Curse

Lord Sojar · Jun 15, 2008, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I should point out that ANET does in fact read these type of well written posts, and does acknowledge well worded responses. The post and previous open letter are both well written, to the point, and very educated. They lack the typical rant style, and instead show a genuine care for the game.

I would like to also point my previous post regarding some of the issues discussed in this very thread. While Avarre's post goes into more detail on several counts, some of what my initial post regarding specific areas holds true.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10204029

This is in no way an attempt to divert attention from this thread, as full attention should be given to this well written, and extremely truthful piece of forum literature. Avarre, as a veteran player and long standing member of the Guild Wars community at large, you have my full support and backing of everything you have mentioned herein, and I wish ArenaNet my best wishes and highest hopes in developing the future of the game I have come to call my own. Guild Wars is my game, and always will be my game. I will never fully turn my back on it, but I may very well turn it off for a very, very long time.

All the well wishes one can conjure,

Rahja (Connor)

Kashrlyyk · Jun 15, 2008, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

...
This is hilarious. In the face of good arguments you have went from "the majority says the changes are good" to now saying "no RPG is easy to learn and tough to master, and since Guild Wars is an RPG it isn't either!" You are basically admitting that the depth of the game has went downhill, exactly as Avarre originally stated.
...

Wrong. I still say the majority things the changes are good. And I say, there is a difference in how you define "master a game", when you play Super Mario Bros., a FPS or an (A)RPG. Do you have to master every single skill? Do you have to use the best possible build? How do you define mastering an (A)RPG??

For SMB is was mentioned above, that a flawless run through would be "mastering" it. So run through Guild Wars with no death as fast as possible would be "mastering" it. But wouldn´t a real master do that with just a half full skill bar?? Or a full bar with only 9 in the attributes? Where do you draw the line?

And why can´t you "master" the game for yourself, when others are using Ursan??

Clarissa F · Jun 15, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Apparently you dont know anything about the game.

That was the dumbest thing said on this thread. Didn't say you were, just the remark.

FireFox · Jun 15, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Wrong. I still say the majority things the changes are good. And I say, there is a difference in how you define "master a game", when you play Super Mario Bros., a FPS or an (A)RPG. Do you have to master every single skill? Do you have to use the best possible build? How do you define mastering an (A)RPG??

For SMB is was mentioned above, that a flawless run through would be "mastering" it. So run through Guild Wars with no death as fast as possible would be "mastering" it. But wouldn´t a real master do that with just a half full skill bar?? Or a full bar with only 9 in the attributes? Where do you draw the line?

And why can´t you "master" the game for yourself, when others are using Ursan??

mmm, guess I missed the part where Guild Wars became a single player game that you needed to modify original concepts in to make fun

manitoba1073 · Jun 15, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

That was the dumbest thing said on this thread. Didn't say you were, just the remark.

Such as Avarres remark about the grind. Its not forced on anyone and you can get enough to use the skills just by playing through the game.

pumpkin pie · Jun 15, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

It is getting dumb and dumber! people calling other people names and challenging them to list games and what not, its not even about what OP has posted anymore, its reduce to another pve skills vs no pve skills thread like so many other thread on this forum.

DreamWind · Jun 15, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Wrong. I still say the majority things the changes are good. And I say, there is a difference in how you define "master a game", when you play Super Mario Bros., a FPS or an (A)RPG. Do you have to master every single skill? Do you have to use the best possible build? How do you define mastering an (A)RPG??

For SMB is was mentioned above, that a flawless run through would be "mastering" it. So run through Guild Wars with no death as fast as possible would be "mastering" it. But wouldn´t a real master do that with just a half full skill bar?? Or a full bar with only 9 in the attributes? Where do you draw the line?

And why can´t you "master" the game for yourself, when others are using Ursan??

I give up. I seriously give up. This thread has turned to garbage. Nothing will ever be better than Avarre's OP. The end.

the_jos · Jun 15, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

If by "a new player" you mean "a retard player" then you're probably right.
Sadly, none of my friends are stupid enough for me to fool them.
I completed Prophecies in a month. I was also new back then too.
I completed Factions in 2 weeks...sans grind content.
Nightfall took me 3 weeks.

Let's see, Proph also took me about a month at start.
Factions would have taken me about 3 weeks but did not like the city area at first.
Nightfall was dead easy.

But, between Prophecies and Nightfall I gained a lot of experience.
I doubt I would have been able to complete both Proph and Fact in 6 weeks and the three chapters in 9.
Unless investing a serious amount of time.

And I doubt you've played all side quests in those chapters.
Are side quests grind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Need I go on? The reason that some people (like you) still playing for a long time because you like to repeat old content over and over and you also grind for (pointless, most of them at least) titles.

Nope, the main reason I still play is because I enjoy playing and chatting with others.
Grind for pointless titles? Didn't really happen, I got most of my titles by just having fun with others. I doubt playing with others and achieving things together is now considered grind....
And besides LB on my mesmer I don't recall doing dumb runs over and over again.

Repeating old content over and over again?
Well, done that in the past, again, for fun.
It was a lot of fun monking in THK or Hell's and helping others improve how they played.
For me it was all about finding the best strategy to do certain things.
Why do most teams try X and fail and what are ways to avoid that.

When looking at the skill > time statement that is frequently used in these kinds of discussions, one needs to keep one thing in mind.
Skill is not something you have, it's something you gain by experience.
And experience means doing things and learning from it.

Let's take a sidestep to martial arts.
One might be very talented but it would still require a certain amount of time to gain a certain degree.
One needs to learn the moves and then learn to use those moves subconsious. That takes time and practice.
In a game like Guild Wars you don't need that kind of dedication unless you want to play in the very high end.
But installing the game, beating it and stating that you have mastered it is far from the truth. You've beaten it, not mastered.

When my guild started playing GvG ages ago it was easy.
The leader would give each member a profession and build to run.
With just one question: do you think you understand how to use that build?
After a battle it would be evaluation time to see where things could be improved. Professions, builds and how skills were used.
PvE lacks this mechanism. People only want to beat the content once because they have another goal.
If they fail almost no-one asks why they failed and how to improve.
No, the team falls apart and people look for others that might succeed.
People stopped learning from failure. They don't question their part, it's always 'the others'. Many don't play as a team.

But that has very little to do with the lack of content in Guild Wars.
And that seems to be your main argument for stating that Guild Wars is a bad game.
The content is still there, the possibility to gain experience is still there.

The only thing that seems to have changed is the way PUG teams play.
A year ago PUG was dead. Now it's alive. Only now those PUG teams also form in guilds and alliances. They are called Ursan teams.
I have a very strong and outspoken opinion on that and my guildies know that.

Cacheelma · Jun 15, 2008, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

And I doubt you've played all side quests in those chapters.

You're wrong. Can't you tell by the amount of time it took me? Without sidequests, Factions won't last any decent gamers, casual or not, longer than a week.

As a matter of fact, I killed Shiro in 3 days on my Cantha elementalist (second character since my mesmer from Prophecies). So much for PvE content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Nope, the main reason I still play is because I enjoy playing and chatting with others.

I keep forgetting how these features are unique to GW.

NOT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Grind for pointless titles? Didn't really happen, I got most of my titles by just having fun with others. I doubt playing with others and achieving things together is now considered grind....
And besides LB on my mesmer I don't recall doing dumb runs over and over again.

Because people can't have "fun" and also get good rewards in other games?

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Repeating old content over and over again?
Well, done that in the past, again, for fun.

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

But that has very little to do with the lack of content in Guild Wars.
And that seems to be your main argument for stating that Guild Wars is a bad game.
The content is still there, the possibility to gain experience is still there.

The very little content the game has is still very little, you mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The only thing that seems to have changed is the way PUG teams play.
A year ago PUG was dead. Now it's alive. Only now those PUG teams also form in guilds and alliances. They are called Ursan teams.
I have a very strong and outspoken opinion on that and my guildies know that.

PuG is alive because everyone uses Ursan. Am I supposed to tell my friends that?

- "Oh hey, this game is good you know. If you agree to use this overpowered skill you can play with people in a team and steamroll through everything."

- "I thought you tell me the game has 10 classes with tons of different skills to mix&match?"

- "...who cares?"

As I said, my friends are not stupid enough.

Tyla · Jun 15, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Such as Avarres remark about the grind. Its not forced on anyone and you can get enough to use the skills just by playing through the game.

Actually, you are by the majority of the community. Go to wherether and you'll see more "Ursanway r10 only" PuGs around. You need to grind a bit more to get r3 in all of the titles, same for r5 for armour and all of the skills' power, you need to grind in order to get this.

No, you are not forced, but you are limited to guildies and H/H if you choose not to grind Norn rank, but the point is that there is still alot of grind in the game.

the_jos · Jun 15, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

As I said, my friends are not stupid enough.

Maybe because your friends are not my friends?
And I'm not you?

My friends I would recommend GW to won't complete Factions in a week. Not because they would be bad, but because they don't have the time to do it.
There are those things like job, study, girlfriend, wife, houshold and stuff that also need attention. Enabling them to play for a couple of hours a week.
And since they would be new to the game and it still takes time to learn the mechanics they won't be able to complete that fast.

They are also not the people who seek fast reward.
So if something takes 30 mins instead of 15, who cares, as long as you had fun and completed.
If you have highly comptetive friends, like a colleague of mine who used to play high end WoW, GW is not the game you are looking for (anymore).

Maybe I'm getting old and just don't care about achievement anymore....

Unreal Havoc · Jun 15, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

And you didn´t list a few, because...?

Because he shouldn't have to if you have half a clue about gaming.

Red Sonya · Jun 15, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

I should point out that ANET does in fact read these type of well written posts, and does acknowledge well worded responses.

I listened to Obama and Hillary speeches as well, but, I'm still gonna vote for McCain....so what's your point? lol Anet can read and even acknowledge any post it doesn't mean they are going to change their position because of it though.

Crom The Pale · Jun 15, 2008, 12:07 PM // 12:07

PvE always has been and always will be Time>Skill, its just not possible build a game that isn't that way without an amazing AI system creating true random yet logical actions for the monsters you fight, changing up who your fighting and what builds they use....

PvP is Skill>Time, that is where it is meant to be and where it should remain.

Cacheelma · Jun 15, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

My friends I would recommend GW to won't complete Factions in a week. Not because they would be bad, but because they don't have the time to do it.
There are those things like job, study, girlfriend, wife, houshold and stuff that also need attention. Enabling them to play for a couple of hours a week.

So basically people who have things like "job, study, girlfriend, wife, hous(e)hold and stuff" that also need attention and can't play much per week don't deserve a better game?

Bioware won't sue you simply because you play Mass Effect for 2 years and still can't finish it.

Trust me. It's true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I listened to Obama and Hillary speeches as well, but, I'm still gonna vote for McCain....so what's your point? lol Anet can read and even acknowledge any post it doesn't mean they are going to change their position because of it though.

We all know that. So what's YOUR point then? Are you just here because you're afraid that Anet will listen to Avarre and those who agree with the letter and NERF your precious Ursan? Seriously?

How cheap.

We voice our opinion IN HOPE that Anet might listen and consider what we have to say. If they take some action, cool. If they don't, fine. There's nothing for us to lose. As customers we speak with our money all the time. Your coming here telling people to "shut up" is totally unnecessary.

BlackSephir · Jun 15, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

PvP is Skill>Time, that is where it is meant to be and where it should remain.

Yeah, because skill > time is elitist attitude and it should stay in that god damn pvp! Lemme show those lvl 10 noobs how awesum I am with my eternal blade and fow armar.

Bryant Again · Jun 15, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I can think of only one reason why A-net introduced the skills.
Profession discrimination. No problem when you have access to friends/guild, huge problem when you don't.
To make sure the skills would solve this it had to be on par with very strong builds. Still, UB alone is meh. The more human players you have the better.
And even then it's not that good. Put up some consumables and you know the difference.

If it was to help "descrimination", they wouldn't have made the PvE skills linked to a title. Not to mention needing to own the campaign in order to use them, so you still have campaign discrimination.

And people won't need consumables when they can storm through the areas. Consumables are just more part of the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

It's not in the best interest of A-net to lower the title requirements.
Easy, they need people to be involved for at least another year.
And they think grind is a solution for that. Because it works in other games.

Then it really makes no sense to provide overpowered skills and other additions that make the grinding for titles go faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Apparently you dont know anything about the game. Since you dont have to grind to get any of those skills or even consumables. Just playing through GW:EN will get you enough points to use them. But nice try. Unless you got some other excuse.

We already trashed the "don't like it, don't use it" argument into oblivion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Wrong. I still say the majority things the changes are good

And why is that? Because we don't see a max exodus of people complaining? We didn't see one before all of these additions. The game was still doing amazingly well. And besides, you can never know what the majority thinks.

The majority doesn't just know about all these additions, they just don't care. All of these additions have been aimed at a minority of players that are impatient, only care about themselves getting the "phat loots", and don't understand the need to become better at the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

PvE always has been and always will be Time>Skill...

That's not how it used to be. What was wrong with it before?

zwei2stein · Jun 15, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's not how it used to be. What was wrong with it before?

I think its obvious.

Some people who played a LOT didn't excell in GWs thanks to intelligence handicap.

Now, we can't have those people fail areas after playing for years while newbies can rock'n'roll throught em. It makes them feel bad.

Answer is obvious: Put there some grind to that makes em better at guildwars! That way not only they can do stuff, they can also become elitists and make that stuff standard for doing everything. No longer will those pesky newbies rock n roll areas! Now they must grind like all other decent human beings to r10 to join our new elite.

We cant have someone who just finished campaing and bought 8 skills do some elite stuff, now can we. Nono, we have to make sure they have to grind up. Othwerwise, where is the fun? Without spending time they just cant have fun! Were doing it for them!

GWs sucked obviously because ulike other RPGs stuff does not blow up when you look at it after you played long enough. Its what RPG is about. Roll Playing for rolling opoents over. Now its fixed in GWs. Now if only minion limit was removed, soulreapign resored and got some buff like 2 enery per point. And "Kill em all" skill with 5e, 1/4 cast, no reachrge thatkill eneverytinhg inside aggro range ... meh, its too weak, whole radar range. maybe drop energy cost to 1. And make it instant. OFC, it shuld be ballanced by being usable only by people who have 10 million XP. (no, 5million. I only have 5. I should be able to use it too, damn it, i played for 3 years!)

/sigh.

Talon one · Jun 15, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

i agree with the OP that adding pve skills that completely ignore the profession and attribute points system is a not so good idea. but i wouldn't put it quite so melodramatically. people tend to look at the old days through rose tinted glasses, pve 'skill' in the old days used to be about exploiting game mechanics and googling cookie cutter builds.
the leet pugs used to farm sorrows furnace with the gear trick or farmed tombs with pet barrage or whatever was the quickest and easiest way to make a lot of gold. its not really that different from r10 ursan groups. except that now its an official exploit, even easier and works everywhere.

wazz · Jun 15, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Ugh so what if it would be our fault ?

What if anet kept on making the game harder and harder for the veterans (look at DOA).

Of course the "new" people don't stand a change. They have nowhere near enough knowledge to tackle DOA, but at the other hand they can enter DOA. (so what I'm saying is: they completed NF, so they have the "right" to do the area(well according to anet at least, why else would they make it a requirement to have completed NF first ?))

Shouldn't we help them, instead of letting them die out there ?

I mean, the area is that hard due to US. The smallest thing we can do is help em... they have as much right to do the area as we do.

If we would help them, they would at least stand a chance.

The only thing that is helping the "new people" is guildwiki and PVXwiki.

If someone asks for help to you what do you ?
a. redirect him/her to guildwiki (I'm guilty to this one, and i think most people here are)
b. actually help him/her

What do they learn from guildwiki:
-which tricks they can use to win (taking path Y avoids mobs , if you kill monster X first mob Z wont show up etc etc)
- what skillbars they can use

But will they now understand HOW to play GW ?
According to me they don't.
They don't learn WHY they are using those skills.
At best they know in witch order to push the numbers.

Problem is: in the elite areas, there is but one skillbar: the cookiecutter one. (for the new people !!!!)
Always was and assumably (unless anet comes up with some genious idea) always will be.
Cookiecutters builds never were very custimisable and assumably (unless anet comes up with some genious idea) always will be.
Cookiecutters builds don't contain all the proffesions (unless...).

Guess what anet did have an idea of how to fix it, mabye even to fix entire PVE.

Problem is,... it is called PVE skills. Like it or not it was anet only chance to make everyone happy.

The other options would be: most people would never complete the elite areas. (Some here seem to find that ONLY the ELITE should be able to complete the ELITE areas. Aside from it being twice the word elite, I see no reason. I mean you also have ELITE tome, ELITE skill, ELITE armor etc. /sarcasm
The way I see it elite means it is endgame, and is completed AFTER you complete the campaign. Completing the campaign shows that you have enough skills to complete the ELITE area, IMO)
-the veterans helping the new people, but we all know that will never happen.
-anet making elite areas less hard, but that would give the same complains as adding PVE skills.

The only thing I fully agree with Avarre at is the CR part.

sidenote: if anet wouldn't buff the monsters to a zillion health, but would give them PVP worthy skillbars, then even less people would be able to do the area without PVE skills...

Ok Ok I have nowhere near the knowledge to know this...
but according to me monsters with alot of health just take long to kill, monsters with PVP worthy skillbars would take even longer and assumably give WAAAY more trouble then the "buffed" ones.

and another sidenote: cookiecutters builds don't take more or less buttonmashing then UB.

I assume most of you remember the old angelic bonder for the deep HM ?
You had to hit ONE skill on recharge. ONE !!!

And the monks in your group don't have much work either, mainly hitting ONE skill on recharge too. (seed of life)

PS:
Yes I use UB (but TNTF/SY even more)
Yes I agree that PVE skills destroyed alot of the fun in PVE.

But I find anet did the right thing.
And IMO, it is our fault. (so also mine)