Curse

zwei2stein · Jul 11, 2008, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

in PvE you don't *need* absolutely perfect shields with all those hard to get mod combinations.

in PvE you don't *need* anything to succeed.

getting to max level? meh! you suck if you need to be max level!
having full party? lol! only morons pve with full party!
15 att quests? just noobs do those (this one i have actually heard in game)

Inscriptions just made it possible for average player to actually get equipment they like.

For those "paht loot" people, r8 were made much much rarer so finding r8 is about equal (or even harder) than finding perfect noninscribable.

Yawgmoth · Jul 11, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

We're talking about making pve characters pve ready. If you want to beat people that have full access to these mods you need them too.

Being able to complete tasks faster than other skilled players is the only meaningful measure of success PvE has to offer.

Lol?
And you still stick to that BS?
Since when PvE is about 'beating people'?
Show me a where 'meaningful measure of PvE success' is actually measured and has any meaning in game and that really depends on the tiniest bits of performance loss you might have from not having the absolute perfect equipment available. You mean the difference of a 1 point in the Competetive Missions nobody plays?

1% here or there doesn't matter at all, the effect of imperfect equipment on your overall performance is much lower than 1%. It's player skill that matters, teamwork, positioning and skill usage thats 99.9% of success. And as for items, there are lots and lots of different CONSUMABLES available, 1 single consumable buff item is as powerful as another skill on the bar, a +100hp or a +25% faster attacks greatly overcomes any imperfections you could have with your weapons, not to mention you can have more than 10 of them on you all the time.

And dont tell me again about some kind of PvE competition where every milisecond counts, where uber-powerplayers with extreme skills compete for a big prize of being the PvE gods, and that they have all consumables available too. But they're poor and without inscriptions they couldn't afford +15% weapons from crafters.

Just Rofl

cellardweller · Jul 11, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Lol?
And you still stick to that BS?
Since when PvE is about 'beating people'?
Show me a where 'meaningful measure of PvE success' is actually measured and has any meaning in game and that really depends on the tiniest bits of performance loss you might have from not having the absolute perfect equipment available. You mean the difference of a 1 point in the Competetive Missions nobody plays?

/age
All the factions missions are even nice enough to tell you your result without asking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

1% here or there doesn't matter at all, the effect of imperfect equipment on your overall performance is much lower than 1%. It's player skill that matters, teamwork, positioning and skill usage thats 99.9% of success.

Sure it is - and when the match is close, any favoritism in the playing field tips the scales. Lets say for instance that your PB for particular different mission is 62 minutes, one day you find yourself a miraculous drop of 5 +10vsX shields and give them to your team to replace their -X/condition ones. Then next day you score a 61 minute time on that mission. How are you supposed to tell how much of that was a result of your skill and how much was a result of you grinding away till you got the miraculous luck drop? There's no way to tell unless all items are easily available to anyone and then item selection becomes as much a part of strategy as skill selection.

Quote:

And as for items, there are lots and lots of different CONSUMABLES available, 1 single consumable buff item is as powerful as another skill on the bar, a +100hp or a +25% faster attacks greatly overcomes any imperfections you could have with your weapons, not to mention you can have more than 10 of them on you all the time.

Yes and there's pve skills too, obviously you're not going to be playing against people using cheats anymore than you'd be playing with them at any other type of game.

Quote:

And dont tell me again about some kind of PvE competition where every milisecond counts, where uber-powerplayers with extreme skills compete for a big prize of being the PvE gods, and that they have all consumables available too. But they're poor and without inscriptions they couldn't afford +15% weapons from crafters.

If you're not attempting to complete missions faster and better than the next person then I can only assume you're defining success to be "completing the mission" - and yes if you're going to set the bar so low that the average family pet can achieve it then equipment of any kind is entirely optional.

Ethernet Runner · Jul 11, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Main Thing here: Max weapons are not needed to suceed.

If you feel that they are, pick up a crimson carapace shield, then you dont have to work for your equipment.

Want to know what effects gameplay more than a 1% dmg bonus? SKILL!

Example: I always loved the shing jea arenas, and pwning all of those guys with their maxed mods and maxed armor.
So, I made an assassin, there were probably 2 people in the arena that could kill me without using shield bash.
By the way...I used PEPPERMINT DAGGERS against everyone.

If you still feel like you need max items, then fine.

When I started prophecies on my monk shortly after the release, I probably got to level 20 after 2 weeks (at that time, it wasnt a PLevel competiton on who can level up the fastest), about two days after I reached level 20, I got a perfect mod staff of the proffession I wanted. I was NOT a solo grinder or anything trying to get that weapon, up until then I would use collector or weapon crafter items. I killed stuff in teams of 8 (humans) and got a max item after 2 weeks of PLAYING...

You accuse me (and people that agree with me) of being greedy high end traders...how greedy is it that you want to be able to make a character, and get max weapons on him/her the SAME DAY. Probably not greed there, more laziness than greed.

I must admit, I will use inscribables in a pinch if I need one, but if they werent there anymore, I wouldn't QUIT guild wars. I would just look around for a better mod with my poorer mod.

Another thing. On my monk, when I started playing, I was like those monks that feel that they need to attack the monsters and help out.

Thing is, I used a wand, and kept getting too close to caster enemies and dying.

I developed a technique called "bare handed monking" so that I would not attack enemies. It was a technique in which I unequipped my wand/staff (sometimes still used a focus) and still ran my WoH just as well as I normally did. my focus at the time was a white +12 with 9 divine favor focus. That didnt stop me from finishing the forgemaster runs (I liked doing them because I liked using random mixed dyes I made on chaos axes to see what they looked like).

Another arguement is "well we need easy to get good mods so we can compete with the PvP characters"

The entire point of bringing PvE to PvP is to show off your sweet armor and the weapons that you "worked so hard for"

If you don't have the max items and want to bring PvE to PvP, then:
1. If you have show-off worthy equipment but no max modded weapons/offhands, then you are either very unlucky, or you suck.
2. If you do not have show off equipment, then why bring your PvE character into PvP? Make a frickin' PvP character!

All I got to say for today.

Cheers,
Ethernet Runner

Cass · Jul 11, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethernet Runner

Another thing. On my monk, when I started playing, I was like those monks that feel that they need to attack the monsters and help out.

Thing is, I used a wand, and kept getting too close to caster enemies and dying.

I developed a technique called "bare handed monking" so that I would not attack enemies. It was a technique in which I unequipped my wand/staff (sometimes still used a focus) and still ran my WoH just as well as I normally did. my focus at the time was a white +12 with 9 divine favor focus. That didnt stop me from finishing the forgemaster runs (I liked doing them because I liked using random mixed dyes I made on chaos axes to see what they looked like).

"Bare handed monking" LOL That's got to be one of the most backward things I ever read here. Did you at some point contemplate what would happen if you would *not* hit the spacebar?

Non-inscribables are still here, still as rare as always, and as prestigious in the eyes of the weird cult of twisted collectors. Where's the problem?

zwei2stein · Jul 11, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

"Bare handed monking" LOL That's got to be one of the most backward things I ever read here. Did you at some point contemplate what would happen if you would *not* hit the spacebar?

Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Non-inscribables are still here, still as rare as always, and as prestigious in the eyes of the weird cult of twisted collectors. Where's the problem?

Problem are not "twisted cultist collectors" - those people are way way WAY above paltry stuff like ordinary perfect rare skined golds or inscribables.

It's is all about middle class people who fancy themselves to be collectors of rare items to whom 100k-long-ago item being inferior both in skin and stats to 1k trash/mechant foder is way too hard and to whom such items gave illusion of being prestigious and rich.

I had to deal with it too ... my precious 100k+ecotes fire zodiac staff because utter shit that people would bin nowadays ... stuff happens.

Ethernet Runner · Jul 11, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Meh, was trying to get my point across, but it is so tempting to hit space -.-

Evil_Necro · Jul 11, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I love inscribable.

I am not those kind of people who are as a collector in this game. I am more tend to care about nice weapons art, and when they don't have the inscribable ver. I would usually just forget abt it. i.g Zodiac shield, now I can make it perfect, just need to see whether its inscribable or not, no need to look at the req. or inherent mods.

Although I must agree, that in the past, it's so awsome to see you get 13^50 weapon and it's gold.

-tora-

Ethernet Runner · Jul 11, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

But doesnt the fact that you get rare expensive items cheap ruin the point of you collecting rare expensive items? lol.

ex: -5 (20%) +30 zodiac shield in the day was worth a ton. Now it is worth a bit, bu hardly as much. Now it is probably 300 times easier to get those mods on a r9 zodiac shield lol...

Shigernafy · Jul 11, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Interesting subject, Ive thought about it a lot since the inscription system first came out. Sure its nice to be able to have pretty much any weapon/skin/mods that you want in a reasonable amount of time. It does help to equip heroes and your other, less played characters with crap that really doesnt matter that much. But I agree whole-heartedly with they inscription nay-sayers. Inscriptions were in general a bad idea. Why? Because items used to be worth something, but now that anybody has access to absolutely anything they want, whenever they want, within reason of course (No r7/8 crystalline/eternal/voltaic/etc..) with very little effort.

(Personal experience) So that R8 15^50 you found back in the day with the crap skin, you know, the one you customized because it was quite possibly the best item (stat-wise) you'd ever held, is now worth next to nothing, thanks. I personally see inscriptions as a poor-man's replacement for 'real weapons', the kind for people who can't actually get the items they want without having to resort to an inscription.
I see items like this: Inscription/Damage Mod -> Requirement -> Skin
If any one fails, the item is pretty much worthless to me and the only options are to merch it, or equip it on a hero Ive never used an probably wont ever use (and if I do, Ill get them a 'real' weapon).

I know, this thread is a cold, bitter war, and I dont want anybody to take this personally, but people with non-inscribable just get a ton more respect from me because I see them as taking their profession and the entire game seriously. People who use inscribable weapons I see as people who want the 'easy' way out, and just as a side note, this applies to everyone, it doesnt matter whether or not you're the best, most skilled player in the game, inscribable weapons will bring you both less respect(from me at least) and brand you with a special kind of 'cheap/lazy' player tag.

I know the stats might not be different at all, which means no difference performance wise between two players of equal skill level, but non-inscribable is far superior to inscribable in absolutely every way.

I think Yawgmoth said it best: "The whole inscription system was imho the single worst thing that has happened to GW since release."
To this I completely agree, and although it is completely off topic, Ive felt this way since they were first introduced, and immediately beat out my hate for both minis and greens.

Just my two cents =D

EDIT: For grammar and pretty-ness

MithranArkanere · Jul 11, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Inscribables change just ONE thing:
- They allow to change one variable property in weapons.

They do not increase the base damage, they do not make items drop with less req, they do not appear always, they do not force the 20%HSR in staves.
They just allow people to change a variable property, just like the other upgrades do.

They are just like insignia.
Base properties should depend on the item.
Variable properties are variable, and should be changeable.

GW is not a MMORPG, or a Roguelike, an Adventure RP or a Hack and Slash game. There will not be a better item compared with the last. It's just base, and then upgrades and skins, that's all in items.
All weapons have damage, all shields have defense, all foci have energy, all staves have %HSR, but NOT all swords have +15%^50, so that's variable, and in GW variable properties should be replaceable with others.

Guild Wars II will probably have the king of the hill stuff for items, but GW will never have it.

In Guild Wars you stop using non-max weapons pretty soon and maxed weapons are REALLY easy to get. And there are no level requirements in weapons.
You know what I mean? Non-max weapons are toys. And the big deal is in low-req max base weapons. Those still drops and under inscription req 7 are still quite rare.

The fixed inherent properties force rarity in pretty common skins that drop all over the place like long swords, while inscriptions maintain a fair amount of rarity in rare skins, like the Golden Talons.

If you see the drops in Prophecies and Factions, you'll se mostly merchant Fodder.
If you see the drops in Nightfall, Factions and reward chests, you'll see fairly spread drops and skins. Not always the same, not always merchant fodder, not always perfect drops.

The old drop system only worked for old farming, without the loot scaling.

Now it's an old system that is useless for the Non-hard farmer player. As useless as the old armor system.

Like the Old armor system was changed to fit the new PvP system, the old weapon system should change too.
Whatever it is, drops in Hard Mode and Normal Mode should be the same in ALL campaigns. If they want to keep the old useless system, it should be kept for all campaigns and all drops, i they want to apply the new versatile system it should be applied to all campaigns too.

It's doesn't matter if they make the old system to normal mode and the new to hard mode and vice-versa, or all to the new system or whatever, but make it the SAME worldwide.

Retroactivity, Equitability, al things must be square.
I hear a lot of people talking about balance versus lvl 30 monsters with attributes at rank 20 and monster skills, but people tend to forgot the real equilibrium of things.

When it comes to items, there are few things left to do:
- Weapon upgrade traders.
- More attractive customization and customization effects for offhands so mre items are removed from the market and new room is made for new ones.
- Dye system/armor skin repair, there are too many items that do not allow dyes and many dye incorrectly.
- Xunlai Marketplace.
- Naming convention: 1 Name <-> 1 Skin. No skins with multiple names, no names for multiple skins.
- Complete sets.

And this one, the most important one:
- Inscriptions worldwide.

There are always people that want to keep their items expensive, but, open your eyes, even if items are rare they will keep dropping, and if people don't have to customize them to use them they will not to sell them later if they find a better item.

If you want the new items having higher prices, you should ask for require customization to equip items (just like with armor and all PvP equipment) to remove items from market and make room for the new. Want to believe it or not, that's the truth.

Hyper Cutter · Jul 12, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Inscriptions haven't made weapons less rare, all they've done is reveal how rare weapons actually are. Before, people screened out the weapons with bad inherent mods, creating an artificial impression of rarity.

And I'm still not sure why Anet seems to lump wand wrappings, focus cores, and shield handles (all of which were needed!) with inscriptions and not allow them to be applied to uninscribable weapons (they're the only mods with that limitation).

Ethernet Runner · Jul 13, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

I don't see how you can think that inscriptions do not change rarity.

Lets give an example.

A random inscribable item that is rare has the same drop at as a rare uninscribable.

Odds of uninscribable having perfect (perfect GOOD I should say...ex: not 15^hexed) mods are about 1/20 (maybe more, maybe less, just throwing a number out there)

100 of the inscribable rare are dropped. following 1/20 ratio, 95 of them have imperfect mods...but it doesn't matter, you can swap the mods anyways.

On the uninscribables, following the same ratio, only FIVE of the weapons have good mods that people would want.

Therefore, in a farming day, uninscribables have a 5% chance of having sellable mods, while inscribables have a 100% chance...and you say that has NO effect on rarity/sell value?

At that point, it wouldn't matter how many assassins farmed the raptors. Maybe 1 out of 50 runs would yield an elemental sword. We will give that two hours for the not-so-speedy farmer. If there were a 5% chance of that ele sword having good mods, let alone good req, then there would be -drumroll please-.......a .01 chance of a farmer getting a good elemental sword, very possibly being high requirement, as well.

Guild Wars does follow supply and demand laws, as seen by how ele sword prices sunk as soon as a lot of sins farmed them.

Also (new discussion) has anyone noticed how a person RARELY gets a +5 energy weapon in prophecies or factions? let alone on a good skin? Caster weapons would instead be ELITE weapons as compared to their 15^50 counterparts.

Also, in reference to the "nearly all weapons in prophecies/factions are merch trash" comment, note how rare that would make the select few weapons that are NOT merch trash.

And don't bring up the "everyone deserves fair weapons" arguement again. Collectors fixed that. If you are too lazy to collect 5 of some creatures' bones, then perhaps you do not DESERVE a max weapon...lol...

Once again, ramblings over with ^^

Cheers,
Ethernet Runner