Curse

fenix · Jun 12, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

QFT = Quoted for Truth.

Kyp Jade · Jun 12, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

OP was very well put out. It is for reasons as those that I have put Guild Wars aside. Before the last twenty or so horrible design decisions that make Anet look exactly like Blizzard. I have no faith GW2 will have the originality GW did. None at all. I see a clone of every other MMO, just with different lore.

Funny, since GW2 is going to be a poor mans wow, I figure I might as well play a better game thats pay to play. Definatly not wow, but I am looking for something. Currently trying my hand in Age of Conan, but thats besides the point, and the devs there are horrible at communicating with the playerbase. WHile it might seem anet are holding to much back. You guys really need to give credit where credit is due. Anet staff are AMAZING at telling us what is going on compared to other companies out there.

That being said, Anet shot themselves in the foot in the begining I think.
They tried hard to make the game skill over time. But then they had to cater to teh casual players, whom they also said the game was for. Thats two very different design paths to take. And in my humble opinon, they took the wrong path.

Casual gamers can still enjoy something that hardcore gamers get a kick out of. Hardcore gamers absolutly despise dumbed down button mash fests that youve turned the game in to.

Zesbeer · Jun 12, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

well this tread has been a fire storm of sorts. and also got an interesting reply from anet. i feel like it was a week reply.

i for one go back to one point i have been making on regina's wiki page and that is look at other game commpanis like blizzard, ea (bad example they have got the worst forums ever.) and just look and see what kinds of ways that they try and communicate with the community. one big way those companys do it is by a podcast or video interviews.

sorry to one and all but im not going to spend my time reading all 304 posts + seeing as i am just now joining the conversation so if this stuff was already discused sorry.

WNL · Jun 12, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I agree on the part that design emphasis on PvE skills have lead to regular GW skill being push to the side, but I think it's not a great idea to write a block of text to get a few points across, this is not a composition competition, a clear concise and better attitude from OP would have a better reception and readership from devs (if he/she intend to get the point across).

But I don't agree on some parts, particularly on the "easier for newbies", players left for [insert reasons here] kind of statements.

Spangly_boy · Jun 12, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

We're addressing the transparency issue with more frequent and visible Dev Updates. Do you have additional suggestions on how devs can improve this? One of the ideas someone proposed was to have devs participate in forums personally. This is pretty hot topic at ArenaNet, and until we can come to some sort of agreement on how we would like this to work, the Dev Updates and wiki pages are the main tools for the developers to use.
I communicate with tons of people from the community each week. This wiki and the visible areas of the internet, like the forums, are not the only methods I have been using to get feedback and answer questions. For example, people PM me on the forums regularly and I have instant message conversations on Xfire. I personally answer questions and have dialogue with individuals on email. I actually participated in an ad hoc, informal chat on Xfire other day with members of a Guild Wars group in that community. I am accessible and people do take their concerns to me, but just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
You say you want to know what's going on, and when I tell you that these issues are being discussed and debated, it's not a satisfactory answer. Game design decisions are not made by one person. They are made through discussions and collaboration, so unfortunately you cannot have immediate results. The dev team is currently split between two huge projects: maintaining GW1 and developing GW2. There are staffing issues here. We're actually recruiting for more developers so that we can work on both games. The recruiting process is taking a while because we want to get the right people on board, but the goal is to have one designer and one programmer dedicated exclusively to GW1 so that we can work on these GW1 issues that are so pressing. This is a positive thing, because it will take the work load off of those who need to work on GW2. I'm sorry that we are making slow progress on the issues that you've brought to our attention recently, but the reality is that we don't currently have the resources to work on everything in GW1 that needs attention, however we are addressing it through recruiting efforts and exploring ways that we can more efficiently collect feedback. --Regina Buenaobra 01:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The messages are getting across.

0siris · Jun 12, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

epic thread...but you ppl need to summarize your posts

I could have read a good novel in the time it took me to read this thread

/signed to make it legit.

Anarkii · Jun 12, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

This post will probably get lost between the QFTs and /signed posts, but I'll go ahead anyway.

Look at what Gaile Gray did in her span as Community Manager, and go back and see what Sanya Thomas did for Mythic. In a recent article titled '10 most powerful people in MMOs' was the name of Sanya Thomas. She 'defined' what a Community Manager was for MMOs. A CM is not a moderator, is not a messenger, is not a spokesperson. It's way beyond that.

Devs *report* to Community Managers in the sense that they have to explain design and development decisions to the CM, and they have to logically convince the CM that it is beneficial to the game. A CM does not go requesting devs for tidbits of info, which he/she copy-pastes into 5 different places.

If you weren't around in the DAoC days, look at how WoW's community management has improved over the past 3 years. The lead designers give detailed interviews almost every month about the direction the game is heading.They have regular podcasts, newsletters outlining the recent changes and upcoming changes and why stuff is happening.

ANet took the completely wrong approach to Community Management. They employed a messenger instead of a community manager.

Zorgy · Jun 12, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

"....The problem is when they put through changes that none of us want, and don't explain why. Time and time again players like Ensign have posted up VERY large and popular threads on the exact changes that should be put through, and time and time again Anet put through completely different changes, that don't help anyone at all. We just want to know WHY they put through their changes, rather than the ones the community want, as a starting point..."

If you mean GWGURU community...it includes 0.001% of the whole players base.....

http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/

"...Pay close attention to complexity creep. Don’t assume that most of your players are reading your website and consuming information about your game. Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it’s important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so..."

Kashrlyyk · Jun 12, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

PvP and PvE have essentially grown into two different games branded with the same franchise name. While PvE has introduced ways of making the game accessible, PvP remains a highly frustrating juggernaut. One might say that this will make winning to be more rewarding, but I know some people who do not play games for reasons of self-punishment, rather have a more laid back approach towards their free time and do not need competitive self-affirmation. Hence PvE and PvP became two different games. The alleged superior adaptability and skill of the PvP players is, however, very limited when it comes to accepting new game modes besides Team Deathmatch ganking. "Omg, we have to capture strategic locations, wtfbbq, this ain't PvP qq."

I also remember a flash flood of threads claiming that Nightfall was too hard. Big surprise, one year later it is too easy. Could it be that people actually get better? But make no mistake, nerfing Ursan will not bring back an elusive definition of skill based on failing at playing the game. It will only lead to the second dirtiest way of farming gold to be exclusively used. Because that is what Ursan boils down to. It's a gold farming skill used at areas of high revenue. It is an illusion to think that if Ursan did not exist, all of you would find a good Pugging group to raid the UW. No, the game would take a step back to two-man farming or groups of three smiting their way. That's not an improvement, that's another layer of the same thing and you would still not find a group. You would still be poor and you would still be frustrated with drops.

Inside well organized guilds Ursan is not annoying at all. It's a fun addition to the game. Remember when you asked for mounts to ride on that do extra heavy damage? Remember when Izzy shrugged that off? Now Ursan basically does what people always expected of riding a fiery dragon through town and suddenly it is wrong? The only thing Ursan hurts are the feeling of those that lived in the dreamland of exclusivity and representative vanity. But no, you are not the only ones in the world to own equipment X or have a few titles. And yes, those titles are dirt cheap even without Ursan, IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS! Each time Arenanet makes a step to keep the game playable, some players with very elitist attitudes ask for those measures to be removed and the game to be turned into an exercise of self-mutilation which only the forum masters can suffer though. But that's not gaming, that is the reason why Fury failed, that's the reason why many other games failed. Being too hardcore can be a bad thing.

So stop complaining the game is too easy and recognize the truth: dying at Thunderhead Keep were not the good old times of balance, it was your epic fail at playing the game. Even if Ursan forces players down the road where the build itself is no longer the issue, they still can screw up at every corner and they still pump themselves up with consumables. Is the proposed alternative really a game which only 5% of the players can complete? If that's the case, then GW would really be doomed. Tombs of the Hardcore is not a viable expansion. I remember the time when a FoW run took 4h. The build our "leet" team used then would now get us kicked from every group for being noob (even if Prophecies was still the only chapter). Who cares if there is a skill that cuts the completion time down to an hour even for the general public? After all, that's content they paid for and that's fun they are having. You are welcome to shoot your own foot before entering each raid, but don't expect to meet too many players who are on the same page about it.

The same goes for the information policy. Three years of being nailed to an imaginary cross for every delay can do that to a developer, I guess. I remember how open the details about Factions were shared in advance. Like little children proudly presenting a drawing to their parents did the senior staff spill most the guts about Factions in advance to interviewers and podcasters. They even did an open beta which showed off large portions of the game. Boy did they get burned for that by the community. Until today, Factions has not recovered from the hate this open information policy caused. It is still considered the worst expansion, although all current major points of hate towards the game originate from NF or EotN. You might hate grinding, but what you really hate are people having something that you don't. That's called envy. To measure the hate towards grind type /favor in the game. To measure your envy towards other players look at your own suggestions. 99% of the times they are optimized to make your gaming style the measuring stick for all players. How sweet.

Now this is something I sign! Once again a great post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgy

"....The problem is when they put through changes that none of us want, and don't explain why. Time and time again players like Ensign have posted up VERY large and popular threads on the exact changes that should be put through, and time and time again Anet put through completely different changes, that don't help anyone at all. We just want to know WHY they put through their changes, rather than the ones the community want, as a starting point..."

If you mean GWGURU community...it includes 0.001% of the whole players base.....

http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/

"...Pay close attention to complexity creep. Don’t assume that most of your players are reading your website and consuming information about your game. Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it’s important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so..."

Thanks for that quote. That is what everyone on here has to realize: you are a minority of the GW playerbase. And the people having problems with Ursan or the new ER are a minority of that minority.

Golgotha · Jun 12, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

PvP and PvE have essentially grown into two different games branded with the same franchise name. While PvE has introduced ways of making the game accessible, PvP remains a highly frustrating juggernaut. One might say that this will make winning to be more rewarding, but I know some people who do not play games for reasons of self-punishment, rather have a more laid back approach towards their free time and do not need competitive self-affirmation. Hence PvE and PvP became two different games. The alleged superior adaptability and skill of the PvP players is, however, very limited when it comes to accepting new game modes besides Team Deathmatch ganking. "Omg, we have to capture strategic locations, wtfbbq, this ain't PvP qq."

I also remember a flash flood of threads claiming that Nightfall was too hard. Big surprise, one year later it is too easy. Could it be that people actually get better? But make no mistake, nerfing Ursan will not bring back an elusive definition of skill based on failing at playing the game. It will only lead to the second dirtiest way of farming gold to be exclusively used. Because that is what Ursan boils down to. It's a gold farming skill used at areas of high revenue. It is an illusion to think that if Ursan did not exist, all of you would find a good Pugging group to raid the UW. No, the game would take a step back to two-man farming or groups of three smiting their way. That's not an improvement, that's another layer of the same thing and you would still not find a group. You would still be poor and you would still be frustrated with drops.

Inside well organized guilds Ursan is not annoying at all. It's a fun addition to the game. Remember when you asked for mounts to ride on that do extra heavy damage? Remember when Izzy shrugged that off? Now Ursan basically does what people always expected of riding a fiery dragon through town and suddenly it is wrong? The only thing Ursan hurts are the feeling of those that lived in the dreamland of exclusivity and representative vanity. But no, you are not the only ones in the world to own equipment X or have a few titles. And yes, those titles are dirt cheap even without Ursan, IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS! Each time Arenanet makes a step to keep the game playable, some players with very elitist attitudes ask for those measures to be removed and the game to be turned into an exercise of self-mutilation which only the forum masters can suffer though. But that's not gaming, that is the reason why Fury failed, that's the reason why many other games failed. Being too hardcore can be a bad thing.

So stop complaining the game is too easy and recognize the truth: dying at Thunderhead Keep were not the good old times of balance, it was your epic fail at playing the game. Even if Ursan forces players down the road where the build itself is no longer the issue, they still can screw up at every corner and they still pump themselves up with consumables. Is the proposed alternative really a game which only 5% of the players can complete? If that's the case, then GW would really be doomed. Tombs of the Hardcore is not a viable expansion. I remember the time when a FoW run took 4h. The build our "leet" team used then would now get us kicked from every group for being noob (even if Prophecies was still the only chapter). Who cares if there is a skill that cuts the completion time down to an hour even for the general public? After all, that's content they paid for and that's fun they are having. You are welcome to shoot your own foot before entering each raid, but don't expect to meet too many players who are on the same page about it.

The same goes for the information policy. Three years of being nailed to an imaginary cross for every delay can do that to a developer, I guess. I remember how open the details about Factions were shared in advance. Like little children proudly presenting a drawing to their parents did the senior staff spill most the guts about Factions in advance to interviewers and podcasters. They even did an open beta which showed off large portions of the game. Boy did they get burned for that by the community. Until today, Factions has not recovered from the hate this open information policy caused. It is still considered the worst expansion, although all current major points of hate towards the game originate from NF or EotN. You might hate grinding, but what you really hate are people having something that you don't. That's called envy. To measure the hate towards grind type /favor in the game. To measure your envy towards other players look at your own suggestions. 99% of the times they are optimized to make your gaming style the measuring stick for all players. How sweet.

Best post of the entire thread.

I sometimes wonder how some members here fit any game time, not just for GW, in between their complaining about every design choice. If I love a product and a manufacturer no longer provides it, I'll move to the next best option. I certainly wouldn't do what could easily be seen as crying outside their window. Most of the negative outlooks on these forums are a minority, and justly should be treated as such by the developers. Know why there's such a resounding demand for nerfing? Because the people that don't want it are too busy playing the game to defend their play choice on a forum of elitists all day.

trialist · Jun 12, 2008, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

I think the BEST things Anet has done for Guild wars is:

PVE Skills
Heroes
Consumables

and finally the separation of PVE from PVP, that should have been separate from day one.

I am disabled, and the availability of Consumables, PVE skills etc has helped my enjoyment of the game drastically. If it was not for these things, I would have left guild wars long ago. I understand that some people may possess skill and are a bit more mobile than I am, so those people can easily breeze through areas of the game that stop my progress dead in my tracks. I can't tell you how many times I have been so frustrated with a mission or a quest that I just wanted to quit GW forever and not look back. I can honestly say that without certain PVE skills and consumables, Guild Wars would be unplayable and therefore un-enjoyable for me. I believe that Anet created these things for handicapped players like myself, as well as players that simply may lack the ability to create a viable build in areas where there are level 28-30 mobs with almost unlimited energy and health with monster skills that are far more overpowered than the PVE skills that we have at our disposal.
That is why they need to be in the game. Not all of us are gods or elitists at Guild Wars, I just wish more people would try and remember that.

You do realize you just described the symptoms of the real problem and anet’s response being to solve the symptoms, not the root of the problem right? Ursan is merely a symptom of the root of the problem. The real problem is that Anet has no idea how to code an AI that is actually able to challenge a human being.

Instead anet goes the easy way out, that of increased mob levels and big wtf damage numbers, or instant AI spike along with imbalanced monster only skills. After going so far in that direction, they decided to "help out" the players by adding ursan and other pve skills to even things out, which really only serves to highlight the root of the problem, GW doesn't really have any competent AI.

Until anet designs pve with AI being a major factor and not using big numbers for the monsters to cover up their lack of intelligence, pve will never really be a challenge and will always be flawed and player skill will never really be a big factor. Fix a problem at its root and not its symptoms, something anet really needs to do, they seem to keep twitching the symptoms and missing too with that. Sigh.

DarkNecrid · Jun 12, 2008, 09:05 AM // 09:05

No one RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing cares about minoritys or majoritys. You say it as if it somehow invalidates the OP, yet it doesn't. Anet doesn't have to cater to anyone, because time and time again articles have been linked which show they've had 3/4 million sales before the stuff which reallly badly ruined their game and went against the standard design went live.

They can basically do whatever the hell they wanted and still have people, the problem is is they did listen to a very small minority.....of a minority. That of the people who want everything handed to them, which isn't good for the game. If you don't have the time for something...find time or don't. That was part of what made Guild Wars great originally, is once you got through the missions, if you couldn't do something you weren't really missing out.

You don't have to do DoA, because what does it give you? A bunch of different skins (that have the same stats as your shit you already have, ie: no benefit), a possible minipet (ie: no benefit), and XP (whoah can't get that anywhere else.)

There is literally 0 reason to do anything beyond the missions for a real tangible reward. The process to getting the reward is fun, but those can take time, and that should be respected, not lessened.

Golgotha · Jun 12, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

No one RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing cares about minoritys or majoritys.

I'd say Anet does.

Quote:

They can basically do whatever the hell they wanted and still have people, the problem is is they did listen to a very small minority.....of a minority.

You're basing that off...?

tmakinen · Jun 12, 2008, 09:18 AM // 09:18

I'd like to try to propagate some mutual understanding between different groups of people here.

Let's say that you have studied hard to graduate from a university and feel some pride over your achievement when you finally get your diploma. The next day, the university management decides that their challenging curriculum is too much for most students and starts to hand out diplomas to anybody who can write their name without too many mistakes. You are furious, since that decision changes your previously valuable diploma into toilet paper. This is a case where the goal is the primary reason to do something.

Now let's say that you go fishing. You get some quality time of your own, freedom to do things at your own pace and a chance to brush your skills. Your friend points out that if you want fish, there's plenty in the local mall and you're spared of walking to the lake, mosquito bites and an entire day wasted on something that you could acquire in five minutes. Your friend completely misses the point because in this case the goal is just coincidental and the process of doing something is its own reward.

Some people see the gameplay as primarily a goal-oriented activity. You are supposed to hone your skills and get rewards accordingly. ANet's revisions of the game may feel like a slap on the face to players who are skilled and goal-oriented, and their irateness is understandable in this light. Unskilled and goal-oriented people, on the other hand, will be delighted to get the rewards without doing the work for it.

Other people see the gameplay as primarily a process-oriented activity. There isn't any imperative to get more skilled or anything, the game is good as long as it is fun, and the requirements for having fun differ from those of goal-oriented people. These players are largely indifferent to the issue of in-game reward/effort because for them the reward comes from doing something.

Goal-oriented skilled people should see the difference between goal-oriented unskilled people and process-oriented people and not treat both with the same amount of contempt. Process-oriented people should understand that goal-oriented people are not spoiled crybabies - the game is getting completely trashed for them.

Yang Whirlwind · Jun 12, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Dear Regina

By making the Ursans Blessing skill so overpowered and mind numbing easy to use you have opened Pandora's Box. You have created a situation for yourself in which it will be impossible to please everyone, as all the threads for and against the skill in it's present form clearly states.
You can either leave it as is or nerf it. If you do the first, every skillful challenge seeking member of the community will be disgruntled. If you nerf it, every one presently steam rolling every elite area with it will be outraged.

Those are your choices, and sadly I have a very strong inkling that you will choose the solution that generates the most profit and the least work: leaving the skill as is and the game broken.

I just hope you learn from the mistakes Avarre so eloquently outlined and endeavor not to make the same ones in GWII.

Angelic Upstart · Jun 12, 2008, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Probably one of the best posts i have seen that outlines what i have felt since EotN came out.

It for me epitomises all of the reasons, i had for leaving.
This should be stickied and i hope someone from Anet gets to read this, and not just a toothless CR officer.

Sleeper Service · Jun 12, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I'd like to try to propagate some mutual understanding between different groups of people here.

Let's say that you have studied hard to graduate from a university and feel some pride over your achievement when you finally get your diploma. The next day, the university management decides that their challenging curriculum is too much for most students and starts to hand out diplomas to anybody who can write their name without too many mistakes. You are furious, since that decision changes your previously valuable diploma into toilet paper. This is a case where the goal is the primary reason to do something.

Now let's say that you go fishing. You get some quality time of your own, freedom to do things at your own pace and a chance to brush your skills. Your friend points out that if you want fish, there's plenty in the local mall and you're spared of walking to the lake, mosquito bites and an entire day wasted on something that you could acquire in five minutes. Your friend completely misses the point because in this case the goal is just coincidental and the process of doing something is its own reward.

Some people see the gameplay as primarily a goal-oriented activity. You are supposed to hone your skills and get rewards accordingly. ANet's revisions of the game may feel like a slap on the face to players who are skilled and goal-oriented, and their irateness is understandable in this light. Unskilled and goal-oriented people, on the other hand, will be delighted to get the rewards without doing the work for it.

Other people see the gameplay as primarily a process-oriented activity. There isn't any imperative to get more skilled or anything, the game is good as long as it is fun, and the requirements for having fun differ from those of goal-oriented people. These players are largely indifferent to the issue of in-game reward/effort because for them the reward comes from doing something.

Goal-oriented skilled people should see the difference between goal-oriented unskilled people and process-oriented people and not treat both with the same amount of contempt. Process-oriented people should understand that goal-oriented people are not spoiled crybabies - the game is getting completely trashed for them.

ah but thats just it,

Its a GAME and its purpose is to amuse. There is nothing stopping these "goal-oriented" people from attaining their goals is there?
Whats more the vast majority of these G.O players are self proclaimed pvpers no? whats the problem then, they can just pvp and screw pve (which is what they tell pve players day in day out).

It seems that all they want is to force people to play like ....well not even like they do... but like they think people should play.

arguing is impossible with them, when one says that Anet is listening to the majority the fanboys respond that the majority is a bunch of idiots who know nothing.

when one says that its a minority they respond that its a vocal minority that knows nothing.

In the end all their argumentation boils down to: "we know better cause i like played this game for thousands of hours and now i find it boring"

the games not hard enough? GIMP yourself try out different build! dont use 3 necro teams! dont use consumable or PVE skills!...."oh no that would be inefficient why should I".

sheesh.

tmakinen · Jun 12, 2008, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Its a GAME and its purpose is to amuse. There is nothing stopping these "goal-oriented" people from attaining their goals is there?

Well, you just failed to see the issue from your opponent's point of view. The thing that is stopping these goal-oriented people from attaining their goals is that the goals have been devalued to null and void by some changes to the game.

Would you pursue a university diploma from an online university who sends you one provided that you send them your name, address and some moolah?

Chrono Re delle Ere · Jun 12, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Am I wrong, or Buenabora just answered the feedback question?

There were like thousands of other questions :l

And ofc the end of Buenabora's answer gently asked us to look forward GW2.

I laughed.

makosi · Jun 12, 2008, 10:15 AM // 10:15

There are too many followers in this thread. Someone yells, "witch," and the rest of the villagers are making a bonfire with a stake because they are so easily lead by someone with an ounce of authority.

Use your own brains.