Curse

fireflyry · Jul 05, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Good points Kusandaa.

Personally I stick to my guns and opinion when stating PvE skill potency should in no-way be linked to title rank unless concerned titles involve little to no grind or the skills reach full potential at a lower rank which returns the game to it's original play style, that being casual/average players having as much over-all effectiveness and access, skill wise, as the more serious players that choose to grind a lot.

As far as title related armor access goes I'm indifferent as it's purely aesthetic.

Arkantos · Jul 05, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kassad

Skill is time & Time is skill.

You're not automaticly good at the game, you need to learn the skills, maps, tactics.

No such thing as skill>time.

Skill > time = Gear does not matter, grinding for benefits does not matter. You need skill, not good gear/benefits to win.
Time > skill = If you have the best gear and you grinded for benefits, the game is going to be loleasy for you, no matter how bad you are.

So yes, getting skill does take time, but it's not the same as skill > time and time > skill in MMORPGs.

Back in Prophecies, Thunderhead Keep was a great example of how Guild Wars was skill > time. There was no epic gear, there was no benefits to grind for. It took skill to pull off completing the (at the time) hardest mission in Guild Wars. Ursan is a great example of how Guild Wars is going to time > skill. Get a high norn rank, use ursan blessing, and shit's as easy as pressing c 1 2.

Bryant Again · Jul 05, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

When referring to GW originally being about "skill>time", it's the abandonment made by ANet to stray from the path of being more about what made them unique and less about being an MMO. Usually when people refer to GW now being "time>skill" it's about how you can be in an area, farm and grind up a title, and be able to have an easier time stomping explorables and missions because your PvE skills are more powerful.

Regarding UB: The things that can be learned from it are small, and those things that you learn can be done in much better methods. My biggest concern is that it discourages build diversity, since Ursanway works best with everyone sans Monks having UB on their bar. It's hard to promote that as a "good thing". Team synergy should be encouraged, not shunned.

While it's good for "learning the area", it's not good "learning the area" on what's close to a spectator mode. The only things you learn in this case are the patrol paths. It doesn't prepare you for what to expect when not using UB (hence another problem). A much more healthier and active way to have players learn an area would be toning down the NM of the areas like they did in DoA so as to better prepare them if they wish to see HM.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 05, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Skill > time = Gear does not matter, grinding for benefits does not matter. You need skill, not good gear/benefits to win.
Time > skill = If you have the best gear and you grinded for benefits, the game is going to be loleasy for you, no matter how bad you are.
...

What kind of rewards can you give to players in a game, where gear doesn´t matter and max level is reached within a day? I ask this because you said, that Diablo2 is better because it has a challenge unlike GW and if GW has a challenge, it has no reward for it.

Bryant Again · Jul 05, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

What kind of rewards can you give to players in a game, where gear doesn´t matter and max level is reached within a day?

The same thing that GW's been doing just fine with: vanity based rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I ask this because you said, that Diablo2 is better because it has a challenge unlike GW and if GW has a challenge, it has no reward for it.

He may've referred to the challenge being in proportion to the reward. Speaking for myself, I never find self-imposed challenges (i.e. gimping) to be too rewarding. By not using all of the new overpowered crap in GW, I am not using the tools given to me i.e. gimping myself.

Arkantos · Jul 05, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

What kind of rewards can you give to players in a game, where gear doesn´t matter and max level is reached within a day? I ask this because you said, that Diablo2 is better because it has a challenge unlike GW and if GW has a challenge, it has no reward for it.

As Bryant said, vanity rewards. But seeing as Guild Wars is turning into a time > skill game, and with Shadow Form around gold is nothing, there really aren't any vanity rewards, except for some titles.

Red Sonya · Jul 05, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Guild Wars is Guild Wars. The original idea was skill > time, which was a great idea. Generally when you start a game off as a skill > time game, you keep it that way, so you don't screw people over who bought Guild Wars because of the skill > time aspect. No, I'm not saying change is a bad thing. But when you start a game off as skill > time, then let it grow into time > skill, you'll piss a lot of people off, which game companies do not want to do.

Overall, skill > time was great, and slowly changing into time > skill was unnecessary, for 2 reasons:

1) Skill > time suits Guild Wars more
2) Slowly changing to time > skill pissed off a lot of people

You do not have one bit of proof/documentation or highly supported feedback that shows it "pissed off a lot of people", sorry, but a handful of the same people who invade every thread to whine about time>skill is not a LOT of people. Even a poll of 100 forum members that only 60% (60 people) vote in agreement is no inclination of A LOT OF PEOPLE. I'm really tired of you who think you represent any kind of LOTS OF PEOPLE who play the game instead of go vote on some silly polls or whine on a forum. Until you can provide proof of which you cannot all you are doing is stating an INDEPENDENT feeling toward time>skill and that is all you will ever be able to do or produce. It's a lost cause, Anet isn't changing it and it would appear they are very happy with the changes they have made....I don't see Ursans getting nerfed...how longs it been now? Also, how long have we had grind now?

We've had "The Sky is Falling" threads since the beginning of Guild Wars and guess what? It hasn't fallen yet and the sales are what now 5 million copies sold?

Doesn't look like it pissed A LOT of PEOPLE off to me or the sales figures, GW is like the Energizer Bunny it just keeps on tickin and growing no matter how many of the few sour pusses keep complaining.

Oh one more thing you need to understand as the game changes and I agree it has there are other groups that might become interested (those that like grind and titles) while the few who like only skill>time might disappear. There's usually always something/someone to replace something lost in these online games, that's why you have II's in some of them already and changes that by success of past games proves more people like grind and titles and loot moreso than they care about skill>time. Just add up all those other mmorpgs/mmo's that already have those features and you'll see what stands out as the most enjoyed type of online mmorpg/mmo play.

Bryant Again · Jul 05, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

You do not have one bit of proof/documentation or highly supported feedback that shows it "pissed off a lot of people", sorry...

It depends on your definition of "a lot of people". No, you're not going to see a whole majority of players leaving and ditching the game because of this. As I've talked about deeply (and to you quite a few times as well) the "majority" of players aren't going to leave or be disappointed as long as the surface of the game is pretty and fun.

But I think that the fact that people who know a lot about the game, have offered a very large amount of help to the game and to it's communities, and have been here for a very long time are withdrawing their support from the game is a bit of a concern. You can say "well fine it won't hurt ANet's sales", that shouldn't be the goal: ANet should be able to still do fine *while* maintaining the original aspect and brilliance of their game. In this, they've been doing fine. They were nearing their "4 million copies sold" mark nearly a month after PvE skills were released. The reasonings for their straying nearly entirely of their original destination is very concerning since it wasn't hurting their game in the least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Just add up all those other mmorpgs/mmo's that already have those features and you'll see what stands out as the most enjoyed type of online mmorpg/mmo play.

And here's the problem: There's only one that's been universally successful, rising far above all the competition. Mimicking "the best" is not going to help Guild Wars. In fact, it's likely to do worse because it won't have the amount of "content" that usually comes with a p2p MMO.

Aeon221 · Jul 05, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Go pvp in any mmo and you'll see why GW is still popular. The best most of them have is something like AB. Almost none of them have anything like halls, and there's nothing like GvG out there.

And then you've got builds. We've had more build evolution than any game before or since. Hell, I think it's hilarious that rangers and necros are meleeing and healing successfully with Sway -- what other game lets you do that?

Number one reason to love this game is the lack of gear grind.

Bryant Again · Jul 05, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

Number one reason to love this game is the lack of gear grind.

Oh it's there, just in the form of titles.

Red Sonya · Jul 06, 2008, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Oh it's there, just in the form of titles.

But the thing you leave out as do most others with the exception of GWEN grind is OPTIONAL it is not required or necessary to complete any chapters it is added bonus to those that enjoy titles and grind. Mandatory Grind ends at level 20 and when you have max armor and at least one max weapon for the type of character you play. All of those are easy and simple and any moron can get them and complete all 3 chapters without any futher grind. Thus really everything else is mere optional content that is grind instead of (Anet) having to create a new sub content area every 30 days or 6 months. And as I said before it's obviously working and what is being enjoyed and the reason for increased sales beyond 4 million and now even 5 million. GW2 will have it and even more and well it all boils down to if you don't like it you'll just have to quit playing it or learn to like it like liver & onions or spinach.

It's easy to see where Anet is going, the skill>time method was for Prophecies after that it became time>skill for LONGEVITY of the game as a whole. Only they have the numbers and the data to see how many have quit and how many have joined since the changes. Obviously it must and is working because you don't see them going back on what they have changed with time>skill now coming to the forefront as most of the rest of the POPULAR MMO/MMORPG's already out there now.

I didn't leave Everquest because I was tired of the GRIND, I was just tired of the game ENGINE (camping is boring and about as boring as farming is in GW since there is no evolved loot to get only skins and that's just boring waste of time just for a skin and no power.), if they ever make it solo friendly like GW I'll go back in a NY minute. Everquest has the most CONTENT of ANY MMORPG out there and the largest world of any, it's just too group and guild oriented and doesn't have enough solo fun content. Once again it's pretty obvious what is popular out there and what people will even pay a monthly fee for out there GRIND it is the KING of online gaming it is what brings millions of people back to play day in and weekend out year after year. Sorry you don't like it and the overpowering effects that Anet allows, but, welp you know the ole saying "birds of a feather flock together".

fireflyry · Jul 06, 2008, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But the thing you leave out as do most others with the exception of GWEN grind is OPTIONAL it is not required or necessary to complete any chapters it is added bonus to those that enjoy titles and grind.

I completed GWEN without grinding.

I think the point your missing is that title grind is no longer for purely aesthetic differentiation or "vanity" items but actually effects many core PvE skills and area bonuses, specifically their power and effectiveness, across every campaign other than Prophecies.

In this regard it's far from optional as a player who grinds certain titles earns, as a direct result, a distinct in-game advantage opposed to a player who chooses not to grind.

Big difference and a distinction that should not be confused.

Red Sonya · Jul 06, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Grind does not effect ANY CORE SKILLS only those PVE only based skills. And you really only need to look at the amount of grind it takes to get the Factions set of PVE only skills to realize no one is going to get maximum (10 million faction points) in a day or months play. Also the only really popular PVE only NON-CORE skills I see that are being used are Ursans and Save Yourself. But, these people that use these have EARNED that right to be MORE POWERFUL (something the game lacked for a long long time). I'm definitely for MORE POWERFUL over others and glad Anet took that turn for the BETTER to allow those of us who can play more often to get to that point as I was getting tired of the communism/socialist type of play myself. There should be choices in every game and now there is in GW. All I see now are just jealous people once again who can't stand that there are others who have or can have more than they can based on TIME and SKILL. Even if you have Ursans and SYS you still need to know how and when to use them, but, as any skillset goes I would say most people don't have any skills at all, they have copied them from the websites and have not mastered any special builds of their own. Though you would probably never admit it in a million years you too have probably copied someone else's build from some website.

Time and Reward for that time is real in life and should be in all game worlds. If I goto a 4-8 year college and you don't I should be rewarded for that with a better job and income. I'll be a doctor or lawyer and more powerful than a ditch digger as it should be.

fireflyry · Jul 06, 2008, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Firstly I said "core PvE skills" in the regard of the powerful and integral PvE only skills.Excuse any confusion.

Secondly I objected to PvE skill potency being linked to title grind.

It's not jealousy at all, it's objection to an imposed game mechanic, that being need for grind to attain maximum skill power.

Thanks for the rant though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Time and Reward for that time is real in life and should be in all game worlds.

Umm...no.

I like playing games, not work simulators.

Bryant Again · Jul 06, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But the thing you leave out as do most others with the exception of GWEN grind is OPTIONAL it is not required or necessary to complete any chapters it is added bonus to those that enjoy titles and grind.

About it being optional: tell that to PUGs.

But it doesn't matter if it's "optional" or not, only that it exists. You're bringing up the DL;DU argument again.

Red Sonya · Jul 08, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

DL/DU is not an arguement it is a fact.

If you don't like liver & onions do you still eat it anyway? I don't think so.

Fact is all PVE only skills are OPTIONAL and not required to complete any of the chapters that's the point I am making and have always made. What you guys are trying to do is say EVERYONE should play the way YOU think they should play and ANET shouldn't put anything into the game that YOU don't LIKE. Sorry, but, that's not the nature of business or and Anets focus is to BROADEN how people CAN play if they CHOOSE too. So, if you want in UB groups guess what? You're gonna have to play like the UB groups want YOU to play not the way you want THEM to play. Remember MAJORITY ALWAYS rules and yah need to get used to that fact most of all.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 08, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I find skill>time kind of ironic when it takes time to develop skill in the first place.

Bryant Again · Jul 08, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I find skill>time kind of ironic when it takes time to develop skill in the first place.

But in that frame of mind, you're completing areas because you're skilled. Not because you invested a lot of time in leveling your character or grinding up a title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

DL/DU is not an arguement it is a fact.

...That it is not applicable in the usage of a game when excusing drastic game changes, mainly due to the fact that it excuses/ignores any and every overpowered thing that you could ever imagine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

EVERYONE should play the way YOU think they should play and ANET shouldn't put anything into the game that YOU don't LIKE.

I don't care how anyone plays the game. I don't care if you used a skill that gave you one trillion hit points, or an item that kills anything in one hit. My concern is with ANet and the directions they're taking. If I disagree with a certain direction, I'll say so, and state why I consider it unhealthy for the game.

fireflyry · Jul 08, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

DL/DU is not an arguement it is a fact.

If you don't like liver & onions do you still eat it anyway? I don't think so.

Fact is all PVE only skills are OPTIONAL and not required to complete any of the chapters that's the point I am making and have always made.

And that repeated mantra is where your argument...opps I mean opinion...fails

No single skill or group of skills is "required" to complete the game but all of them are attainable at max power without grind, the only exception being PvE only skills.

Yes they are optional but that is unanimous across the full range of skills so it is not a valid point in the given context.This is not the point of contention or difference.

PvE only skills require grind to max and are in many cases hugely defining skills that have a HUGE effect on how the game plays and feels, [save yourselves] and [critical agility] being only a couple of examples, when compared to non-PvE only skills.

A lot of people object to this.

PvE skill potency is directly linked to title rank.Other skills aren't.This is not an option.

PvE skills are usually integral or OP'd and are hugely influential on over-all build power and the players effectiveness in-game when compared to non-PvE skills.This is not an option.

PvE only skills directly segregate player power and make those that like or enjoy grinding more powerful than those that don't.This is not an option.

Get the distinction yet?

It's not about the option to use PvE only skills or not but the fact grind is required to attain their maximum power.

Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

What you guys are trying to do is say EVERYONE should play the way YOU think they should play and ANET shouldn't put anything into the game that YOU don't LIKE.

Nobody is saying that.

Please take the time to actually read and discern actual opinion rather than incorrectly state what YOU think others are saying to suit your argument...I mean opinion.Your actually contradicting yourself as your clearly stating that if I want those PvE skills at maximum potency I should have to play your way...grindwars.

Thats wrong.It takes the average player and immediately makes them less effective or powerful in game compared to someone who has grinded titles.

Grind in regard to PvE only skills = having more power than those that choose not too.

I don't like title grind and I don't want to have title grind directly linked to attaining or maxing skills certain "uber" PvE skills.I don't give a crap about titles, "vanity" grind based rewards or you grinding all week if thats your idea of fun.More power to you and that's your right.I do care about it being dictated that access to such skills at their most efficient requires me to play like you do which I don't enjoy at all.

This can be easily implemented while still preserving enjoyment of the game for me, and you, and if you can't see that the current system has been poorly implemented in this regard I'm not sure you ever will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Remember MAJORITY ALWAYS rules and yah need to get used to that fact most of all.

No Anet rules, the majorities only power is to attempt to influence Anet if they see something wrong and demand or request change.If you don't think the majority have agreed this was a bad idea and system from the moment it was released you need to read more and post less.

Maximumraver · Jul 08, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Skill > time = Gear does not matter, grinding for benefits does not matter. You need skill, not good gear/benefits to win.
Time > skill = If you have the best gear and you grinded for benefits, the game is going to be loleasy for you, no matter how bad you are.

So yes, getting skill does take time, but it's not the same as skill > time and time > skill in MMORPGs.

Back in Prophecies, Thunderhead Keep was a great example of how Guild Wars was skill > time. There was no epic gear, there was no benefits to grind for. It took skill to pull off completing the (at the time) hardest mission in Guild Wars. Ursan is a great example of how Guild Wars is going to time > skill. Get a high norn rank, use ursan blessing, and shit's as easy as pressing c 1 2.

Massive QFT.

You just won every Skill > Time discussion on the forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

And that repeated mantra is where your argument...oops I mean opinion...fails...

*Lots of text*

...you need to read more and post less.

And you win too.