Curse

Kashrlyyk · Jun 05, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

... The original design has been violated - that is a fact.

The original design was that people play PvE, stop playing PvE and start playing PvP! That design was first violated with the introduction of PvP characters and completly destroyed with Balthasar points.

But even then the vision was, to get people to play PvP.
And with the introduction of Nightfalls it was clear that the original vision complete and utterly failed, most people don´t want to play PvP. In fact it crashed so hard, that I am questioning the intelligence of the designers of AION, who try the same vision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

.. The only real PvE nerf for a skill was the prot bond nerf....

There was a bug with prot bond that crashed the servers. That was the reason for the nerf.

Bryant Again · Jun 05, 2008, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I think that was addressed a few posts back.
Because GWEN has absolutely nothing to offer outside of Ursan.
Yet, they want it to sell.

So people are totally not going to buy it for the new armors, new weapons, new campaign, and new dungeons?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

The original design was that people play PvE, stop playing PvE and start playing PvP! That design was first violated with the introduction of PvP characters and completly destroyed with Balthasar points.

But even then the vision was, to get people to play PvP.
And with the introduction of Nightfalls it was clear that the original vision complete and utterly failed, most people don´t want to play PvP. In fact it crashed so hard, that I am questioning the intelligence of the designers of AION, who try the same vision.

The original vision of the game, as a whole, was highly questionable and a bit naive. So in that sense it's very understandable of why it would change. But once you change the entire premise of PvE - no longer sticking to it being about "skill>time" - things will get iffy.

Skye Marin · Jun 05, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

If Anet Nerfs EP, Ursan, or whatever, the next strongest builds are just going to take their place.

Bryant Again · Jun 05, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

...Which would actually be a good step in the right direction.

ducktape · Jun 05, 2008, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Do remember that players themselves never actually requested imbalanced skills in PVE, they were just tired of getting the nerf stick all the time since they were happy and enjoying themselves playing with the previous skills. Neither were PVE skills or something like Ursan Blessing ever requested, we just wanted a seperation to our skills so that PVP nerfs wouldnt affect them.

It seems that the forum majority arent keen on changes like these and continuously use the 'lern 2 adapt' rule after skills are nerfed. But it was never about learning to adapt, it was about having skills that players used to enjoy using and found fun in PVE nerfed for PVP balance. Anet misunderstood this desire and just provided us with imba ridiculous PVE only skills at first, and were then faced with more QQ's, particularly after the WY and LoD nerfs. Then the forum majority would just say 'Lern 2 adapt nub or use PVE skills instead'.

It isnt about adapting, it is about having fun in the game. However, stuff like imba PVE skills and UB arent what we wanted, we just wanted the skills back to what they used to be before getting nerfed all the time.

Best post I have seen describing the way any PvE player I have ever talked to really felt about skills and nerfs. Even the people who didn't farm stuff, who were just trying to vanquish or guardian or help friends through missions, they would get fed up with xyz useful skill being way crappier or even worthless after a PvP balance update, and then have that process repeat itself again and again every time they got comfortable with new skills.

Everyone I know who has quit this game has basically said Every time I start to get good, or finally figure out how to beat something that was difficult, some dumb skill nerf makes me have to start over with testing builds. I'm tired of getting my cookie taken away every time I start to eat it. I don't have time for this shit, if it didn't break so often I wouldn't even care.

I don't know how Please stop making stuff suck so bad for PvE usage when you fix PvP problems, it makes the game less fun. got translated at ANet to ZOMG I want overpowered uber skills that always has epic win. Sure, being practically unstoppable can be fun at certain times, but that's not what the majority of PvE was asking to get.

Tyla · Jun 05, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

The original design was that people play PvE, stop playing PvE and start playing PvP! That design was first violated with the introduction of PvP characters and completly destroyed with Balthasar points.

No, the original design was to configure your own skill bar to reach it's maximum potential.

Why do you think there is only room for 8 skills, with 1 elite?
Why do you think there are so many choices of skills?

Bryant Again · Jun 05, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Having to put together new builds has never been much of a problem for me, since I knew how well to play my class(es). Not to mention it added some variety to PvE. But that's just me.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 05, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

...
Why do you think there is only room for 8 skills, with 1 elite?
Why do you think there are so many choices of skills?

PvP and Magic of Gathering.

____________________________ or _______________________. And ________________________, though ___________________.
If __________________________________________, then ____________________________________, else____________________.But ___________________________________, or maybe __________________________.

Fill in the blanks.

Chthon · Jun 05, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Do remember that players themselves never actually requested imbalanced skills in PVE, they were just tired of getting the nerf stick all the time since they were happy and enjoying themselves playing with the previous skills. Neither were PVE skills or something like Ursan Blessing ever requested, we just wanted a seperation to our skills so that PVP nerfs wouldnt affect them.

...

It seems that the forum majority arent keen on changes like these and continuously use the 'lern 2 adapt' rule after skills are nerfed. But it was never about learning to adapt, it was about having skills that players used to enjoy using and found fun in PVE nerfed for PVP balance. Anet misunderstood this desire and just provided us with imba ridiculous PVE only skills at first, and were then faced with more QQ's, particularly after the WY and LoD nerfs. Then the forum majority would just say 'Lern 2 adapt nub or use PVE skills instead'.

It isnt about adapting, it is about having fun in the game. There were plenty of active guilds in the game that were made up of farmers, I were in a huge farming alliance back then, and believe me they hated PVE nerfs. They just didnt post about it on forums like I do. However, stuff like imba PVE skills and UB arent what we wanted, we just wanted the skills back to what they used to be before getting nerfed all the time.

Wow. Excellent post. This should be like split off into its own thread or something.

MithranArkanere · Jun 05, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

It's PvE! Monster should have stronger weaknesses and strengths! You can make ALL Prophecies and factions with the same Fire magic build, regardless of updates, without problems at all, without consumables or PVE skills, in both hard and normal mode.

Make Nightmares immune to dark damage and shadow arts skills.
Make elemenals immune to their own element.
Make some creatures immujne to certain types of physical damage...

That way people will have to change!

Tyla · Jun 05, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

PvP and Magic of Gathering.

And there you go. Yes, it's to balance the game a little, but it also means you have to be smart about your skill selection. Not being smart about your skill selection will have it's downfall.

squiros · Jun 05, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

i'm kind of new here, if anyone could explain a few things for me, it'd be deeply appreciated.

the 'dont like it dont use it(dldu)' argument is not accepted, because it is refuted by the argument 'the problem is still there'. which is then refuted by the argument that 'if the problem doesnt affect you, its technically not a problem'. is that the argument so far?

the few examples simply confused me. if there Was a button that killed all monsters and gave you max everything. . . the orginal dldu still stands. if i don't party with these people, i literally won't use it, and it literally won't affect me. there is no problem unless i choose to take interest in the behavior of others and Make it my problem. unless i can benefit from taking interest in others' behavior, there is no reason to take an interest in others, and therefore it begs the question, why do people mind what others do? this is different than ignoring a problem, since a problem will have consequences whether it is ignored or not (by definition), right?

the same logic follows for the abortion laws in poland. they in fact, do not affect me. more extreme, but the point still stands; it's not my problem, a bit cold hearted to be truthful, but still valid nonetheless. unless of course, polish abortions affect their economy and there is some major economical link to polish economies, etc.

the death setence example is confusing. don't commit homicide is exactly what the innocent person did. and yet he's still paying the price as if he had. the death penalty is being imposed on the innocent - whereas there is nothing being imposed on anyone in the dldu statement.

so are all the posts agreeing that dldu holds?

ursan is disfavored because players 'spam' skills, however, does anyone have a build that requires player skill to execute? doesn't parsimony favor ursan, from a purely logical standpoint?

Bryant Again · Jun 05, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It's PvE! Monster should have stronger weaknesses and strengths! You can make ALL Prophecies and factions with the same Fire magic build, regardless of updates, without problems at all, without consumables or PVE skills, in both hard and normal mode.

Make Nightmares immune to dark damage and shadow arts skills.
Make elemenals immune to their own element.
Make some creatures immujne to certain types of physical damage...

That way people will have to change!

..And call it "Ludicrous Mode".

Whammo:*control+click 'Ludicrous Mode'* "We've gone plaid!"

Seriously, though, that'd be pretty fun, just as long as they don't dumb it down at all once it's implemented.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 05, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It's PvE! Monster should have stronger weaknesses and strengths! You can make ALL Prophecies and factions with the same Fire magic build, regardless of updates, without problems at all, without consumables or PVE skills, in both hard and normal mode.

Make Nightmares immune to dark damage and shadow arts skills.
Make elemenals immune to their own element.
Make some creatures immujne to certain types of physical damage...

That way people will have to change!

Thats more what pve should be. Make skill choices based on the mobs you encounter. It doesnt beat giving mobs decent skillbars and better AI but is much more practical to do.

We saw it a bit with destryers immunity to burning, but i think gw has always downsized the importance too much.

Other games accomplish is by making their weapons have differnet levles of effectiveness against foes. As gw is skill not equip based it would be nice to have skills vary in effects based on the foe they are used against.

Personally i think fire damage should heal destroyers, and refert the bug fix on winter so people can't have an easy way out.

DreamWind · Jun 05, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The original vision of the game, as a whole, was highly questionable and a bit naive. So in that sense it's very understandable of why it would change. But once you change the entire premise of PvE - no longer sticking to it being about "skill>time" - things will get iffy.

The original vision is what brought a lot of people to buy the game in the first place and give Anet money. The fact that the vision did a 180 is the reason so many people are frustrated now. The fact that PvE is ridiculously easy and grindy is just another part of that 180.

Tarnix · Jun 05, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

This is hillarious to me. For the longest time all I heard from pve'rs was to seperate pve skills from pvp skills because they were sick of their skills being nerfed for balance reasons.

Now they get their wish, and they complain they want balance! LOL

The simple fact is, that in pve you dont have to use these over powered skills if you dont want to. Make a group and use normal skills, or make a guild that uses normal skills.

The point here is that its not going to hurt you if you do so, your not going to meet up with another pve group durring the instance who destroys your team b/c they are ursan, or who steals all the kills b/c they can kill faster.

Its up to you, if you dont like the skills b/c they are borring and too powerful then dont use them. It wont hurt you. Its that simple.

Or come to pvp where you have to use regular skills (like you claim you want to) and you have to use your brain (like you claim u want to).

byteme! · Jun 05, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Do remember that players themselves never actually requested imbalanced skills in PVE, they were just tired of getting the nerf stick all the time since they were happy and enjoying themselves playing with the previous skills. Neither were PVE skills or something like Ursan Blessing ever requested, we just wanted a seperation to our skills so that PVP nerfs wouldnt affect them.

When Ether Renewal was nerfed at first (10s to 7s), I dont think it had anything to do with PVP because back then, Ether Prodigy was the elementalists chice of elite for GVG, and in HA it was either twin attunement air ellys or GoE Erathquake / Aftershock.

Ether Renewal was mostly used for farming, and they nerfed it because of that. Now for some reason, they buffed up this skill for PVE and farming, after years of complaining.

Many people (particularly monks and ellys) hated the Mystic Regen nerf for farming even more then Ether Renewal, yet that was left untouched. No big deal, they just went back to using healing breeze instead.

Solo farming has taken huge hits with nerfs over the last few years, mostly due to balancing the skills for PVP play. While I would like to see a lot of the skills restored for solo use, they dont need to be as overbuffed as Ether Renewal has been.

Ether Renewal has become far more then a useful solo elite now, it can provide imba party support on E/Mo's, with far better energy management then soul reaping ever had. That is broken. However, a simple stoneflesh aura and mystic regen revert for PVE wouldnt affect much other then solo farming.

It seems that the forum majority arent keen on changes like these and continuously use the 'lern 2 adapt' rule after skills are nerfed. But it was never about learning to adapt, it was about having skills that players used to enjoy using and found fun in PVE nerfed for PVP balance. Anet misunderstood this desire and just provided us with imba ridiculous PVE only skills at first, and were then faced with more QQ's, particularly after the WY and LoD nerfs. Then the forum majority would just say 'Lern 2 adapt nub or use PVE skills instead'.

It isnt about adapting, it is about having fun in the game. There were plenty of active guilds in the game that were made up of farmers, I were in a huge farming alliance back then, and believe me they hated PVE nerfs. They just didnt post about it on forums like I do. However, stuff like imba PVE skills and UB arent what we wanted, we just wanted the skills back to what they used to be before getting nerfed all the time.

Impeccable post my friend. I am personally interested in knowing where some individuals got the idea that the community asked/wanted/wished for all these imba "PvE skills".

Tyla · Jun 05, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarnix

snip

Well I can tell you now that it was a bad concept to begin with.

Clarissa F · Jun 06, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

You can't argue the "dldu" argument for this simple fact: as said before, the PvE grind skills make "elite" areas normal, as any group with mediocre skill and these skills can complete these areas. It makes HM a joke. How is it harder when you and your friends can sweep through it? That is my beef with it. PvE used to have harder areas that rewarded pve players who gained skill and learned the game. HM was supposed to be an addition to this. After a bit, between bad(not newbie, but those who are too lazy or don't care to learn the game) players crying they wanted HM too, and Anet mistaking complaints about nerfs as wanting a win button or five, Ursan, SY, et al made HM their bitch. This changed the game meta,the same meta that got people interested in this "skill>time played" game in the first place. You can "ignore" it all you want. The game was changed, and for many potential GW2 players, it makes them wonder if they want to board another ship made by this yard.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 06, 2008, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

You can't argue the "dldu" argument for this simple fact: as said before, the PvE grind skills make "elite" areas normal, as any group with mediocre skill and these skills can complete these areas.

The problem with "elite" areas is that without Ursan et al., they take too long. Lordhelmos (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=282) mentioned 4-6 hours without being able to safe your progress. So for casual players those areas were impossible to beat, because of "time" not "skill". If you only play an hour, no matter how good you are, you will never be able to complete those areas.
So where are the cries from Dr. Strangelove, SkyyHigh, Yichi et al. about that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

It makes HM a joke. How is it harder when you and your friends can sweep through it? That is my beef with it.

That is the unwanted side effect. But I don´t think, they will ever change that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

PvE used to have harder areas that rewarded pve players who gained skill and learned the game. ....

Wrong! PvE had areas that took so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing long, that casual players could never beat them, no matter their player skills. PvE had areas where "time" became more important than "skill". It is ironic that they fixed this by making the game even more about "time", but this time your progress is safed every little step. So even casual players can finish that and then be able to beat the "elite" areas.