Curse

pumpkin pie · Jul 25, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Grunntar, I suspect there are no more mouse control in GW2 ... mouse is my saviour lol when i get stuck in pvp ...

Wildi · Jul 25, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

complex skills

Complex skills isn't a bad thing, but gw1 is hard to balance because there are many (complex) skills. On the other side it offers many possibilities. Blizzard used a skill tree, it is easy to balance but there are not many possibilities. Now what anet wants is less complex skills to make balancing easier, unfortunately it will reduce the ammount of useful skill combinations which makes it worse for people who like to play around with skills.

darkdreamr · Jul 25, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

Complex skills isn't a bad thing, but gw1 is hard to balance because there are many (complex) skills. On the other side it offers many possibilities. Blizzard used a skill tree, it is easy to balance but there are not many possibilities. Now what anet wants is less complex skills to make balancing easier, unfortunately it will reduce the ammount of useful skill combinations which makes it worse for people who like to play around with skills.

WoW's version is easy, fair, and boring as hell. GW1's version is hard, more difficult to balance, and probably the most fun part about the game. I will grant that perhaps there are too many skills and not enough people to balance them (like, what the hell is supportive spirit?), but I'd much rather see the same number of skills with more people working on balance than fewer skills resulting in less fun. And if they touch the complexity of skills and make everything red bars go up/down/turn green/turn purple, then I'll consider not buying GW2.

Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

sixofone · Jul 25, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

In GW, it seems that often new skills were simply someone saying: "Okay - we already have a skill that does this, and this. Now, what about a skill that does this and that - because we left out that when we made the first one."

Like Monk skills. I mean, do you really need 30 different ways to heal something? And, most people use 1 or 2, so niche skills like [supportive spirit] simply is too conditional to get much use. "But, hey- we already have a skill that heals, and one that prevents knock downs, but we don't have one that heals you if you take damage while you're knocked down!" Seems like they were simply trying to come up with a new skill for the sake of saying, "Oh, look! A new skill!"

On the other hand, sometimes they came up with something really useful, and filled a gap rather than a niche.

But, on topic: with GW2, perhaps they are referring to the multiple applications that skills might have? Like Ursan Blessing, which mentions being able to knock down barriers. So, maybe [lightning strike] can break open chests? [flare] can start fires?

Kinn · Jul 25, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

What happens if you use this skill while jumping, or that one while surrounded by monsters? Who knows? Give it a whirl and find out! Strain referred to it as "emergent complexity,"

Hahaha, what a load of marketing bollocks. Attacks that behave differently when the player is running/jumping/crouching/whatever is nothing new or groundbreaking, and it's quite sad that they've decided to package this up and market it as "emergence" (publishers always pressure their developers to come up with buzzwords to describe the game).

So GW2 might have some interesting skill combos. "Emergent complexity"? Hahaha. That's the sort of pretentious bollocks I'd expect from a Gamasutra article.

bookworm438 · Jul 25, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Speaking of running around the world, that's something you'll actually be able to do; run, jump, basically just dork around however you like. When you land in a new world, O'Brien explained, you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation--rather than have overly complex skills that take an excessive amount of brain matter to understand, players will learn less complicated skills that they will be encouraged to test out in any situation they can think of. What happens if you use this skill while jumping, or that one while surrounded by monsters? Who knows? Give it a whirl and find out! Strain referred to it as "emergent complexity," and if it works the way they say it will, I shall personally send them each a fruit basket. Having a wide variety of skills in a game is great, but the amount of reading and memorizing you usually have to do to have even the most functional ability in an MMO is enough to drop me into a deep state of catatonia.

Everyone is freaking out about this 'emergent complexity' and we don't even know that much about it.

Since everyone is interpreting and speculating this 'emergent complexity' thing, I'll post how I'm interpreting it. Obviously I don't know if how I'm interpreting it is correct or not. It's just speculation after all. All we can do is wait to see what this 'emergent complexity' thing is all about, and how it's implemented.

Quote:

It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation--rather than have overly complex skills that take an excessive amount of brain matter to understand, players will learn less complicated skills that they will be encouraged to test out in any situation they can think of.

From how I'm interpreting that, you'll still learn skills but it won't tell you everything you can do with that. You won't have to read through every skill while it tells you what will happen if you do this or that. It'll probably just give you the damage, maybe a conditional or two, but not tell you if you can't use it while jumping, or swimming, etc. It won't tell you 'oh and what ever skill does blah...blah...blah damage if you are swimming or jumping.' You would have to discover that yourself.

Quote:

What happens if you use this skill while jumping, or that one while surrounded by monsters? Who knows? Give it a whirl and find out!

That bit of information helps to support how I interpreted it.

Quote:

Having a wide variety of skills in a game is great, but the amount of reading and memorizing you usually have to do to have even the most functional ability in an MMO is enough to drop me into a deep state of catatonia.

Perhaps there won't be a lot less skills, just the skills won't be as descriptive and tell you every single thing about the skill.

When they said:

Quote:

It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation

They are just using the fact that people learn better by doing something rather than something just telling you everything.

If they are using that method, after most of us have learned what most skills do in certain situations, obviously we'll have noobs asking people 'what does this skill do while I'm jumping'. We'll just be able to tell them 'give it a try, and find out. That's what we had to do.' They'll be able to learn what skills do in certain situations faster, because they are learning by doing rather than telling.

I would prefer it if they implemented 'emergent complexity' like that rather than the way you guys are implying or just the simple 'read the skill to find out'.

Also this is off topic and please don't take it personally, ReZDoGG, but this is just bugging me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReZDoGG

Mainly cause it won't be nothing like gw1

It should be 'Mainly 'cause it won't be anything like gw1'. By saying won't be nothing like gw1, you are implying it'll be like gw1. (Sorry if that sounds like flame, it's not. Just that I have OCD, and when I see something like that, it just bugs me so bad.)

Skyy High · Jul 26, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

I like GW's skill system. That's not to say that I will auto-reject a new skill system; I've been playing this game for over 3 years, I could use a breath of fresh air. That said, if the new skill system sucks, I'm going to be pissed, because they had an excellent system and trashed it for something new and untested.

I really can't see how the "emergent complexity" crap is going to be that mystifying. We have wiki; any possible use for any possible skill will be up there as soon as someone uses it in said situation. I just hope that, in the name of being all mysterious about what skills can do, they don't forgo the use of damage numbers and the like in skill descriptions. I like seeing how much damage each skill can do; it helps me plan builds.

Here's an idea: when you first get a skill, it says something generic, like "Summons a large fireball that is lobbed at target foe." Then, each time you use it in a different situation, you'll be able to view each possible use of the skill by hovering over it in your skill window (or whatever equivalent menu there is for equipping skills). So...after you use it while running directly at a foe, for instance, you'll read in your skill window, "While running: For X seconds, you move Y% faster and cannot turn. Each second, all nearby enemies are struck for Z fire damage. This enchantment ends when you strike a barrier or an enemy." Something like Volfen Pounce, or whatever that running enchantment is called.

Yeah, now that I think about it, please please please include some kind of system like this. Mystery and discovery are all well and good, but not including full and detailed skill descriptions in-game (even if they are unlockable, in a sense) will just lead to your non-casual players perpetually having wiki open for reference. That doesn't promote discovery, it's just a nuisance.

shoyon456 · Jul 26, 2008, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Personally I bet anet is beating themselves over their heads trying to figure this out. You can't make it too general of a description, as has been said, because then you can't plan builds accordingly. And yes, anet has already stated we will likely have a skillbar in gw2, with a similar dual profession system.

On the other hand, if they make it very specific, it would make skill descriptions 3x and 4x longer to read, and that much harder to plan because you have to look at how the skill in question would behave in every discernable situation.

In addition, skills behaving differently in certain situations would need to have effects that behave synonumously to complement each other as we have in gw. But, will the skills complement each other in all situations? One particular skill could be useless in the overall perspective of a skillbar in a certain situation, and killer in another. Both situations will probably be found in the same mission/quest.

Sorry if you get lost in the last paragraph, im basically saying skills would need to complement one another in more than one situation.

bookworm438 · Jul 26, 2008, 02:06 PM // 14:06

I know the wiki will have how the skill will react in every situation, but that would also help us determine who just went to wiki and who actually spent the time to learn the skills and test them.

It could also be that the difference isn't so significant that you don't have to count every situation into a build.

Anet may have found away to implement just right, who knows. After 3 years of observing us play I'd think they would have some idea as to how to implement it to please us all. I mean if they announced it in an interview, they should have gotten somewhere with it, especially by now.

lord of all tyria · Jul 26, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Less skills, means more things like frenzy, diversion, gale etc. Then you make these have a slightly different effect based on the environment, your position, etc, to make it appear as though there are as many skills as GW.

ReZDoGG · Jul 26, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookworm438

Everyone is freaking out about this 'emergent complexity' and we don't even know that much about it.

Since everyone is interpreting and speculating this 'emergent complexity' thing, I'll post how I'm interpreting it. Obviously I don't know if how I'm interpreting it is correct or not. It's just speculation after all. All we can do is wait to see what this 'emergent complexity' thing is all about, and how it's implemented.

From how I'm interpreting that, you'll still learn skills but it won't tell you everything you can do with that. You won't have to read through every skill while it tells you what will happen if you do this or that. It'll probably just give you the damage, maybe a conditional or two, but not tell you if you can't use it while jumping, or swimming, etc. It won't tell you 'oh and what ever skill does blah...blah...blah damage if you are swimming or jumping.' You would have to discover that yourself.

That bit of information helps to support how I interpreted it.

Perhaps there won't be a lot less skills, just the skills won't be as descriptive and tell you every single thing about the skill.

When they said:

They are just using the fact that people learn better by doing something rather than something just telling you everything.

If they are using that method, after most of us have learned what most skills do in certain situations, obviously we'll have noobs asking people 'what does this skill do while I'm jumping'. We'll just be able to tell them 'give it a try, and find out. That's what we had to do.' They'll be able to learn what skills do in certain situations faster, because they are learning by doing rather than telling.

I would prefer it if they implemented 'emergent complexity' like that rather than the way you guys are implying or just the simple 'read the skill to find out'.

Also this is off topic and please don't take it personally, ReZDoGG, but this is just bugging me.

It should be 'Mainly 'cause it won't be anything like gw1'. By saying won't be nothing like gw1, you are implying it'll be like gw1. (Sorry if that sounds like flame, it's not. Just that I have OCD, and when I see something like that, it just bugs me so bad.)

No worries, I tend to say things out of frustration. Not knowing anything contrete about GW2 can be kind of frustrating... I'm sure alot of us are like that at the moment. I mean, it has been a year since Anet canceled GW1 campaigns, and almost a year since EoTN was released... We are just getting impatient, and need something new to keep us playing. When Anet leaves us in that dark about GW2, and then pretty much abandon us in GW1, as far as further Campaigns and Expansions... That is kind of like kicking us while we are down

So, when they go and talk about certain ideas that just seem nothing like GW1, and yet don't give any further detail, it just leaves everyone wondering what exactly do they mean by it. Which can be kind of frustrating. I mean, if we don't have anymore expansions or campaigns to look forward to playing, they can atleast gives us as much more details about GW2 to keep us somewhat excited... But I am sure they are keeping alot of info on ideas a secret because they don't want anyone to take their ideas, I understand this, but still kinda sucks. As far as the info we have gotten so far, the ideas don't seem anything like GW1 and I was just hoping that it would be for the most part, as far as the Unique gameplay goes. But of course, there is really ain't much to go on. I just hope they keep things like Solo Farming builds, Chest Running, etc. Those fun things. I am sure they won't take that all out, but if you think about it, solo farming in GW1 is far different than farming in a "persistent" world MMO. I also hope they don't take out the world map travel in GW1 and end up making us use "Teleport Scrolls", that would also disappointing. But yeah, I guess we can't do anything but just hope it will greater than we expect. In the end, I am sure it will. But still skeptical of course...

Also, I do understand they are trying to make a great game, and are constantly battling with current and upcoming MMO/RPG's... which ends up forcing them to come up with more and better ideas that are not currently thought of, and then needing to keep it a secret as I mentioned. Of course that would mean they cannot give much information as far as ideas for the game, and then leads to alot of frustrated people.

You also have some interesting outlooks on this threads topic, and it would be kind of cool for skills to do different things than they describe. But then again, wouldn't that mean the skills would actually be more complex and harder to learn by spending alot of time trying different things and testing their usage? Even though Wiki would of course give every skills usage as people find them... I dunno, we'll see.

All this makes you wonder if they actually have a working game so far, or are they still just coming up with ideas...?

Parson Brown · Jul 26, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

The way I figure it is that skills might behave only slightly differently depending on position. Like, maybe fireball behaves normally when cast at a distant foe, but becomes an AoE when the player is surrounded.

What I don't get is how it is LESS complex to have no skill descriptions to read while you have to "try it out" and remember what does what.

Koudelka · Jul 27, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

"We don't want skills that require an excessive amount of brain matter".

Nonsense. Name me one vaguely complicated skill in Guild Wars. I enjoy skills requiring a little thinking to use, as I also knowing exactly what those skills do, down to the letter. Making them more vague is annoying, arenanet.

Also, surely making skills change with the environment / position makes them more complicated?