite straightforward: the majority of people play games for fun and we're not going to sit and stare at a damn computer screen for hours each time we hit some obscenely challenging new roadblock. If I have to obligate more than a half hour block of my spare time to a video game, chances are I'm not going to finish it because I have real responsibilities.

But you know what you could've used in Guild Wars besides imba-skills? Having actual skill and individual knowledge of what to do. I've beaten every single campaign in Guild Wars not through overpowered skill bars, but through knowing my shit.

Time isn't the only factor when it comes to a raid or instance. It could take time if you haven't had much experience with it, sure, but if you know what to expect and what to do at each encounter, then time is likely to become a non-issue. It's how my casual raiding guild (quite an oxymoron, no?) was able to reach BT without pointing dents in our schedules.

Leveling was eased in WoW because with a level 80 cap on the way, it'll start to feel a bit burdensome to go through all that content. The length of leveling from 1-70 was good before, it's just been optimized for 80. And raids and instances have, at most, seen slight overhauls. Nothing to the extent of "handing it" to the players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Firtsly Blizzard misrepresents the number of paying accounts. I'd wager many of the ten million "active" accounts are trial accounts.

Edit: Okay, linking to that made me feel a bit like an ass for some reason, so I'll just quote the definition:

Quote:

World of Warcraft's Subscriber Definition

World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.

I'll read the rest when I get home, thanks for the replies Zonzai and King.

RiKio · May 27, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

If catering to the "newbie" is supposed to give you the most financial success, why is WoW doing so good, and why has ANet had to do this with Guild Wars? Why has ANet had to essentially "dumb down" the difficulty of their game? Why does ANet has to cater to the inexperienced and not Blizzard?

1- Because people might find WoW more challenging.

Easy things ( Ursan, Save yourselves motherf%&ers) are funny, but, as the time pass, you start to find them boring, you want to prove your skill, but then you realise that you have nothing but overpowered stuff. So you move to PvP, but you start being tired at this, and you want to quit to a more relaxing enviromment, like PvE...but you want moar challenges.

And then, you find WoW where, according to your information, there are some raids very challenging, that require skill.

I dont play WoW, but I have a friend that plays it, and he tell me beautiful things about the game, especially regarding to the PvP part

O______________O
2-The Global Association of Parents ( GAP) and Anet have a secret complot, in which Anet make a game with retarded players and a retarded difficulty for slaving the minds of the childs, so parents can find more time for doing certain stuff that only parents do.

3- Well, Anet is relatively new to the videdogame merchandising, so they are testing new tipes of merchandise.

Also, I have a feeling about this. Is the game easy because Anet had took the relevant information for develope GW2? Is PvE overpowered because they have seen everything about doing a good PvE game and decide to stop the process, inserting OP stuff? Are they still testing PvP?

PD: I luv cospirantions

Ju-On · May 27, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Some people have a life, and don't or can't spend hours on end completing a dungeon/quest etc. GW is perfect for those people. Like some one else posted, if its too easy for you then don't use the buffed skills, the other point about setting your own skill levels was a good idea.

Longasc · May 27, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

I occasionally play WoW, too...

I think the main difference is that GW has primary class + secondary class plus lots of build choices, and very flexible team build options.

Yet people still try to look for archetypes and "traditional" style tank-healer-nuker parties that do not really excel or work in GW at all.

In WoW, I am a Warlock - I can play Affliction, Demonology, SL/SL, Destruction. My roles are clearly defined, banish elementals and nuke mobs. Rather limited compared to GW, but you automatically get some training and experience in your role .

People get to know their class while levelling up. In GW, people have potentially more variety and choices, even if they do not make use of it. But people never really learn how to make use of the options GW offers them, especially if some skills outshine others a lot.

WoW has definitely more challenging PvE areas, only EOTN areas come close in terms of challenge. OK, some older areas were dumbed down and you can easily solopwn former elite mobs... but they greatly improved the formerly dull Duskwallow Marshes, they now give great XP and close a small gap in the levelling progress from 40-50, as an alternative to Stranglethorn.

But they did not add ursan blessing to the game, no company giving a shit about their game would do. ANet did it. We can also notice that some EOTN quests feature huge crowds of enemy mobs of level 8 and a few level 20s, maybe to give us the feeling of plowing through an army.

I think they are on the right way, if they would just tune down many easy button skills. Too many useless skills, but too many of the few skills that can break the game by making it too easy to be enjoyable.

The worst thing they did was turning into just another mmo - time spent equals more and more progress and power, skill is no longer necessary. It never really was, but now it became really pathetic.

I can only say if they think they can entice people with this for long, they will fail miserably. It does not keep people interested for too long if everything is just time consuming easy grind.

But I just cannot stand playing WoW again on the other hand, at its very heart it is still nothing else but the same stone old levelquest formula of EverQuest. Highly polished, but still not really my favorite kind of game.

Edit: And yeah, raids are very time consuming. Assembling a raid can often take longer than I wanted to play actually, so I am glad that there is GW. Especially hardcore raid guilds demand a lot of online time, and I do not want to raid on a fixed schedule. My friend Steve does so in Addicted, and not everyone can enjoy spending so much time to get an item or the DKP for it.

Div · May 27, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

WoW earns money from retaining customers (aka the more experienced). GW can only earn money by getting new customers, and to do so needs to cater to the noobs.

Alex the Great · May 27, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

this is looking at it from only a pve standpoint.

WoW pvp is pretty much AB, or TA. GW pvp is hardcore (emphisis on hard) compared to WoW.

Skill+ Builds > Gear+ Time

A. Noid · May 27, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No complaints about Ursan in this thread (for once), just concerned and confused about ANet's current direction. And I'd much rather ANet choose a different testing ground for GW2 other than GW1 >: ( People are still playing this game, ya know!

Maybe not intently, perhaps I read too much into your OP.

I agree to an extent regarding the testing ground...but how many folks will whine about not getting into beta. FWIW, this is pre-alpha and ANet is still 'technically' adding to the game.

I really wouldn't read too much into the current state of GW unless you're interested in GW2. There are many lessons I believed learned re: GW1. I am looking forward to GW2 whilst biding my time in game.

I would suggest this, however. What if the HoM was miscalculated and thru datamining the dev's determined it was taking too long to fill.
They could A: lower the requirements and piss off a boat load who put in alot of work, or B: ease up PvE play and allow the left-behinds a chance to catch-up.

Seems plausable. Dunno.

-ANoid

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

this is looking at it from only a pve standpoint.

WoW pvp is pretty much AB, or TA. GW pvp is hardcore (emphisis on hard) compared to WoW.

Skill+ Builds > Gear+ Time

Yes, this is only from a PvE standpoint. It's hard to beat the level of polish ANet has reached with GW GvG. I also bolded that last point because in GW it's no longer entirely applicable...

@A. Noid: Some people see the words "Blessing" and "Ursan" and red flags immediately go off, so np : P But as bitter as I am about them "using GW1 as a testing ground", I know that it's only going to make GW2 that much more awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Edit: And yeah, raids are very time consuming. Assembling a raid can often take longer than I wanted to play actually, so I am glad that there is GW. Especially hardcore raid guilds demand a lot of online time, and I do not want to raid on a fixed schedule. My friend Steve does so in Addicted, and not everyone can enjoy spending so much time to get an item or the DKP for it.

Assembling a raid? You don't pug them, do you?? I will add that I'm in a *very* laidback guild: things are done on a "who needs this?" basis, we've not been a huge fan of DKP.

Glad to see the discussion isn't as heated as I feared. I hope I don't come off as a prick to anyone here...?