Curse

Age · Jun 15, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

I haven't read the letter yet just openning and I would say lets get rid of rank titles except those of pvp as well make thos pve only skills apply to an attribute of some kind.I would like to see more balance back in the game especially on the last 4 professions of Faction and Nightfall.I would stil say they are slightly out of balance compared to the rest of the core professions.

I would like to see more emphasis on the games Orignal intent in rewarding those that group free entry into the FoW and UW.This is another flaw by Anet having rank titles and fore going grouping up.I would of preferred skill quest like Prophecies instead of solo quests.Prophecies was yet the best by far campaign except with no UAS.

I see this game dying and my hopes with it and I don't know about GW2 at this moment.I would like to get my goals done in this game but it getting harder by every passing day.This is some what of a dissapointment on the way the game has been handled.To me GW 1 needs a big fix now some may not come back and play GW2 or continue to play.

Bryant Again · Jun 15, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Personally I think if they would have made the normal modes of elite areas easier, people would complain it is to easy
or
that the "balance" (there is a beter word for it but can't come up with it) between drops in NM and HM and the toughness of NM and HM wouldn't be "balanced enough".

And if they would "balance" it out to a "fair" level, everyone would go for HM.

Look at the deep. None did it on NM, everyone did it on HM. Better drops !! (and it was easy enough).

So most people just care about getting the loot?

I've been speaking and adding these suggestions on behalf of people who just want to see and enjoy the content, not for farmers. Unfortunately, the latter is who all these changes cater to, part of why I'm very discouraged by all these changes. These skills/etc. help those who don't care about game balance, not the majority. It's ANet catering to a very annoying and vocal minority that only care about themselves and disregard maintaining the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No it wasnt. As Ive said noone is holding a gun to your heads. Well if they arer then you have other serious problems. You have a choice and option to use or not use it. Yes the truth always ruins threads around here.

The truth is that ignoring the problem's doesn't mean they don't exist. The DLDU argument is also faulty because it can excuse any flaw or overpowered skill you could ever imagine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Let me explain depth in avarre's pool analogy. ANET didn't make the pool more shallow than have you grown out of it. Maybe the depth for you is gone , but for many other players it's still here , like me, i still find depth in the game. You want ANET to change the game according to some very subjective wishes.

ANet already made changes on very subjective wishes. I've already mentioned above about who these updates are aimed at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

So , 5 professions (I never saw a team build that requires more than 5 different classes) will do elite areas , while the other 5 play with marbles in the outpost waiting ANET do change some skills so that the team build changes , hopefully allowing some other class be in the team. Very nice , very very nice of you.

It's not any better than people being restricted by not owning a campaign and/or not having a high enough rank.

Foe · Jun 15, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Something should be made clear. This thread is not about the majority and minority. This thread is not about veterans and newbies. This thread is not about casual players and hardcore players. I don't know why people keep bringing it up.

This thread is about the depth of Guild Wars turning to crap and Anet not communicating with the players, and I honestly don't know how anybody who has played this game for any amount of time can argue those points.

Right, but this is guru and this thread like every other has degenerated into a parry/thrust match between the same trolls that ruin every thread. ''I think" "in my opinion"....stfu. Agree/disagree and gtfo.

pumpkin pie · Jun 16, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

I thought of something that I think I might add to this thread. You know a lot of players think that HoM is a way to "buy" over the existing GW 1 players so that they move to GW 2. However, did you realize that ArenaNet doesn't have to give us HoM. They could have left GW 1 to die with time when GW 2 is launch, I am sure plenty of players would move to GW 2 and there wouldn't be this much complain and criticism if HoM weren't there.

What I am saying is think about your complain and criticism a little bit more before jumping to conclusion. I do not think ArenaNet need HoM to move its players from GW1 to GW2. HoM is an extra something for its fan, lastly ask yourself, can you as a game developer do as good a job as ArenaNet has? Can you?

If your answer is yes, then you should join them and give us a better game as you claim you can

cheerio.

Courage! · Jun 16, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

/signed i agree with every bit i read

xDusT II · Jun 16, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

So , 5 professions (I never saw a team build that requires more than 5 different classes) will do elite areas , while the other 5 play with marbles in the outpost waiting ANET do change some skills so that the team build changes , hopefully allowing some other class be in the team. Very nice , very very nice of you.

You've interpreted his post incorrectly. Tyla never said trinity-way was good for the game, but it's still the lesser of two evils when compared with Ursan Blessing, meaning any movement towards it is technically an improvement. Trinity-way at least allowed players to model their own skill bars and construct team synergies, while Ursan Blessing continues to remain the anti-thesis of this, by creating an overpowered skill bar which is almost void of any synergies with other professions or skills.
It's not like Ursan Blessing is any different from profession based discrimination either, only this time it's the low rank Ursan's who can't get into pugs - not because of their skill level - but because of something stupid like number next to their title.

Graphik Desine · Jun 16, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

ANet, I know why, in general terms, you’ve made each change you’ve made to the game. I get your logic, such as it is. The problem is I can see where these things are heading, because, possibly regrettably, I and other veterans devoted a large amount of time to knowing your game better than you do. The biggest issue you face is community relations – we don’t know what you’re doing, and you don’t do what makes sense to the players.

odd. i have been getting the same feeling. this is due to the latest "changes" in the game. the latest nauseating "changes." what a joke.

it seems the attention not being paid to pvp is what is driving people towards another game (ahem, WOW, cough). just LOOK at heroes descent. sway this, sway that? sure, quickly nerf what is "overpowered balanced" and let crap builds run rampant for a year and a half. iway, sway. etc. and now i know why almost all players i played competitively with have discovered other mmos that do not screw with builds every week in favor of new players and t-spacers.

we clearly see what and who is priority here. not the veterans. not people that know any better. no. the new people get farther than veterans do, and by putting forth half the effort the veterans once did.

i have remained standing, after three years, playing almost every day, racking up a lot of hours---standing, remaining blind and loyal. doing my own thing.

ahh, for what?

why did i do this? what is this game doing for me? what did anyone playing do for me? and why did the things i did for anyone get taken for granted?

the best way to answer these would be: mindless, monotonous playing? farm and make money to get things in my hall? lol....:/

your post, avarre, is very thought out, very honest, and very genuine. and even though my post will probably be skimmed, overlooked, crapped on, flamed, deleted, or could have the potential to zonk out a whole lot of readers due to length, i read every single word you had to say because it counts to me, and i agree. i hope yours is read by the people that count in the arenanet world, along with all the rest of ours, that share the same thoughts. even though i don't think anyone will care enough to do anything about your post, at least you have backing

maybe guild wars 2 will be released with a mature rating......haha wishful thinking ^^

Akaraxle · Jun 16, 2008, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Here's another ultra-concise summary of Avarre's post for those that cba to read it all like I did:

<ANet, you created a little gem in the history of online gaming: a complex, fun, competitive game based on simple concepts.
You then piled a load of crap on it in an attempt to sell more boxes. That was really bad.>

As a side note, I'm glad he noted how monsters progressively went from "Hi, we fight with the same skills as you" to "Hi, we blow your face up with stuff you have no idea what it does" (which should only be reserved to end-area bosses).

Zikum Monk · Jun 16, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

wow.
/signed

Ravious · Jun 16, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

As a side note, I'm glad he noted how monsters progressively went from "Hi, we fight with the same skills as you" to "Hi, we blow your face up with stuff you have no idea what it does" (which should only be reserved to end-area bosses).

Personally, I don't mind Monster Skills because they can bring a lot of interesting small things. Monster Skills used correctly are like the Ghoul's Nibble or Charr's Gloat. In fact, for my 10 second recollection, I can't think of a horrible Monster Skill. I can think of hard ones, lilke a few on Shiro, but he is a boss.

My problem is "Hi, now we blow your face up with the same skills you have only better, faster, harder, stronger, and easier than you can ever dream."

Vaal 84 · Jun 16, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Problem is, if we don't help them who will ?

The Racoons???

Esan · Jun 16, 2008, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

In fact, for my 10 second recollection, I can't think of a horrible Monster Skill. I can think of hard ones, lilke a few on Shiro, but he is a boss.

Maybe I can jog your memory: Enraged, Banish Enchantment, Consume Torment, Demonic Miasma, Wurm Bile, Pyroclastic Shot, Enchantment Collapse, Juggernaut Toss, Ceiling Collapse, Carrier Defense, ...

wazz · Jun 16, 2008, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So most people just care about getting the loot?

I've been speaking and adding these suggestions on behalf of people who just want to see and enjoy the content, not for farmers. Unfortunately, the latter is who all these changes cater to, part of why I'm very discouraged by all these changes. These skills/etc. help those who don't care about game balance, not the majority. It's ANet catering to a very annoying and vocal minority that only care about themselves and disregard maintaining the game.

Err... it will always be the farmers who care the most about the elite areas.
And yes, it is all about the loot.

Why else complete some elite area ?
The other reason would be to boost your ego. Witch is also part of the "loot" in some way.
Or fun... meh most elite areas are just too hard to actually "be fun". (my opinion)

I have to disagree, according to me anet didn't help the farmers but helped the "newer" people.

The farmers already did DOA before it with there cookiecuttersbuild
and infact were complaining that the prices of torment weapons would go WAAAY down.

I see the oposite, how DOA was before UB was PRO farmer.
Now it might be farmed more, but less by farmers.
Go ask around in DOA, most people are just trying to farm there torment weapons and will stop right after.
They aren't "real" farmers, but people who want to have the "hot" gear and show of with it.
For most, they would never even see a torment weapon if not for UB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's not any better than people being restricted by not owning a campaign and/or not having a high enough rank.

Sadly, that is not true.

topk --> splinter weapon + flesh golem. Both faction skills.
deep --> paragon ok... not needed, but without one it becomes way harder. Ele with nf skills. Monk with SS skill (although I don't think there was titlediscrimination about that one). My member is foggy but I believe arcane mimicry is also a nf skill.
DOA pre-UB --> I believe the ele had some proph skils.

Aside from that people were always "title" discriminating. Only in a different way.

I think we all remember people shouting "group looking for PRO's only".
They "checked" if you were a pro by looking at your skillbar.
And you had to be max lvl. (duh)

Now they are "checking" it by looking at your skillbar + your title.

Aside from that, it is still profesion discrimination.
the profesion is called [UB].
Achieving max lvl = maxing the title linked to it.

All by all. UB is a cookiecutterbuild in some way.
But... it is better then most cookiecutterbuilds.
- it is more destructive
-it lets more people play.

Yep I know. People who just have NF get owned big time.
But without PVE skills, they assumably still would be.
As most cookiecuttersbuild ONLY allow people who have the SKILLS (including skills from other campaigns) + are the correct profesion.

Now it is just the people who have the SKILL (from eotn).
Doesn't mean problem solved. I agree. But there is no other way for anet to solve it.

They could completely overhaul all elite areas
but people would just switch to another cookiecutterbuild

They could add random stuff
but people would just switch to another cookiecuterbuild and yell "NOOOOOOOB" even more.
(this is again my opinion,like everything I write. As far as I know, it could turn out the way Zwei2stein said. I would love it that way, but I'm to pessimistic to think it will turn out like that.)

They could make it more eassy..
and we would have an even bigger flamefest then UB now is (+ make it hero-able).
Heck, SWG Combat Update all over again.
(some people would say UB= CU or even worse NGE.
But I disagree.
At the moment you still have the ability to do it the PRE-UB way.
Harder and not equally rewarding. Sure.
But how many people would have continued playing SWG if they would have had that option?)

Personally, unless anet can remove the prof discrimination, I prefer UB.
I don't want to stand in DOA again for weeks and whipe on the first mob when I do find a group.
Bryant, zwei2stein, Avarre (if you're still reading), in general anyone who finds UB to be wrong and that the need doesn't justify the tools =UB (err it sounds better in Dutch, trust me).

Elite areas.
They do/should require RL people to be completed. I assume we all agree with that.

Most people don't have a big enough guild or allaince/ enough friends to complete the area.

(plz, don't start the "join a beter guild" argument. You could also join a beter guild if the one your in now plays UB. And if you care so much about UB destroying PVE and elite areas, WHY did you never make so much a problem of cookiecutterbuilds ? It discriminate people too and requires near no skill)

So the "newer" people HAVE to go PUG.

Now there is UB. In the old days there was cookiecutterbuilds.

What you want in place of UB (please not cookiecuttersbuilds)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaal 87

The Raccoons?.

My dear guildie; ALWAYS the raccoons. That is why I'm here =-p
My wazzness is required, once more.

Bryant Again · Jun 16, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

I have to disagree, according to me anet didn't help the farmers but helped the "newer" people.

If they wanted to help the "newer" people they wouldn't create a skill that discourages thoughtful build custimization. If they wanted to help the inexperienced they would've made normal mode more accessible so that they can better expect what to prepare for should they wish to see it in Hard mode.

And if this was supposed to help new people who "didn't have enough time" they wouldn't have linked a title to it. That essentially voids all matter of it pertaining to "helping out the newbie". The fact that people are now shooting for only very high ranks just proves the point: This isn't helping out newer players.

If you want to help out inexperienced players, you teach them through steps how to play the game. UB doesn't do that, it entirely disregards all of your previous game knowledge or lack thereof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Now there is UB. In the old days there was cookiecutterbuilds.

What you want in place of UB (please not cookiecuttersbuilds)?

You're never, ever going to kill discrimination in an online game. There were and still are those who prefer X profession over Y, or see Z profession useless - even with UB.

It's very interesting how you keep claiming how "cookie cutter builds" are an evil when UB is *just that*: It's a build cookie cut straight from ANet. It provided a cookiecut build to "rule them all". UB would've killed cookiecutted'ness if it encouraged people to think of new and different builds, but that is entirely the opposite of what UB promotes. The only difference is that it's not profession exclusive.

While it eliminates (to an extent) profession and "cookie cutter build" discrimination it causes numerous ones on whole fronts, as already listed out. It solves no problems. The title takes a large chunk of time to max, and if you do max it out than you are not a "new, inexperienced" player.

I can't look on UB with a good light since it sacrifices too many core game concepts to be considered a "good idea" and solves very little in the process. The same goes for PvE skills.

Sjeng · Jun 16, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

It's a nice letter, albeit a tad dramatic, but hey, I have that tendency as well sometimes ^^.

Personally I've never been that concerned abour Ursan in particular ruining the game, as I still feel the game is very enjoyable, but I do understand what Avarre is saying here, and better decisions in the past could certainly have made GW better than it is now. I do feel it was more fun back before NF came out. With heroes NF added some nifty new "tools", which many needed because of dwindling PvE players (or because of being fed up with bad PUGs), but with EotN things seem to have gotten worse. There's too much elitism going on (ingame and on forums too as a result). It used to be more equal.

So, even though I might not think it's all that bad, I understand the letter, and will /sign in hopes GW2 will be better.

(PS: even though I feel titles are fun, I dislike grind, especially for PvE skills that make the game easier, yes... such as ursan... Protector and Guardian, cartographer and skill hunter, Legendary vanquisher and champion of (UW, FoW, SF, ...), those are the fun titles.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper Evenstar

Bring back the magic that was GW in chapter 1!
A few suggestions from back in those days (and looking at what I like in other games):
- Do tie skill acquisition to achievements (quests)
- Don't make all skills available at the first trainer you come across once they are unlocked. I don't want my level 5-10 to have a rockstar build - he shouldn't.
- Don't give me IMBA skills tied to mindless grinding.
- Do tie PVE skills to classes/attributes so they are not abused and overused.
- Do put in challenging missions that require groups to form and learn to work together to proceed in storyline. Learning to work together is a key factor in player growth, and leads to more competent PUGs (and enjoyment of the game) in the long run
- Do have fewer classes in GW2 and give each a specific and useful role.

Amen to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper Evenstar

- Do not give uber skills so weak/unwanted classes can do areas/etc where they are not typically welcome. See point above...
- Do improve monster group balance/AI/change their builds regularly in harder areas and try to give us more balanced and unexpected teams to fight.

This last part = Not signed because of this single statement: "so weak/unwanted classes can do areas/etc where they are not typically welcome." That's class discrimination, and I HATE that. That's a big reason why people are using Ursan in the first place. Every class should be able to do every little bit of the game, without overbalanced grind PvE skills. And don't change monster's skills in the same areas.

Silent Coyote · Jun 16, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Jumping in here having only read first page, so please ignore me if I'm retreading old ground or if the discussion has moved on.

Have to say sadly I agree with a lot of the points the original poster was making. A lot of the depth in this game has been lost. Add to this recent changes like this split between PVP and PVE versions of skills that only serve (IMO) to further the gap between PVP and PVE, adding unnecessary barriers between the two, and seemingly contradicting the fundamental design the game is built on.

To be fair to ANet, I think these changes have been made out of a genuine attempt to satisfy all of their community. Only problem is you can't do that, the community will never agree on anything. Trying to please every camp will only create contradictions in the game. At the end of the day, ANet need to put their foot down and say this is the game we are making and this is who we are catering to. At the moment I have no idea who that group is.

Hopefully with GW2 they will have a clearer vision of what they want to achieve, as at the moment GW1 seems to be all over the map.

Tijger · Jun 16, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Dreamr, ANet very well might face problems with Gw2. Trash the first hard enough, show your company to be experts at making bad gameplay decisions, and people won't purchase your product. So yes, saying that they may lose out on customers is not all that much of a reach.

Eh, lets be realistic here, do you really believe that if GW2 is a fantastic product or even a damn good one these people will on principle not buy it? Nah, sorry, not gonna happen.

I've played GW for nigh on 3 years now, and no, I havent played it all the time, I do exactly what Anet suggests, I vary my gaming experience. I've been playing Mass Effect recently and over the last 3 years I've played many, many other games then GW.

The best part is, it doesnt cost me anything to leave GW on the proverbial shelf for a while, I come back and play a few hundred hours until I'm done for a while. Sure, there's room for improvement, always was and always will be but thats fine, I never expected (or expect for the future) a perfect game, the point is that GW is excellent value for money imho and it always has been and at the end of the day, thats what its about.

The same complaints always come from the same people, its a relatively small vociferous group and like Bryant earlier said, the average player doesnt care what that group thinks, it votes with their money and given GW's sales they vote against topics like this.

Bryant Again · Jun 16, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

The same complaints always come from the same people, its a relatively small vociferous group and like Bryant earlier said, the average player doesnt care what that group thinks, it votes with their money and given GW's sales they vote against topics like this.

If true, then how did GW become so successful before? It had no need to reach down to the small minority of whiny give-me-now's, at the time it had sold 3 million copies and would've reached 4 million a month later.

It's not that the average group "doesn't care what we think", it's that the average group just doesn't care. They didn't care before, they don't care now. They were enjoying the game just fine then and still are. The only people benefiting from all this dumbing down are people who don't care about the core of the game and just want everything at their fingertips, game be damned.

Edit: Post 666. Epic win.

Akaraxle · Jun 16, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Personally, unless anet can remove the prof discrimination, I prefer UB.

But you're not really playing your profession.
Are you satisfied with that fake sense of acceptance? I wouldn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If they wanted to help the "newer" people they wouldn't create a skill that discourages thoughtful build custimization. If they wanted to help the inexperienced they would've made normal mode more accessible so that they can better expect what to prepare for should they wish to see it in Hard mode.

And if this was supposed to help new people who "didn't have enough time" they wouldn't have linked a title to it. That essentially voids all matter of it pertaining to "helping out the newbie". The fact that people are now shooting for only very high ranks just proves the point: This isn't helping out newer players.

If you want to help out inexperienced players, you teach them through steps how to play the game. UB doesn't do that, it entirely disregards all of your previous game knowledge or lack thereof.

Quoted for f'in emphasis, please read, this guy makes sense. And again I assert that the type of progression Prophecies pushed you through was much better (even with the stone walls known as Elona's Reach and THK).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper Evenstar

Bring back the magic that was GW in chapter 1!
A few suggestions from back in those days (and looking at what I like in other games):
- Do tie skill acquisition to achievements (quests)
- Don't make all skills available at the first trainer you come across once they are unlocked. I don't want my level 5-10 to have a rockstar build - he shouldn't.
- Don't give me IMBA skills tied to mindless grinding.
- Do tie PVE skills to classes/attributes so they are not abused and overused.
- Do put in challenging missions that require groups to form and learn to work together to proceed in storyline. Learning to work together is a key factor in player growth, and leads to more competent PUGs (and enjoyment of the game) in the long run
- Do have fewer classes in GW2 and give each a specific and useful role.

A-men from me too, expecially the parts in bold. The change in skill acquisition contributed to removing part of the achievement after completing a quest (only crappy items now) and removed the sense of progression by confusing the player by forcing them to choose from a ton of skills.

Iuris · Jun 16, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I have carefully read both the OP's post and the previous post he asked us to read, too.

I must say that I disagree with most of what has been said. While some things are a bit worse, the overwhelming majority of the changes Arena net have implemented have been for the better. The game is getting better and better, not worse.

The game is not shallow. We have simply played the game far too much. That is all. Once you've played a mission for the tenth time, of course it isn't going to feel hard and we lose the feeling for the difficulty. Instead, ask yourself, how many new guildmates have I had to help do this thing?

Look at your /age commands. I doubt people complaining in this thread will find low numbers. That is the only thing that's deeply wrong with this game. It's so good we played it far far more than we should have played it. And that only shows that Anet did too GOOD a job.

Oh, and one other thing: try to remember that Anet has access to actual statistics. Better ones than the forum users.