Curse

sph0nz · Jun 11, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Epic thread; I feel the same about most of the issues addressed.

At one point I was sure that I wanted to buy Guild Wars 2, but after thinking about the state of PvE and the continued direction of the game, I've been having second thoughts. Further, I'm glad to see that ArenaNet is at least making the effort to have a dedicated GW1 dev team, even when GW2 is released. I'm also glad that Regina took the time to read and post in this thread; it at least displays that ArenaNet is not ignoring anybody.

1 up and 2 down · Jun 11, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Just throwing some stuff out there that I have seen over the years with suggestions from the community on how to improve communication:

- Polls on GW log-in screen. Fast and easy to get all the GW player's opinions, feedback, and gauge interest in new features, skill updates, etc. Works even better then gw.com in terms of reaching your audience.

I think this is desperately needed on the login screen, this way the Dev's can get an accurate idea of what the community as a whole wants and not just what the forum users want.

Dr Strangelove · Jun 11, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

Im sorry but does it seem to anyone else that Regina just gave a complete and utter non-answer?

"Can you tell us if you are ever going to fix this stuff?"

"Sure! Let me tell you about this new blog we are thinking about!"

Just as good as the politicians do it >.<

She answered about the part she knows - CR. In short, she said they really don't know how to fix their CR problem, but they know they have one and would like to fix it. Inde certainly has some good ideas here, and I'm sure JR knows exactly how to fix the problems.

Sadly, it doesn't say much about the rest of Avarre's post, likely because Regina isn't a dev.

Danax · Jun 11, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

Im sorry but does it seem to anyone else that Regina just gave a complete and utter non-answer?

"Can you tell us if you are ever going to fix this stuff?"

"Sure! Let me tell you about this new blog we are thinking about!"

Just as good as the politicians do it >.<

Yeah thats pretty accurate, QFT.

TwinRaven · Jun 11, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

You have mis-interpreted the leet part, it was no way an attack on you personally. The "leet" part was in game "leet" attitude that the game should be constructed towards the "better player" rather than the average player which if I were to interpret that, you are belittling the average player the bread and butter of any game. By the way: I drive a Toyota Tacoma because I like it.

Hmmmm....maybe if the game itself were designed to make the average player better? By that I mean: raise the expectations and the the rewards for meeting those expectations. The average player can still play, but if they get better (skill>time) their rewards in the game increase proportionately.

I only jab the average player with a sharp stick to provoke them into action...they are, afterall, far inferior to the average player two years ago

.

I just hate to see new players come to the game with assumptions that there is only one way to play since the introduction of Ursan, for example. It used to be that players spent time figuring out new and interesting synergies of professions and skills to create unique builds that took full advantage of the cleverness of the player (or ability to copy builds from forums/wikis)...sure it resulted in some overpowered builds: IWAY, Minion Factory, 55-105 monk/necros, Barrage Splinter and the like....but that was the charm of a new game - figuring out how to become as powerful as possible so you could dominate certain areas in the game. ANet has "balanced" the game in a way that has removed a large number of these builds and replaced them with one: Ursan.

With Ursan, everyone can do it without consideration as to class or skill or creativity (I assume that's why so many QQ threads over it...never tried it, personally and couldn't give a rats ass one way or the other). My only objection to it would be the dummy-factor: anyone, regardless of skill or class, can farm for rank, get the skill and plow through the game easily...without skill. To me, that kind of condesention by helping out "joe average" diminishes the overall game. I see why people feel it ruins the game (though I don't particularly feel their pain, I see their point).

I honestly beleive that a game with higher expectaions and greater depth is good for the gaming community as a whole. By making games a little more difficult, requiring creative thinking and a greater degree of problem solving, we end up as better players with more interesting games to play. Catering to the "average" player, and making games too easy, it really makes the game disposable...play to the end and quit because you beat it.

I would like to see changes made to the way things are now to help the longevity of GW2. I plan on playing it, for good or ill, because I dig the way ANet started GW. I hope they return to the basics that made GW a great game while giving us a new and interesting game in GW2...hopefully it will come together.

P.S. I miss my Toyota, but the cost of the commute was killing me...You just can't haul plywood in a Hyundai

Steps_Descending · Jun 11, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

You have mis-interpreted the leet part, it was no way an attack on you personally. The "leet" part was in game "leet" attitude that the game should be constructed towards the "better player" rather than the average player

Actually the thing is, they haven't balanced the game for the average OR best gamers, they balanced it for the worst player. That is their mistake.
See : Ursan Blessing, consumables, Shadow Form.

I am not saying they should not have implemented the first 2 at all. They simply implemented overpowered versions of those.

4thVariety · Jun 12, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

PvP and PvE have essentially grown into two different games branded with the same franchise name. While PvE has introduced ways of making the game accessible, PvP remains a highly frustrating juggernaut. One might say that this will make winning to be more rewarding, but I know some people who do not play games for reasons of self-punishment, rather have a more laid back approach towards their free time and do not need competitive self-affirmation. Hence PvE and PvP became two different games. The alleged superior adaptability and skill of the PvP players is, however, very limited when it comes to accepting new game modes besides Team Deathmatch ganking. "Omg, we have to capture strategic locations, wtfbbq, this ain't PvP qq."

I also remember a flash flood of threads claiming that Nightfall was too hard. Big surprise, one year later it is too easy. Could it be that people actually get better? But make no mistake, nerfing Ursan will not bring back an elusive definition of skill based on failing at playing the game. It will only lead to the second dirtiest way of farming gold to be exclusively used. Because that is what Ursan boils down to. It's a gold farming skill used at areas of high revenue. It is an illusion to think that if Ursan did not exist, all of you would find a good Pugging group to raid the UW. No, the game would take a step back to two-man farming or groups of three smiting their way. That's not an improvement, that's another layer of the same thing and you would still not find a group. You would still be poor and you would still be frustrated with drops.

Inside well organized guilds Ursan is not annoying at all. It's a fun addition to the game. Remember when you asked for mounts to ride on that do extra heavy damage? Remember when Izzy shrugged that off? Now Ursan basically does what people always expected of riding a fiery dragon through town and suddenly it is wrong? The only thing Ursan hurts are the feeling of those that lived in the dreamland of exclusivity and representative vanity. But no, you are not the only ones in the world to own equipment X or have a few titles. And yes, those titles are dirt cheap even without Ursan, IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS! Each time Arenanet makes a step to keep the game playable, some players with very elitist attitudes ask for those measures to be removed and the game to be turned into an exercise of self-mutilation which only the forum masters can suffer though. But that's not gaming, that is the reason why Fury failed, that's the reason why many other games failed. Being too hardcore can be a bad thing.

So stop complaining the game is too easy and recognize the truth: dying at Thunderhead Keep were not the good old times of balance, it was your epic fail at playing the game. Even if Ursan forces players down the road where the build itself is no longer the issue, they still can screw up at every corner and they still pump themselves up with consumables. Is the proposed alternative really a game which only 5% of the players can complete? If that's the case, then GW would really be doomed. Tombs of the Hardcore is not a viable expansion. I remember the time when a FoW run took 4h. The build our "leet" team used then would now get us kicked from every group for being noob (even if Prophecies was still the only chapter). Who cares if there is a skill that cuts the completion time down to an hour even for the general public? After all, that's content they paid for and that's fun they are having. You are welcome to shoot your own foot before entering each raid, but don't expect to meet too many players who are on the same page about it.

The same goes for the information policy. Three years of being nailed to an imaginary cross for every delay can do that to a developer, I guess. I remember how open the details about Factions were shared in advance. Like little children proudly presenting a drawing to their parents did the senior staff spill most the guts about Factions in advance to interviewers and podcasters. They even did an open beta which showed off large portions of the game. Boy did they get burned for that by the community. Until today, Factions has not recovered from the hate this open information policy caused. It is still considered the worst expansion, although all current major points of hate towards the game originate from NF or EotN. You might hate grinding, but what you really hate are people having something that you don't. That's called envy. To measure the hate towards grind type /favor in the game. To measure your envy towards other players look at your own suggestions. 99% of the times they are optimized to make your gaming style the measuring stick for all players. How sweet.

Airstu · Jun 12, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

/notsigned

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverblad3
GW needs new blood.
GW is still different to many games.
GW or any other game you play is what you make of it, or do not.

Its amazing that in the horribly wrecked game I still manage to have fun, meet up with people regularly that I call friends and enjoy our days, evenings ,weekends doing something that we like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon
Hey now, if you're going to call this "epic useless QQ", that's trolling and will have your post deleted.

Sorry, Im not about to stand in line and sing coomby ya to

Quote:

a re-packaged "Nerf Ursan" thread.

. Its always the same names saying the same things and amazingly enough, your PvE experience does not matter in the least bit to mine. I paid my money, have enjoyed well over 2500 hours of entertainment for a measly $250. Thank you anet for creating an AMAZING game. I only wish I could get such a return on my money from other investments.

SerenitySilverstar · Jun 12, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

One simple rule in ALL games:

Life cycle. And players experience that life cycle at their own pace.

There will be newbs, noobs, casuals, veterans and elitists. All the game tries to do is find a balance for them all. You just have to accept that not everything will go 100% your way all the time.

Wildi · Jun 12, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Lots of stuff is wrong and unclear in that phonebook length post but its not my fault.

The biggest mistake was when anet forced PvP rules to a complete different game type (PvE), its like balancing skills around Hero Battles and then you say enjoy GvG. Would you like to play GvG with skills balanced around HB ? When you force PvP garbage on PvE the game feels like monster PvP match, not a PvE experience and thats why people leave who want PvE experience. For the same reason you can not balance every skill around GvG and then expect PvE to be happy. That doesn't work, guess why they split the skills of the game. However the changes came too late and most PvE'ers already left the game.

Esan · Jun 12, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

I've read through your criticisms and concerns.

But has anyone else at Anet? I think part of the reasons for this thread is the impenetrable PR barrier that Anet surrounds itself with. The PR team have an easy deflection--that you are simply the conduit between the devs and the great unwashed--that has become immensely tiresome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Dev Blog

Many Anet employees who have a wiki presence keep a journal of sorts on the wiki. It would be nice if more devs are encouraged to do the same, and if these blogs were properly collated and popularized, but at the end of the day you will all be under NDAs and other gag orders, so I doubt a Dev Blog will be a real change from the status quo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

We're currently exploring ways in which we can use technology to collect feedback in a more intelligent and visible way. If you have any suggestions, please let us know.

Feedback from users, even ranked feedback, is just as useless as a dev blog. What is needed is interaction -- a developer reading and responding to feedback in a medium like a wiki or a forum and explaining why suggestions are adopted or not -- and pragmatics rule it out, if simply because 90% of the feedback will be disrespectful and juvenile garbage (viz. Izzy's talk page).

Truthfully, the matter has festered far too long and little short of a public firing of the persons responsible for the PvE skills and consumables, followed by an update that removes them and the skill split from the game, will restore any real faith in Anet. Of course, such an update will have to rebalance the entire game in order to do a good job. (Well, I say entire, but only parts of DoA really require it; i know firsthand that no other PvE task in the game requires any overpowered PvE skills or consumables.)

Everyone understands that Anet does not have the will, time or the manpower to do this now to a developmentally dead game.

Instead of feedback gizmos, we need an ombudsman-- someone who advocates for the player community's interests directly to the design team. Hire Avarre in this role, if he'll take the job.

-Sonata- · Jun 12, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Instead of feedback gizmos, we need an ombudsman-- someone who advocates for the player community's interests directly to the design team. Hire Avarre in this role, if he'll take the job.

The only way for a Design team to know what the community interest are is to give the community their right to make their own voice heard. Feedback gizmo systems such as polls and quick survey's allow this. It ensures that everyone, from all walks of play styles and time spent can give input collectively.

This is not a jab at Avarre. His intentions are in good faith and I'm sure he'd work hard if it ever came true. But placing an entire communities interest on the shoulders of one or even two individuals, when that community is vast and extremely diverse, is not practical. Keep in mind we already have a CR rep who has the job of relaying information for an entire community. It's not exactly top-secret that players already have severe issues with how that currently works and has worked in the past.

PANTHOR · Jun 12, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Epic thread +1

PvE skills and their likes was a bad idea from the start to be 100% honest

/signed

maraxusofk · Jun 12, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

this is good shit. not exactly the reason i have quit but wut u stated contributes to my leaving. age of conan is exactly the game taking away from gw playerbase, and wit good reason. it has good pvp with the developers listening to the requests for balance. clarity is definitely needed from developers for this game. i remember a few weeks back there was some update that fixed an "unamed bug." if it was abusable, the least you can do for ur playerbase is to let them know what happened and how they could have been potentially affected. that stunt destroyed my faith in the direction of this company, and i will NOT stay for gw2. (i only lurk these forums cuz i like the community, much like the oldies who have quit this game and why they still go on these forums)

Shyft the Pyro · Jun 12, 2008, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Epic indeed.

I don't usually post when I don't have something to add, but I'll +1 this - only because ANet seems to have become more swayed by numbers than legitimate player concerns

DreamWind · Jun 12, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

STOP with the "it is a dead game, people got bored, get over it" comments. Guild Wars is a little over 3 years old. There are games that have been out for 10-20 years that aren't anywhere near dead yet, and you are telling me the problem with Guild Wars is that it is "just dead"? I think the problems with the game are much deeper than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonata

If I may ask: Which area's, or errors, do you feel are now beyond repair that could only be fixed by Anet? And why can't they be?

Many have already been posted by Avarre. The problem is that many minor changes over the years have turned into massive problems, and there are so many minor problems that they can't all be undone. Ursan in reality is a minor problem...the massive problem is the fact that game balance is screwed up. Ursan is just the poster child for the massive problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonata

Just because a lot of what we, the community, suggest isn't implemented does not mean it isn't heard.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that we're heard more than we realize, but we can't expect to have transcribed meeting discussions.

I don't think that is what people are asking for. The problem is that there is a theory that lack of communication directly affected why the game changes were made. The theory goes that if Anet listened to their customers, they would know that many of the changes made to the game were unwanted.

It is a solid theory. All that matters is the perception that the communication lines are not open, and never have been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonata

Anet doesn't and shouldn't cling to a 3 year old origin. No successful franchise does.

The most successful games of all time stuck with their origins. You shouldn't make constant highly controversial changes to a successful franchise. You make fixes and required updates, but not changes that may not be good for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonata

Anet has no choice in this matter. They either keep the game stagnant, generic, and nothing new; which is already 95% of the MMO market. Or they play around, try things, succeed, even fail, note impacts, lick their wounds, learn and move forward.

But there comes a point where everyone needs to accept that Anet can't do this unless you really want this franchise to die.

This is where I strongly disagree. The problem with Guild Wars is that NOW the game feels stagnant, generic, and nothing new. NOW the game is 95% of the MMO market in my opinion.

The entire original concept of Guild Wars however was dynamic and unique. The MMO market had seen nothing like it (and still hasn't really). Now the game feels extremely mediocre. It seems like the only thing it has going for it as of now is no monthly fee...and that isn't saying much.

So yes, they have to move forward (GW2). That is probably all they can/will do at this point. But looking at the past makes a lot of people skeptical of the future. As they say...the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

I can assure you that our team has a strong goal for what we want to accomplish with Guild Wars 2, and hopefully we can get this across in future communications.

Thanks for responding Regina. Really. I have a question though. What is this "strong goal" for Guild Wars 2? Is it anything like the original goal of Guild Wars 1?

I think the issue is that people have seen Guild Wars 1 stray from its original goal. A lot of people are having a tough time believing that Guild Wars 2:

A. Will have similar unique goals
B. If it does have similar goals, it will stray from them just like Guild Wars 1 did

The Red Messenger · Jun 12, 2008, 01:13 AM // 01:13

wow, took me a long time to read.

I agree with the OP.

pve is extremely imbalanced with recent changes, and needs some serious attention. please return some order to a once great game...

Esan · Jun 12, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

The only way for a Design team to know what the community interest are is to give the community their right to make their own voice heard. Feedback gizmo systems such as polls and quick survey's allow this. It ensures that everyone, from all walks of play styles and time spent can give input collectively.

But should the entire community be heard? Maybe you are not yet disillusioned with your fellow player, but I can predict with more certainty than I have about most things in life that Ursan Blessing and consumables are supported by the vast majority of players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonata

Keep in mind we already have a CR rep who has the job of relaying information for an entire community.

The "CR" team is primarily tasked with being Anet's mouthpiece. They are not advocates for the player community's interests. Who here knew (of) Regina before she joined Anet? What standing did she have in the community? No one and none. I certainly don't trust her to represent the players' interests.

Avarre? He's a curmudgeon with an itchy trigger finger and megalomaniac tendencies, but at least I trust him to speak for me.

Redfeather1975 · Jun 12, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I think the lowest common denominator are people who played GW for more than a year and didn't expect to still like it as much as when they first started.
You know, the ones who've moved on, but will still buy GW2.

Chthon · Jun 12, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

Im sorry but does it seem to anyone else that Regina just gave a complete and utter non-answer?

"Can you tell us if you are ever going to fix this stuff?"

"Sure! Let me tell you about this new blog we are thinking about!"

Just as good as the politicians do it >.<

I think she gave a reasonably direct answer to one, specific, not-particularly-important subpoint of Avarre's criticism -- the lack of transparency. The feedback-collecting channels she describes may be disappointingly embryonic, but that doesn't make her answer any less direct or honest. You just didn't like the answer.

But, you're right that she did totally sidestep the most important issue -- they've made a total mess of GW1, and seem to be thrashing around directionlessly, destroying the game as they do so. Are they going to fix this stuff? How? Dunno. She dodged the issue.