Curse

Dark Paladin X · Jun 22, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

chance to do what? to get cheap stuff? why does it matter if it is cheap? where is coolness? where is sense of accomplishment? where is anything in that?
and what about people who worked hard farming fow/uw/doa/urgoz/deep/etc to get those ecto just so now every nub could get them almost for free?

Well, consider a real life example:
The reason why the United States health care sucks (not saying in quality, im saying in affordability) because health care is simply too expensive (not to mentioned being denied care if you can't afford it). In Canada, UK, and Japan, however, the quality is the same no matter what, but they get things cheaper.

With armor in hand in GW, the level 20 armor is the same as 15k armor, malus the looks. Honestly, I want everlasting tonics to be affordable and why is it 130 ectos when you don't get party animal points from it.

As such, perma-shadow doesn't need a nerf or anything.

Ambuu · Jun 22, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

Honestly, I want everlasting tonics to be affordable and why is it 130 ectos when you don't get party animal points from it.

Everlasting = infinite change for you character
Everlasting + party animal points = Automatic maxed party animal title?

Lothlorian Sassun · Jun 22, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The thing is that not all professions have an 'invicibuild'.

Either you give each profession one, or you remove the ones that exist for the others.

No you make the profession that does have one and level him up as quick as you can.

I didn't have a PvE Sin a month ago. I didn't have an open character slot to make one either. So I bought a slot in the online store. I don't play 24 hours a day so it did take me 2 days to get my new Assassin to level 20, ascended, and ran to ToA.

Alex Morningstar · Jun 22, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Favor is going to run out eventualy. That'll take it out well enough, prices for scrolls/ectos go up, people still get their previous overpowered SF and the UW doesn't get messed with.

TheDragonmaster · Jun 22, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

The thing is that permaform:

A) Was possible, and about as viable for UW solofarming as VwK or terra before the buff, but took good timing.
B) Is easier, and more viable for UW solofarming than VwK or terra after the buff.
C) Will still be possible, and about as viable for UW solofarming as VwK or terra after a nerf that resets it to its pre-buff duration, but will take good timing.

I'm for a nerf to put SF back in its (old) place. I solofarmed UW with permaform before the buff (although not exclusively), I solofarm UW with permaform now (although not exclusively), and I will still solofarm UW with permaform after a nerf that removes the buff (although not exclusively).

I have as of this time 6k and no ectos on my account, as I used it for a trade.

Robbert Monga · Jun 22, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

Well, consider a real life example:
The reason why the United States health care sucks (not saying in quality, im saying in affordability) because health care is simply too expensive (not to mentioned being denied care if you can't afford it). In Canada, UK, and Japan, however, the quality is the same no matter what, but they get things cheaper.

With armor in hand in GW, the level 20 armor is the same as 15k armor, malus the looks. Honestly, I want everlasting tonics to be affordable and why is it 130 ectos when you don't get party animal points from it.

As such, perma-shadow doesn't need a nerf or anything.

clearly you have no idea about healthcare situation in canada... Overcrowded hospitals. Terrible shortage of family doctors. Many things are just NOT funded. You need some weird sugery? Well, too bad - you gonna have to go to US for it.
And yes, that IS because it is goverment controlled and pricing limited.

Also don't play real life examples with me please. My point is already proven. Some barely relevant associations will not disprove it.

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

I will continue to ticket my main point around all this fuss. Its is not set in stone that ecto is a currency. If it were to fail, There are substitutes for exchange rates. But the point is it won't fail. Both decreasing favor and currently stabilizing prices are enough proof. So if it won't fail, then finding a substitute won't be necessary. If finding a substitute isn't necessary, then the change in the ecto market isn't significant. If the change in the ecto market isn't significant, then there is no need for change. No need for change eliminates the need for a nerf. No nerf means you are all complaining in vain.

Invincible assumes there are no counters. There exists counters to SF. Ergo, It is not an invincible skill.

Tarkin · Jun 22, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambuu

The price of ectos has indeed gone down, but it's stabilized (for now) at 4k.
But if you look at one thing: So many people have made Sins/others to farm the UW, and look at our favor. It is slowly decreasing, i remember it was 4,600 minutes and then the next day was down to about 4,200 or so.

So eventually, my theory is, the favor goes down to zero. People end up waiting for someone to make a maxed title so they can get into UW, thus ectos are obtained at a less rate than before. Price of ectos goes up.

but that theory is whack

Sorry but... UW scroll = 1k
Profits from a single run = 3e + trash and gold to sell for 5k every 7 (to me in kanadan

) <> 8e + trash and gold to sell for 5k every 7 (to me in kanadan

)
Favor teory = big fat fail.

Age · Jun 22, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothlorian Sassun

Oh... Sorry I thought you were sad about not having any ecto or gold.

But I'm sure all the "Complainers" will be happy when the PvE Shadow Form nerf does come as I personally think ANET will nerf this. The Funny thing is that an A/Me with arcane echo can perma as well. It is just harder to pull off. All the A/E's out there that have just got wind of the ECTO LOVE that soloing the chaos plains has become will learn and switch. It will not be as easy though seeing as an Ele has some nice AoE damage. However i'm sure there is a build out there than can solo it.

While we are at it lets nerf the 55 by making PS target only other ally. LOL

Or the 600??? Nerf Spirit Bond again. Kick the Recharge up to 20 seconds. Way to many people doing CoF runs. They are making to much money charging for Hard Mode runs.

Or better yet... Make it so you can only take 8 Real people in the underworld with no heroes allowed sort of like the Real player demand in HA.

(Can you feel the sarcasm?)

It is PvE..... Guild Wars is over 3 years old. Balance is needed in PvP for sure. But PvE is just a game. I have done just about everything more than once. I enjoy buffs and gimmick builds now days cause it makes the game fun for me personally. I did all the missions with normal builds long before PvE Skills. I'm working on 30 titles and filling my HoM for GW2 so anything that makes that easier is good with me. I'm going to need a lot of gold to buy sweets, booze,party items and unid golds. So you will find me in ToA Farming Ectos with my A/E until ANET nerfs SF. Then it is off to the next gimmick build for me.

The 600 smite build is not nerfed I don't know where you get that idea from and as to The Favour theory just buy scrolls if you can afford them otherwise it will be along wait.Anet should put ectos ahd shard some place else in varing certian locations.

Lothlorian Sassun · Jun 22, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

The 600 smite build is not nerfed I don't know where you get that idea from and as to The Favour theory just buy scrolls if you can afford them otherwise it will be along wait.

Did I say it was nerfed? Just a sarcastic suggestion that I in no way intended ANET to make real. I don't like nerfs for PvE. I have about 27 UW Scrolls saved up. I get them quite often farming Ecto. And Yes I can afford them

Productivity · Jun 22, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

2) Nerfing Shadow Form WILL effect the ecto prices
Currently, ectos are around 4k ea. Apparently, this is good because it gives more incentive for people to buy because it's cheaper. Economics 101. Cheaper is always better, since people can save more and use the money to buy things. This keeps the economy running. Nerfing Shadow Form will make obtaining ectos even more difficult and such, it will raise the ecto prices and cause people to have less incentive to buy. And because of that, sellers will end up having lots of ectos unable to sell. Besides which, ectos are used to trade for everlasting tonics (which by average, if I'm not mistaken, is around 100-150 ectos) and obsidian armor (which I know lots of people want for the Hall of Monuments).

Lower prices are not allways better and if you'd done the basic economics courses that you are quoting, you would understand that deflation is rarely something desired and instead a erasonable, predictable level of inflation is preffered.

Chushingura · Jun 23, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Neither will be nerfed.

Nerfing Chaos Plains makes no sense because of reasons OP stated. You have an area that existed for such a long time, and Anet will nerf because people started getting ectos easier? No chance.

Nerfing Shadow Form? Kinda kills the WHOLE POINT of splitting PvE/PvP skills, doesn't it?

I find it funny people are still so concerned about wealth in GW. When GW2 arrives, we will ALL be penniless (for the beginnings at least). Unless HoM is changed to allow ANY additions, all your Crystallines, Eternals, Obsidians, FoW armor etc etc will mean JACK ****.

And what is rich really? 100k? 500k? 1000k? Every minipet undedicated? 1000K in storage + 100K on all characters + 250 Ectos/Armbraces etc on every possible storage slot X multiple accounts?

None of that matters. It's just to feed the e-peen.

Pleikki · Jun 23, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambuu

The price of ectos has indeed gone down, but it's stabilized (for now) at 4k.
But if you look at one thing: So many people have made Sins/others to farm the UW, and look at our favor. It is slowly decreasing, i remember it was 4,600 minutes and then the next day was down to about 4,200 or so.

So eventually, my theory is, the favor goes down to zero. People end up waiting for someone to make a maxed title so they can get into UW, thus ectos are obtained at a less rate than before. Price of ectos goes up.

but that theory is whack

Remember that ppl got Scrolls..

Arkantos · Jun 23, 2008, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Nerfing Shadow Form? Kinda kills the WHOLE POINT of splitting PvE/PvP skills, doesn't it?

Not really, no. Shadow forum was already a strong farming/running skill in PvE, and it did not need a buff.

Quote:

I find it funny people are still so concerned about wealth in GW. When GW2 arrives, we will ALL be penniless (for the beginnings at least). Unless HoM is changed to allow ANY additions, all your Crystallines, Eternals, Obsidians, FoW armor etc etc will mean JACK ****.

With that logic, wealth in every online game means jack shit, because the games servers are eventually going to go down.

Peter Acid Eater · Jun 23, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

*snip*
at least 55s and the like have difficulty/failure in many places.

Yeah. Farming titans outside LA with my SV/Necrosis 55 sure is difficult. /sarcasm

Seriously though, perma-SF is pretty easy, but to pretend like you don't even have to try when using it is just untrue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

ANet just needs to bring out an UW armor crafter that needs 250 ecto for a full set. Prices will rocket, players will be happy, screenshotters will take happy screenshots, and all will be well.

Not a bad idea, but I don't think it'll work. People will still complain. The core essence that people seem to be vocalizing is NIMBY-esque (not in my back yard). It's not farming that people have a problem with, it's other people farming that they have a problem with. It's like all the people that act like they are somehow a cut above the rest and are afraid to show their build, in case someone nudges in on their precious loot. (even though they just ripped the build directly from Guru anyways)

Those that want SF nerfed are either:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I'd nerf SF along with the rest of farming builds that are capable of farming ectos.

or

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Could it be that the "nerf SF" people like their ability to farm ecto endlessly but do not want others to do so? Nah, I'm sure it is something else, it really is a real problem when people who purchased the game get to do the same things that someone who devotes their life 24/7 to get too.

Lets face it, it is a real accomplishment to have gotten your Obsidian Armor or other high end item and we can't have all these noobs getting the same things. They really should have an all game announcement every time someone completes that set along with automatic congratulation whispers just in case others do not care if you read someone else's guide and then spent the next three months doing the same simple mindless thing to get it (totally different than spending the next three weeks doing the same thing - yours took longer).

Ecto will stabilize back to where it has been for months once the idiots quit acting like the sky is falling. Farming ecto is boring and the perma-sf sin isn't terribly easier or more productive than the previous alternatives. If the community hadn't of made such a big deal of it few would have made one. As is Ecto are screwed unless a few other builds are killed too - they are just as easy, almost as productive (close enough to not affect prices), and there are plenty of guides with the builds included. Ecto's price fluctuations are more to do with the speculation crowd trying to play the market. The perma-SF sin makes other farming MUCH easier but there were already simple builds out there for anyone that was interested beyond a few weeks of curiosity - or at the least those that have now realized how much more said farming runs make will find those other builds if SF is nerfed to unusable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

QFT. I wouldn't mess around with an area that's been around since Prophecies because ANet decided to mega buff an already good farming skill. Honestly, shadow form shouldn't be the way it is. Whether you think there should be balance in PvE or not, being invincible by the use of 3 skills should definitely not be allowed.

Are you saying that there are no counters or ways around SF? SF is a very powerful farming skill, but it hardly makes you completely invincible. Being a 55 in most areas is practically being invincible, too. Hence the spawning of "invinci-monk" builds.

ANet should either go against all solo farming builds or leave it alone. Cherry-picking a specific farming build over a plethora of others is, IMO, wrong headed. And don't feed me that bull that other farm builds take more skill. That's purely delusional hyperbole.

Kronos Ledaloth · Jun 23, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

i think that at the end of favor, ectos will go up max at 5,5 (as usually) because ppl use to keep uw scrolls

i want my ecto's price back :S

shoyon456 · Jun 23, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by dread pirate fargus

I DONT CARE.

whatever anet decides to do is good enough for me.

I agree. This is one of those topics where anet just can't win, they can only do what seems to be the best option. I personally have farmed about 300 ectos using perma SF and while it seems overly effecient, the devaluing of ecto isnt necessarily a bad thing.

The problem, however, in nerfing the plains itself, is that it will screw up more than just perma sf farmers. Normal (non-ursans mainly) uw clears will face more difficulty aswell.

As much as I bitch and moan like everyone else on most of anet's decisions, i fully acknowledge that there is no "clear choice" on this topic, and will be contented by whatever course of action they choose, if any.

kratimas · Jun 23, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

wealth in every online game means jack shit, because the games servers are eventually going to go down.

Finally somebody gets it !!

Trinity Fire Angel · Jun 23, 2008, 05:48 AM // 05:48

meh... ANet knew exactly what they were doing when they reverted shadowform. Not buffed, but reverted! That;s right... it was PVP that originally nerfed SF.

I am in favour of ANet reverting all skills back to original functionality and power before PVP nerfed them. But that would be too confusing for nwebies.

Personally i wouldn;t care. It;s still hard enough to do the run (dodge charged blackness, manage energy, get past traps, door often spawns 3 and 4 behemoths anyway, newbies getting lost on their way to the plains etc etc). Building the Sin and equipping with runes and sigs still must be done and costs about 20k anyway.

If anything, nerf all PVE skills so they require attribute points and replace your secondary. ie. Ele/Ursan. Ranger/Asuran, Warrior/Lightbringer. And change Norn blessings to no longer be armour ignoring. That kind of damage is restricted to people like Ele's who get exhaustion for that kind of stuff.

Edit: oh, and FIX FAVOUR OF THE GODS !!!!@!@!! 13,834mins of Favour of the Gods is just IMBA and it really should go back to something else that is perhaps affected by PVP like the old HA favour of the gods.

strcpy · Jun 23, 2008, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

Personally i wouldn;t care. It;s still hard enough to do the run (dodge charged blackness, manage energy, get past traps, door often spawns 3 and 4 behemoths anyway, newbies getting lost on their way to the plains etc etc). Building the Sin and equipping with runes and sigs still must be done and costs about 20k anyway.

Having now bothered to go do one that is my opinion too. It is often enough that the behemoths block your path to get there and force you to get hit by a trap to die that it is irritating. I've had as many as 8 in a row where there was *no way* to get by them without killing them. It is also *really* easy to let Shadow Form drop when you are having to watch where your aggro bubble is, where Charging Blacknesses are, where traps from the behemoths are, and what skills are recharged and need cast. I've died a number of times if for nothing else than a little bit of lag stops me in traps or the Charging Blackness catch me.

In the end I can't do the run well drunk and there are UW ecto runs I can that are nearly as efficient. As of right now it is different and enjoyable but that will get old too. I think more people than not will find it that way too - boring and only used when I really need money (which is never now) or am just tired of the other things to do. For the new players that decided to farm this like crazy older builds as just as effective and doable so no real change there.

Quote:

If anything, nerf all PVE skills so they require attribute points and replace your secondary. ie. Ele/Ursan. Ranger/Asuran, Warrior/Lightbringer. And change Norn blessings to no longer be armour ignoring. That kind of damage is restricted to people like Ele's who get exhaustion for that kind of stuff.

I actually kinda like that idea. There is just something doesn't feel right about them though I enjoy their use very much (Pain Inverter rocks - blows UB out of the water if used correctly and I enjoy its use quite a bit). That's not really a nerf either though I am sure others would say so. However at this point probably not really worth the change, it would have been neat if that had been from the beginning.

Quote:

Edit: oh, and FIX FAVOUR OF THE GODS !!!!@!@!! 13,834mins of Favour of the Gods is just IMBA and it really should go back to something else that is perhaps affected by PVP like the old HA favour of the gods.

The current method of Favor works just fine - what is borked was what the double SS/LB points weekend did to it. It was obviously not foreseen what would have happened if for nothing other than the numeric overflow that happened (the so-called favor reset). PvP shouldn't really affect PvE play that much - at least unless PvE play also affected PvP in a similar way.

Non-perma favor would solve a lot of these issues to where both sides would be OK with it even if not really happy. To the people who point out passage scrolls recall that they are *farmed* items too, not unlimited in quantity. Their cost fluctuates and they are *not* remotely in demand now and for quite a long time now. Once perma-favor dies out expect cost to go right on up. Nor are they really a common drop - rarer than ecto in my experience.

The perma-SF sin fixes a lot of issue that casual farmers have had - that was there is no 10-15 minute effective farm with little skill. This needs to make about 800-1k per run - many old farms are now available again that do. This is needed because peopel need to purchase skills, base rune sets, and base armor in a reasonable amount of time to play the game. It really only hurts the top end ecto farmers (so far it doesn't seem to effect DoA farmers).

Most people who play the game are *not* UW farmers, they are casual gamers/farmers. As such I would guess that Anet would be more likely to nerf Chaos Plains in some way. For myself I have a large number of other farms I enjoy more so no biggie - nerf any of it. However I think that a SF farm will hurt the community as a whole more than not. While I have argued otherwise (and since all of the 10 a year I get go directly to the trader I don't really care) I actually do wish ecto to retain it's value - I just don't want the perma-SF sin nerfed to oblivion because a very small portion of players find it bad. I would rather see that individual run nerfed (you could just make it such that traps couldn't get run past and would change it to still doable yet not so easy).