Curse

fenix · Jun 12, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Excellent reply to an excellent thread. Good work Avarre.

I might point out firstly that Sha 'mysteriously' disappearing, was him rage-quitting Guild Wars after the major let-down that Eye of the North turned out to be. Sha and I have played together on various occasions since, but it usually ends in us stopping due to the game either being too easy, or being unenjoyable to play due to monsters seemingly catering for an Ursan or Para-way strength team.

What disappointed me in this thread, was the reply from our "Community Relations" dev. Building a relationship with your community is not going to be easy if you suggest everyone post on the Official wiki in order to suggest things, considering that for the last 3 years we have been doing that on this and various other fansites.

I feel that the CR team are taking the easy route, and expecting people to come to them with suggestions. This is why your game has been declining in terms of activity and popularity on fansites. Your job is to communicate with the community, yet you do not do this. You expect us to communicate with you. How do you expect us to take CR seriously if all of our suggestions and ideas fall on deaf ears.

The fact that Regina actually replied to this thread is at least a step towards the right path, but even then the reply itself lacked substance and didn't actually address the issues at all. Even more disappointingly, Sha's thread was never replied to in the first place. This is a major problem in the eyes of myself and many other members of the community. The fact that the CR team ignore threads and suggestions that are important to us, shows that they are not serious about improving the game.

I would like to direct your attention to this quote, which applies quite well here;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Truly, the primary problem with your game design, in my opinion, is that you have no real way of judging how happy or upset the community is; they buy the game, then it stops mattering what you do it. The money is in your pocket. You can delete all the skills in the game and your subscriptions won't go away because there aren't any; if everyone stopped playing right now, today, you could look at the sales figures and claim the whole thing was a huge success, and completely ignore the millions of enraged players who would be wondering just how badly they've been duped.

This seems to come true when you look at how poorly the CR team manage the relationship they have with the community. Yes they have our money. Yes the game is a 'success' in ANet's eyes. But no, that does not mean that they can just sit back and expect the game to continue running smoothly as it did when it was first released. Things have changed since then, and GW has become less attractive to play, due to the continued ignorance of what the community KNOW would be good for the game.

The game will continue down the path that it is on now if the CR team refuse to do their jobs properly. We don't expect you to be on guru 24 hours a day, but at least regularly enough to understand the issues we have with the game. Clearly this is not being done. Either improve this, or you will find yourselves with a failed game on the release of GW2.

You know it is the truth. We know it is the truth. Look at the Ursan complaints. More importantly, look at the complaints with accounts being hacked. What has been done to resolve these? Nothing. With issues this big on the forum, there should be at least communication with players as to how it should be resolved. And yet we are ignored, and the game is changed as though we never existed.

This is your second chance Anet. Your first chance was wasted when Sha posted his thread. If this opportunity to improve things is wasted, I have a feeling a lot of the community will not give you the time of day, let alone consider buying GW2. Stop ignoring what is blatantly being displayed here. Your CR team is doing a very poor job, and you are making bad decisions in the game that are affecting the community.

- Fenix

Avarre · Jun 12, 2008, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Regina, I read your reply, and I'll let it speak for itself. However, there's a few parts I will reply to directly. (By the way, my 'challenge' of sorts still remains open. I just want to hear that one statement, if it's true or not.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

There are reasons behind each design decision, though some players in the community may not agree with them. As you admitted, one of the things ArenaNet needs to do is try and please everyone. With the number of different perspectives and play styles out there, this is a monumental task and we do our best.

This is exactly what I mentioned myself. There's a 'reason' behind everything, I want to know why that reason exists and what it is. I don't want to know 'we thought this would encourage blah blah blah', I want to know why exactly changes to the game design were made, the reasons behind the overall shift. Saying there is a reason behind everything is basically just saying 'god moves in mysterious ways', which is exactly the problem I mentioned in terms of CR response being empty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Another point you made is regarding the collection and organization of community feedback. The design team does regularly consult with and solicits feedback from experienced and knowledgable players. I and other members of the team are accessible through our wiki pages and through PMs on the forums as well. I and the other members of the community team have been communicating with players through email, forum PMs, in-game, on the wiki, and in the forums at large. However these discussions are dispersed through many different mediums and there is no single, unified place where feedback is visibly given and read.

Forums can be a great place for discussion, they are not necessarily the best place for organizing feedback in such a way that people (players and devs) can easily find it, search for suggestions that are the most popular, or figure out which pieces of feedback rank highly in terms of importance to the community.

The collection of information and the organization of such to present to the devs is the job and responsibility of the community relations department. Community Relations is there to collect the raw data opinions of everyone who responds, select the important parts, and present them to the devs. It is not the responsibility of the community to order its feedback in 3,000+ word posts. I don't want to be told that forums are too big for effective feedback to be easily found by the developers, because I don't expect the developers to be reading them anyways. I do expect the Community Relations department to be going through every bit of the forum feedback, because that is their job - and if it isn't written explicitly in the job description, it should be.

Ugly_Jim · Jun 12, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Most of the points are just things that the serious GW crowd (the GW community) wants. Anet has no reason to make amends or communicate at all with the vocal minority, much less change the game because we want it done. And I'm probably as active if not more so in GW as anyone here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

OP is too long, too verbose, and employs an inappropriate style/tone that defeats it's own purpose.

I had a very similar thought.

Jetdoc · Jun 12, 2008, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

From what I gathered, you feel that developers should place more importance on balancing a game for existing players rather than new players, hence the criticism that making the game "too easy" is bad for players as a whole, and that GW:EN and the introduction of PvE-only skills contributed to this. Your opinion is that Guild Wars has strayed too far from its original vision and now lacks depth, which it once had.

These changes have been made over a relatively long period of time and can't be addressed all at once. There are reasons behind each design decision, though some players in the community may not agree with them.

Regina, I understand that the developers, the community relations group, etal have been trying to communicate more to the playerbase to give the rationale for their decisions.

However, the core of what Avarre posted (which you nicely summarized above) has never been directly addressed by the developers (as far as I've read). In short, is it the developers' view that the majority of the playerbase does not care about balance in PvE, and would rather have very powerful skills to "blow up stuff" quickly?

There's an isolated quote from Isaiah that people like to quote on the site, and many of us would like to know if that is the true "vision" the developers have for PvE.

Carinae · Jun 12, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Excellent post Avarre.

Anet lost its vision with Nightfall, although they were already on the slippery road with Factions. GW:EN completely destroyed that vision entirely.

Too much focus on the 'new' playerbase, no attention at all to the respected, senior players in either PvP or PvE. These people know the game very, very well and have given their advice repeatedly in many, many posts on this and other forums...to no avail.

Instead we get things like "Concise Skill Descriptions". Who was calling for THAT update? Why were resources wasted on THAT? That update probably took a month or more for a programmer (or two) at a time when the forums are filled with legitimate problems and intelligent solutions. It signifies a total disconnect between the developers and the playerbase, as well as a total lack of management of the Anet developers.

It's representative of the total lack of direction, call it a loss of vision if you want, on the part of Anet. They HAD a vision of GuildWars that was unique and inventive. They lost it. However, they didn't replace it with ANYTHING. They are just floundering around now aimlessly, implementing unneeded (see above), and sometimes contradictory changes, while remaining oblivious to the real problems. Management lost it's vision.

ArenaNET needs to listen to the forums, and to do so as an active participant. They need to know the difference between a stupid post and an intelligent one. Not all posts should be weighted the same; especially coming from a unique game like GuildWars, there are going to be a LOT of posts by people coming from WoW and D2 wanting things that don't belong here. Don't change GuildWars around these peoples wishes. They don't understand how the game works, they are approaching it from the wrong mindset. I know, I did it too when I started. I know better now. Three years in, and the developers should also.

Monster-skills
PvE skills (and their allegiance ranks)
Heroes
Consumables (of all types)
Stupid PvE titles (especially one that affect things in PvE)
Seperating PvE and PvP

These are some of the additions to the game that destroyed PvE. These are the root causes of much of the problems. It's a co-operative game, decreasing the need for co-operation bleeds the game. GuildWars. Emphasis on Guild.

People are leaving not because there are problems. They are leaving because it's become clear ArenaNET doesn't understand those problems, and/or care about them. They are leaving in despair. The true problem is management. They have either lost their vision, or don't have a clue. There is despair in that realization because, it's not a problem that can be solved on our side (the playerbase) of the conversation. And frankly, at this point, only radical changes can save GuildWars, and I don't see that happening.

Basically, the senior playerbase is wrapping up the last few titles/achievements on beloved characters and then going on hiatus. It's just too disheartening to continue.

arcanemacabre · Jun 12, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

This is exactly what I mentioned myself. There's a 'reason' behind everything, I want to know why that reason exists and what it is. I don't want to know 'we thought this would encourage blah blah blah', I want to know why exactly changes to the game design were made, the reasons behind the overall shift. Saying there is a reason behind everything is basically just saying 'god moves in mysterious ways', which is exactly the problem I mentioned in terms of CR response being empty.

Pretty much agree.

I think the void of CR response is due to the overall 'greedy' reasons behind the changes. I, for the life of me, cannot remember who said it, but I truly believe this: Ursan, and all the other imba PvE crap, exists to encourage people to title farm and fill their HoM. This way, very few people will feel 'left out' by the time GW2 comes around, and will actually have more incentive to purchase it. It is a relatively intelligent marketing trap, and admitting to it will do nothing but piss everyone off.

Plain and simple, any other answer will likely not be the truth, so it's better they not answer at all. Better for all of us, actually. Really, what other reason could there be?

Edge Martinez · Jun 12, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Dear A-Net,

First, I would like to clarify that this isn't a flame, or a rant, but rather a collection of warranted complaints and questions that need real answers.

Holy flashbacks. That sounded like me ex-girlfriend right before I dumped her.

Otherwise, /signed.

EDIT: Sara, that you? :/

tmakinen · Jun 12, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

There's a 'reason' behind everything, I want to know why that reason exists and what it is. I don't want to know 'we thought this would encourage blah blah blah', I want to know why exactly changes to the game design were made, the reasons behind the overall shift.

And this, right here, is the most unreasonable demand in your entire letter, and an indication of a wrongful sense of entitlement. Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

xarchitect · Jun 12, 2008, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

As you admitted, one of the things ArenaNet needs to do is try and please everyone. With the number of different perspectives and play styles out there, this is a monumental task and we do our best.

I can assure you that our team has a strong goal for what we want to accomplish with Guild Wars 2, and hopefully we can get this across in future communications.

Thank you for responding Regina. I do want to throw out a caution to the development team as you consider these two comments that I perceive are the critical points moving forward.

As an architect, I will use the example of a house. An architect who needs to design a house that will please everyone will ultimately find himself building a boring tract house with white siding and a two car garage. Sure, the house is fine to live in. Nobody loves it though and any other architect could also design the same house so why would anyone hire you specifically to do it? If you design the best house that you can, you will create a masterpiece (if you are good) and everyone will want to live there because it is beautiful. Look up Fallingwater or Villa Savoye and tell me that you would pick bland suburbia over these.

This is esentially what you achieved when you released Phophecies. You did not yet have a fan community filled with suggestions so you were able to concentrate on doing the game the right way. The developers had a strong design objective and they very successfully executed it. After it was released, you unfortunately fell into the trap of listening to those who don't know any better.

I don't think at this point you can "fix" Guild Wars 1, because what someone thinks is an improvement, another will say ruined the game and will quit. But what is clear is that it does not have the integrity of the fresh-from-the-box Prophecies game. And it is the integrity of that first released version that is responsible for nearly all of your sales. You have developers with talent, just keep their ears away from anyone who has only played the game for a limited time and could not possibly get the depth of the game as eloquently described by Avarre.

So as you develop GW2, my advice is that you DO NOT attempt to please anyone. The developers of the game need to establish a vision and maintain the integrity of that vision throughout the life of the game.

Avarre · Jun 12, 2008, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

And this, right here, is the most unreasonable demand in your entire letter, and an indication of a wrongful sense of entitlement. Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

Well, firstly, the part you quoted isn't even in my letter. Mainly because I don't expect it.

Personally however, I'd rather go with a company that I know the development goals of. StarCraft 2, for example, is clearly set out as a game being developed for competitive multiplayer, and therefore I know what to expect and what to anticipate. Guild Wars... I don't even know. I don't think anyone does. It's not giving away corporate secrets to at least give us a goal statement.

Cacheelma · Jun 12, 2008, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

You did? YOU?

Am I the only one feeling sad after reading that?

moriz · Jun 12, 2008, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

And this, right here, is the most unreasonable demand in your entire letter, and an indication of a wrongful sense of entitlement. Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

unfortunately for anet and your argument, anet cannot AFFORD to keep everything hidden. doing so will cause them serious problems down the road. with their ability to execute and manage a game with a clear, strong vision current in question, the last thing they should do is to hide everything behind closed doors.

Mad King Corn · Jun 12, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I think the BEST things Anet has done for Guild wars is:

PVE Skills
Heroes
Consumables

and finally the separation of PVE from PVP, that should have been separate from day one.

I am disabled, and the availability of Consumables, PVE skills etc has helped my enjoyment of the game drastically. If it was not for these things, I would have left guild wars long ago. I understand that some people may possess skill and are a bit more mobile than I am, so those people can easily breeze through areas of the game that stop my progress dead in my tracks. I can't tell you how many times I have been so frustrated with a mission or a quest that I just wanted to quit GW forever and not look back. I can honestly say that without certain PVE skills and consumables, Guild Wars would be unplayable and therefore un-enjoyable for me. I believe that Anet created these things for handicapped players like myself, as well as players that simply may lack the ability to create a viable build in areas where there are level 28-30 mobs with almost unlimited energy and health with monster skills that are far more overpowered than the PVE skills that we have at our disposal.
That is why they need to be in the game. Not all of us are gods or elitists at Guild Wars, I just wish more people would try and remember that.

tmakinen · Jun 12, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Well, firstly, the part you quoted isn't even in my letter. Mainly because I don't expect it.

I could have quoted the OP as well, in which you wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The first problem is this. I don’t know who’s making changes to PvE. I don’t know why these changes are being made. ... (snip snip) ... because this is not good for the game.

The first problem with the game is that you don't get to know who calls the shots and why?

Cacheelma · Jun 12, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

I am disabled, and the availability of Consumables, PVE skills etc has helped my enjoyment of the game drastically. If it was not for these things, I would have left guild wars long ago.

If I were told in 2004 that GW will change the entire game to please handicapped people a few years later, I wouldn't have bothered with it.

Am I alone in this?

darkangel921 · Jun 12, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

/signed
BRAVO Avarre, I have been playing since 3/19/05 and and I share every thought and observation in your letter.

moriz · Jun 12, 2008, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

If I were told in 2004 that GW will change the entire game to please handicapped people a few years later, I wouldn't have bothered with it.

Am I alone in this?

nope. computer games, as callous of me to say, are, and will never be, developed with disabled people in mind. at least, games that are aimed at the general public won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The first problem with the game is that you don't get to know who calls the shots and why?

i personally would be very pissed off if i live in a country don't have a clearly defined "leader", and if it never tells me why it manages the country in a certain way. the same holds true for gaming communities.

Chthon · Jun 12, 2008, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 up and 2 down

Actually she is doing her job perfectly, think about it. Anet probably plans on not doing anything about ursan or doing anything significant to PvE balance anytime soon. So would you rather that Regina out right say "We aren't going to do anything about GW1 because we just don't care anymore"? Or should she lie and say "Yes we will fix everything". No she shouldn't because either way lots of people will be pissed when they read the first quote or find out she/devs lied about fixing the game. It's better that she just side steps the main question, that way there will be less anger among the community because they don't know what the devs plan on doing.

Honestly would be a better policy. If the truth is "we aren't going to do anything about GW1 because we just don't care anymore," then say it. First of all, as a moral matter, one ought to be honest, even in business. Even lawyers are honest, well most of them at least. Second, your customers have got to be pretty dumb to fall for that for very long. It's not hard to draw the negative inference from a refusal to answer the question. Third, even the wammos and ursans are eventually going to figure it out, and then you're going to lose more respect and more customers who feel like they were tricked and strung along than if you had just told them the trusth in the first place.

fenix · Jun 12, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The first problem with the game is that you don't get to know who calls the shots and why?

The problem is when they put through changes that none of us want, and don't explain why. Time and time again players like Ensign have posted up VERY large and popular threads on the exact changes that should be put through, and time and time again Anet put through completely different changes, that don't help anyone at all. We just want to know WHY they put through their changes, rather than the ones the community want, as a starting point.

That doesn't require breaking NDA, right?

Laylat · Jun 12, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Great Post

/Signed

P.S.: Can someone please tell me what QFT stands for? Thanks!