Curse

kostolomac · Jun 21, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

ANET should only listen to people who find bugs , game exploits etc. They shouldn't listen when it comes to game design. Skill balance to some extent , but only from players with experience without agendas , not the "OMG I've spent xyz hours and want this skill nerfed cuz it owns me/ruins economy/game" without evidence and strong arguments.
I have seen very few people who base their arguments on objective statements rather than subjective.

@pumpkin pie: this is much more urgent than some PvE skills

@strcpy: I would quote you for truth , but the text is to long

Kakumei · Jun 21, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

I guess I'm praying that somehow the gw community can change. Maybe.... just maybe if we're lucky we can return to the old days of harmony. When players would help each other, and were friendly, and played the game for fun. When it didn't matter if you had cool weapons, or armor. Today people actually think these stuff matters. I don't know why, but for some reason people actually think the weapon and armor you equip on your character matters.... even though this stuff isn't real.

This time period never existed, and I'm not sure why you think that it did. I suppose the rose-colored glasses store had a big sale.

Samurai Goroh · Jun 21, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

The forum community is just a small minority of the larger guild wars community, every games forum community is full of moans and groans in an attempt to get the game changes to their likeing but when it comes down to it theres a lot more people enjoying the game the way it is then the few that come here or any games forums and complain for changes. Its almost disturbing how much credit the devs give their forum communities because 99% of it is crap and the 1% of legitimate concern get drowned out. The majority of people who play the game dont come on the forums or even know about them. What 250 viewers on this board out of 5 million copies sold? This forum is nothing compared to the real community, which are busy playing the game.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This.

You are just looking at the outer circle (aka - the GW players) and making the assumption that we are a homogeneous group.

Concurred. We, the community, are not a single entity.

And just because a lot of people are supporting an idea doesn't mean that it's smart. It's the reasoning behind wanting the idea that matters, not a number if '/signed' posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

ANET should only listen to people who find bugs , game exploits etc. They shouldn't listen when it comes to game design. Skill balance to some extent , but only from players with experience without agendas , not the "OMG I've spent xyz hours and want this skill nerfed cuz it owns me/ruins economy/game" without evidence and strong arguments.

With any major change to the game, player input is always essential, as seen with the complete reversal of gameplay in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I have seen very few people who base their arguments on objective statements rather than subjective.

Problem is that any suggestion can be turned into look "subjective".

Stolen Souls · Jun 21, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This.

*irrelevant picture*

You are just looking at the outer circle (aka - the GW players) and making the assumption that we are a homogeneous group.

Not sure why I was quoted on three seperate occasions in this thread. I was simply stating the truth.

Change one thing, group A complains.
Change it back, group B complains.
Change nothing, everyone complains.

The whining and complaining will never stop, because the community as a whole does not know what it really wants.

Until you can prove that wrong, I stick with it. Also, I don't care WHY the community is split. I don't CARE about WHY things are like that...I don't need a Psychology lesson. Bottom line is that's how things are, and will remain. So for the most part, I agree with the OP.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

The whining and complaining will never stop, because the community as a whole does not know what it really wants.

And "it" will never know what "it" wants. The community will always disagree with each other, because no one person has the same desires as the other.

Does this mean you should never listen to the community? No.

Stolen Souls · Jun 21, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And "it" will never know what "it" wants. The community will always disagree with each other, because no one person has the same desires as the other.

Does this mean you should never listen to the community? No.

So then how do they determine which "suggestions" to take and which not to? (look back on previous large updates, as well as the split debates on current issues...Ursan, for instance). So if they should, indeed, take the community's advice, what would be the "right" choice about Ursan/Shadow Form? Nerf them, group A complains. Don't nerf them, group B complains. Say nothing about it ever again and let them go...everyone complains.

Sure, they should look at what the community is saying....but take it with a grain of salt. Not base entire changes around what half of the community wants, based on who can whine and QQ more, or who can rack up more "/signed".

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

So then how do they determine which "suggestions" to take and which not to?

You listen to and take heed to the ones that make the most sense. You base changes around the logic that each person provides for their ideas.

It's not about getting everyone to agree with each other (mainly because it'll never happen), but to converse/think about or implement changes that are in league with the game and that are beneficial to its health.

Avarre · Jun 21, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

So then how do they determine which "suggestions" to take and which not to? (look back on previous large updates, as well as the split debates on current issues...Ursan, for instance). So if they should, indeed, take the community's advice, what would be the "right" choice about Ursan/Shadow Form? Nerf them, group A complains. Don't nerf them, group B complains. Say nothing about it ever again and let them go...everyone complains.

If ANet has a clear idea of what they're doing with the game, and the CR's are experienced at the game and have an understanding of both the design goals and the mechanics of the game, then they can filter out suggestions that are bad from suggestions that would work in the game to achieve design goals.

It's the responsibility of Community Relations to determine the quality and validity of suggestions. That is their job.

Stolen Souls · Jun 21, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Well, as a closing I will just say that I still stick with my original post.

Change one thing, group A complains.
Change it back, group B complains.
Change nothing, everyone complains.

That's a fact, there's no need to debate or deny it, as there's is no need to go into detail about the reasoning behind it. It is how things are, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Strain

Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it's important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so.

Yes, I agree that the CRs should read over the suggestions and posts, and I understand about them being able to weed out the nonsense. However, going through the debates about current issues, finding good hard logic amongst the whining, trolling, and "change it because this is how I want it" posts isn't exactly easy. Yes, Anet should read the forums to know what is going on. But they should not base entire decisions on it. Jeff Strain said it himself...most players will never even view a fansite. Just because an idea has more /signed replies on guru, does not mean it is for the best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Not always!

No you're right...not always. But usually. "Change nothing" is in fact, the choice I want them to make with the Shadow Form farm issue. However, how many people want the opposite, and want to see it nerfed to oblivion? This is exactly the point I was trying to make from the start, but people can't seem to accept. That the community is divided in half. And although people seem to realize this, they find it necessary to go into detail about WHY it is. That doesn't matter, and I do not care. The fact of the matter, is that it IS divided, and again...as a whole, does not know what it wants.

Avarre · Jun 21, 2008, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Change nothing, everyone complains.

Not always!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Yes, I agree that the CRs should read over the suggestions and posts, and I understand about them being able to weed out the nonsense. However, going through the debates about current issues, finding good hard logic amongst the whining, trolling, and "change it because this is how I want it" posts isn't exactly easy.

I can generally sum up most of the views on Guru, and I'm a volunteer staff member. It's CR's paying job to be on top of events - they do not have an excuse for not frequenting forums. If it was easy, they wouldn't have to pay people to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Just because an idea has more /signed replies on guru, does not mean it is for the best.

If a member of ANet can't decide what a good idea is just by reading the idea itself, then there's some serious disconnect within the company and no amount of suggestions will solve it. I hope ideas aren't being taken for the reason you correctly declared invalid.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

That's a fact, there's no need to debate or deny it, as there's is no need to go into detail about the reasoning behind it. It is how things are, period.

That's not what me and Avarre are talking about with you. We fully understand that the "community will never be happy". But we're saying that that doesn't mean you should *never* listen to the community.

Yes, it's hard digging through so much shit posts. But if you don't, you won't find any community direction.

With a game like GW, you *need* player input.

Holly Herro · Jun 21, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

A-net should run Guild Wars how Blizzard runs World of Warcraft.

Don't listen to the players I think.

Stolen Souls · Jun 21, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's not what me and Avarre are talking about with you. We fully understand that the "community will never be happy". But we're saying that that doesn't mean you should *never* listen to the community.

Yes, it's hard digging through so much shit posts. But if you don't, you won't find any community direction.

With a game like GW, you *need* player input.

Well I am not saying they should never listen or read the forums, either. I said that I "somewhat" agree with the OP, and that yes, they SHOULD read the forums. But they should NOT take a suggestion as a "good" or "right" decision just because more people are whining for it, or how many /signed replies it has. Some of the player input might even make the decisions harder for them to make (ursan...). I don't really understand how I am giving the wrong impressions here...I am trying to be as clear as I can. >_>

In my original post I even said it is human nature to disagree. I just don't get why my post, which was true, was quoted three times as though I was making an incorrect statement.

Here's my original post, by the way

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Change one thing, group A complains.
Change it back, group B complains.
Do nothing, everyone complains.

Darned humans...

Problem is that the things the community requests are divided in half. Half want it, half want the opposite. And for the most part I agree....they should NOT listen and give in to everything posted on the forums. because the community is divided, and as a whole...does not know what it wants.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holly Herro

A-net should run Guild Wars how Blizzard runs World of Warcraft.

*Listen to the players I think.

Fix'd. Ever been to the test realm forums?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Well I am not saying they should never listen or read the forums, either. I said that I "somewhat" agree with the OP, and that yes, they SHOULD read the forums. But they should NOT take a suggestion as a "good" or "right" decision just because more people are whining for it, or how many /signed replies it has. Some of the player input might even make the decisions harder for them to make (ursan...). I don't really understand how I am giving the wrong impressions here...I am trying to be as clear as I can. >_>

In my original post I even said it is human nature to disagree. I just don't get why my post, which was true, was quoted three times as though I was making an incorrect statement.

You're thinking we disagree with you. We don't.

Akaraxle · Jun 21, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Fix'd. Ever been to the test realm forums?

Umm, dunno about the test forums but try to take a look at the Hakkar realm or Ruin bg forums, check for how long the rants have been going on.

Just pointing out that Blizzard doesn't give a shit either about certain issues -- albeit important.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Just pointing out that Blizzard doesn't give a shit either about certain issues -- albeit important.

If it wasn't for the test realm and forum, Warlocks would've had all of their gear rendered useless. If it wasn't for the test realm and forum, T6 itemization would've lacked stamina.

Just some of the few things changed via player input. While there are still many things in debate, they *do* look to the players.

Vinraith · Jun 21, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Anet needs to have stopped listening to the community a long time ago. It doesn't really matter at this point what they do.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

It's not that they need to stop listening altogether, just that they need to stop listening to the wrong people.

Introverted Dimensions · Jun 21, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

They probably just wanted more people to get factions.