Curse

Abnaxus · Jun 11, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

As I totally disagreed on Avarre's letter, I support 100% the letter of the OP.

Alex the Great · Jun 11, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I love guild wars.

no complaints.

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

Yes but look at the consequences of this, their sales figures have continually risen. I think they assumed that their original sales strategy hook had caught all the fish interested and now they change their bait to attract the other customers available.

Their sales figure has *always* been continually rising. Whether or not because of all of these PvE boosts is up in the air, but I'll have you know that "new powerful PvE skills" is not one of the things mentioned on any of the boxes.

flclempire · Jun 11, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

lol, skill tweaks =/= new content. I don't expect updates to the game often since we don't pay to play, but damn.... The last thing they added that I could participate in was the bonus mission pack and I got that free with GWEN. The only reason I play GW1 anymore is to get the few more titles I am close to getting. Then it can rot when GW2 comes out.

Spangly_boy · Jun 11, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I'd vote here for a thread merge here to be honest, we are covering the same ground with both. I thought i would share a different view and hopefully that has been digested by you. Its been graced with Community Manager involvement and thats what was needed.

At the end of the day, both threads are showing that the GW playing community adore this game and want the best from it.

Thanks for your time

Spangly

WNL · Jun 12, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Hi, I'm old timer for GW, started in World Preview Event and have 4,000+ hrs in /age, I hardly go to the forums so I considered a lurker, I can only agree one or two of Avarre's points though, and generally agreed on Spangly's points with a few exceptions on his part.

What baffles me is that before this drama, people use to want PvE/PvP to be separated, but now it has come to wanting the merge back again, PvEonly skills was the answer to the separation, but Avarre's point on emphasis towards PvE skills to the point of pushing regular GW skills to the side does have some merit to it.

Consumables- This baffles me even more when people complain about this, I like the fact that they make life easier when you need some laid back gameplay and they are not free.

I don't see the game being easier to newbies with EotN, and from my observation, players went to other games to get new and different game experience, not because of the changes.

Greedy Gus · Jun 12, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Avarre's letter only represents a relatively small portion of the entire community

Relative to what? This (exactly opposite) thread which has 9 times fewer posts? It seems to me that in the entire forum community, a relatively large portion of the players feel represented by a non-tactful open complaint letter.

And for every player who is happily oblivious actually playing the game (the reasoning typically given for more negativity expressed on forums), anecdotally I have to estimate that there is at least one player who quit the game already without looking back (being very generous here too).

tmakinen · Jun 12, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

It seems to me that in the entire forum community, a relatively large portion of the players feel represented by a non-tactful open complaint letter.

Ah, that's where I disagree. Guru population << player population, and that's not even an opinion. No matter which group you get together here, it will always be a small minority of the entire community.

Edit: I don't believe for a second that the guru population is a representative sample of the entire population, either.

ilipol · Jun 12, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Relative to what? This (exactly opposite) thread which has 9 times fewer posts? It seems to me that in the entire forum community, a relatively large portion of the players feel represented by a non-tactful open complaint letter.

It's a known fact that unhappy customers/consumers are more vocal about it than happy ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

And for every player who is happily oblivious actually playing the game (the reasoning typically given for more negativity expressed on forums), anecdotally I have to estimate that there is at least one player who quit the game already without looking back (being very generous here too).

If all those people quit the game without looking back there would be much much less complains in forums.

I could say the GW equivalent in rl is having bought a car - and 3 upgrades to it's engine - never having paid for fuel and service, and after 1000000 miles complain to the manufacturer that it doesn't work the way you want it...

Avarre · Jun 12, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilipol

I could say the GW equivalent in rl is having bought a car - and 3 upgrades to it's engine - never having paid for fuel and service, and after 1000000 miles complain to the manufacturer that it doesn't work the way you want it...

Not the best analogy. It's more like you have the car, but every time you go in for free servicing, the mechanics break something. You can go up to them and say 'guys, I've gotten a lot of use out of this car, that's awesome, but you guys are really messing up your job as mechanics by making this thing not run', and they reply 'oh, we're making the car better for people who can't drive. By the way, have you heard we're bringing out a new car model?'

It would be a bit radical to say that everyone will be upset. But the customers who enjoyed driving the car are going to be a little concerned about what's coming out next.

Anyways, regarding this thread, it's good for other viewpoints to be expressed and discussed. That's why I put the letter on the forum rather than e-mailing. I just hope ANet has a better way of handling all the parts of the community in Guild Wars 2.

arcanemacabre · Jun 12, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilipol

I could say the GW equivalent in rl is having bought a car - and 3 upgrades to it's engine - never having paid for fuel and service, and after 1000000 miles complain to the manufacturer that it doesn't work the way you want it...

...because the manufacturer keeps making small changes here and there eventually changing it from a sports car to a family sedan with a broken muffler.

ilipol · Jun 12, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Not the best analogy. It's more like you have the car, but every time you go in for free servicing, the mechanics break something. You can go up to them and say 'guys, I've gotten a lot of use out of this car, that's awesome, but you guys are really messing up your job as mechanics by making this thing not run', and they reply 'oh, we're making the car better for people who can't drive. By the way, have you heard we're bringing out a new car model?'

The analogy is fine ... have you seen how often car companies change their models? And we are talking about a toy that's in the $ thousands... do you expect a 40$ game to last forever?

And yes like every consumer product it's trying to be friendly to most people ... otherwise go buy an F1 car.

Spangly_boy · Jun 12, 2008, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Analogy's are ace, and what you said above makes lots of sense Avarre.

Avarre · Jun 12, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilipol

And yes like every consumer product it's trying to be friendly to most people ... otherwise go buy an F1 car.

I think the issue people have is that it originally was an F1, and yet maintenance is turning it into something else. ANet isn't obligated to keep the game the same, and have full right to make changes, but not everyone likes what is being done. One would think that the most devoted part of the playerbase, which received the most support at first, would be the valued part of the community (referring to competitive PvP), but that has not been the case.

Let me also mention that the hardcore fanbase is valuable to ANet. They provide the best in-game advice as to what to fix regarding balance. You can say 'oh, their viewpoint is limited', but the fact remains they understand the game better than most and thus their feedback is invaluable. The hardcore fanbase also serves to advertise the game - if you have people dedicated to your product, they're going to want their friends to join, and as, ideally, the turnover rate of hardcore players is low, that's a lot of continual influence. ANet hurting a group of people who want to help them as much as possible with their game seems a bit short-sighted.

There is definitely no mutual exclusiveness in catering to hardcore and casual gamers. This kind of thing just needs to be planned out well by ANet from the start with regards to how their game will develop.

tmakinen · Jun 12, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Car analogies can only go so far because they miss the essential restriction that there is just one product that everybody is using.

An amusement park would be a much better case. There is one park which is quite unlike every other park out there because a single admission fee will grant you a lifetime access to everything in the park. After 3 years of freeloading some old-timers complain that the management is doing bad decisions by modifying the roller-coaster so that handicapped people can ride it too, or toning down the scares of the ghost train so that kids can ride it without getting nightmares.

You are claiming that since you are using the park more than its managers, you are more knowledgeable than them about what is fun and what is not. Might be true, might not be. However, what you ignore is that they have a business to run, and they must be pretty good at what they are doing if the park is still open three years down the road, with a business model that others though would never work.

ilipol · Jun 12, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

One would think that the most devoted part of the playerbase, which received the most support at first, would be the valued part of the community (referring to competitive PvP), but that has not been the case.

They are most devoted because ... ? They spent more hours in-game? They spent more money for the game? Your assumption is subjective.
And because someone receives more attention at the beginning doesn't mean a company has to keep on doing that - that makes him sound like a pampered child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Let me also mention that the hardcore fanbase is valuable to ANet. They provide the best in-game advice as to what to fix regarding balance. You can say 'oh, their viewpoint is limited', but the fact remains they understand the game better than most and thus their feedback is invaluable. The hardcore fanbase also serves to advertise the game - if you have people dedicated to your product, they're going to want their friends to join, and as, ideally, the turnover rate of hardcore players is low, that's a lot of continual influence. ANet hurting a group of people who want to help them as much as possible with their game seems a bit short-sighted.

Again you are subjectively defining who is "hardcore" and who isn't. And who brings in more people... And you are missing the fact that your opinions maybe biased towards what you think is good - ignoring what might be good for the "ignorant" mass of consumers. Of course you realize that if the game sold 15k "hardcore" copies it would be dead in 6 months...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

There is definitely no mutual exclusiveness in catering to hardcore and casual gamers. This kind of thing just needs to be planned out well by ANet from the start with regards to how their game will develop.

Ideally I hope that can happen in GW2. As for GW - in life most times you have to be ready to compromise a bit.

Avarre · Jun 12, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilipol

They are most devoted because ... ? They spent more hours in-game? They spent more money for the game? Your assumption is subjective.

Those who spent the most effort in understanding and playing the game. The Guild Wars community radio shows, parts of the upper tier PvP community (who have finished PvE as well), those who show the most familiarity and presence in the game. These are the players who actively comment on the game and how it can be improved. I know lots of others do too who don't fall into those categories, and I would count those as well.

To me, that shows more devotion than a guy who buys the game and farms for 5000 hours while getting 30 max titles.

Zorgy · Jun 12, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/

"...Finally, you can make everyone happy, but you can’t make everyone happy all the time. It is risky to try to make decisions that appeal to all players equally. Don’t fall into the trap of making decisions based on what causes the least amount of pain, because this can lead to a game that is just kind of “okay” and doesn’t really excite anybody. When you have a large, active, and passionate player base, every decision you make, every change to the game, no matter how convinced you are that it makes the game strictly better, will piss someone off, and they’ll post about it, blog about it, rant to the press about it, loudly and publicly predict that this is the “beginning of the end” of your game, and send hate mail to your community and support teams. MMO developers have to have thick skins, but always remember that if one of your players is angry with you, it is because he really cares about the game, and that’s much healthier for you than apathy. Go with your instincts and make the right decision for your game..."

Cacheelma · Jun 12, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Ah, that's where I disagree. Guru population << player population, and that's not even an opinion. No matter which group you get together here, it will always be a small minority of the entire community.

Edit: I don't believe for a second that the guru population is a representative sample of the entire population, either.

Yeah, so now we have 2 minority groups with 2 viewpoints.

Do I need to tell you which viewpoint has more supporters here?

Spangly_boy · Jun 12, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Do I need to tell you which viewpoint has more supporters here?

Please don't be so Barumphing.
Does it really matter????? Its not a competition.

We are all being constructive in our own way, its not about supporters or numbers, everyone is rallying to the same conclusion and looking for the same outcomes.