Curse

Squishy ftw · Aug 19, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loot Junkie

I heard that [aegis] and [protective spirit] was gud

lololol nub, [healer's boon] and [orison of healing] is the way to go.

Phineas · Aug 19, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

^
I suspect Aegis and PS will be making a huge comeback after Ursan nerf. I personally <3 both of them, but I think monking got dragged along with Ursan. Just like how many PUGs demanded only a certain rank of Ursan, most of them also demanded a particular monk bar (HB, with the two seeds) which favoured outhealing damage rather than preventing or negating it.

So you're pretty much getting the monk version of all the Ursan complaints. If they're smart, they'll adapt. If they can't adapt and are hellbent on sticking to the same old bar, they probably won't be playing monk for much longer.

It's not just monks that need to change...

I was recently in a PuG where the second monk pinged a build with Unyielding Aura and the party 'leader' responded with 'No, go HB please'. I pointed out that UA allows for even more powerful heals than HB and comes with Insta-Res and the leader had a change of heart, but by then it was too late, the second monk had left due to the initial short-sightedness.

PuG players would benefit so much from giving each profession a go for themselves but with there being 10 of them, and with so many skills to trawl through I can understand that it's not for everyone. With a little understanding, from all PuG'ers, we'll get there in the end and not castigate someone for not running the only bar you ever heard of for a given profession.

glacialphoenix · Aug 19, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

PuG players would benefit so much from giving each profession a go for themselves but with there being 10 of them, and with so many skills to trawl through I can understand that it's not for everyone. With a little understanding, from all PuG'ers, we'll get there in the end and not castigate someone for not running the only bar you ever heard of for a given profession.

I sure can dream about that.

Everyone has to adapt - I was referring to monks largely because the previous poster was talking about them. And yes, I don't PUG largely because I dislike being stuck in a build rut, which is what PUGs tend to do to you.

On the other hand, in a PUG where you don't know how good the other player is, people tend to prefer the safest builds they can find. This may not always be the best option, but if it's generally considered foolproof, that's what people unfamiliar with the class will go with. The old HB build is a prime example of that. Unfortunately, this mentality extends not just to builds, but to entire classes. (I really wish I saw more mezzes and paras, by the way.)

I agree with you that PUGs would benefit if they were more open to professions and options, but I honestly don't believe it's going to happen anytime soon, if ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

I was recently in a PuG where the second monk pinged a build with Unyielding Aura and the party 'leader' responded with 'No, go HB please'. I pointed out that UA allows for even more powerful heals than HB and comes with Insta-Res and the leader had a change of heart, but by then it was too late, the second monk had left due to the initial short-sightedness.

That's what I mean when I say monking got dragged along with Ursan. Everyone wanted HB, HB, HB - I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of monks out there who can't DO much except HB, just as there are people out there who are trying to relearn their classes after going Ursan for so long. (I know someone who actually stopped Ursaning because he felt that it was affecting his ability to nuke on his ele.) The difference is, now that UB has been nerfed, people refuse to touch Ursan - but I highly doubt that all that many of them have realised that this means that monks have to change their tactics too - and this statement applies to everyone, not just monks.

Da Rk Bl Ad E · Aug 19, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Yeah I hate it when a pug invites me and asks for my build, I was running zb prot or rc prot, can't remember..but anyhow the leader says (with caps ofc) "HB PLZ IT HAS BIGGR HEALS ", that's usually when I leave...also It's funny when some guy argues how his Dunkoro running Hb with healing breeze "pwns" any N/Rit Healer.

Loot Junkie · Aug 19, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Yeah the pug mentality on monk builds(or "build", rather, pugs only accept one lol)really grinds my gears. 3 years ago when I monked FoW my bar looked something like this: [orison of healing][dwayna's kiss][word of healing][healing touch][healing seed][remove hex][divine spirit][rebirth] and people would go "eww why are you bringing divine spirit and not heal other and healing breeze? The value of my build was proven when the other(usually inadequate)monk would die. I would cast DS and start throwing heals around on my 40/40 weapon set at a cost of 1e each and save the day with my "worthless" build lol.

Nowadays I like a hybrid bar such as this [cure hex][dwayna's kiss][word of healing][dismiss condition][glyph of lesser energy][aegis][protective spirit][rebirth] or [resurrection chant] on both monks, but pugs look at a bar like that and wonder how it can possibly compare to the amazingly awesome HB/all heals bar lol. If your team puts up a steady chain of [aegis], then you don't need to cast a ton of [heal party], but I guess that [glyph of lesser energy][healer's boon][heal party] is the lazy button for pve monks.

Phineas · Aug 19, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loot Junkie

Yeah the pug mentality on monk builds(or "build", rather, pugs only accept one lol)really grinds my gears.

Any profession gets the same treatment though, really, if they're wanted in the PuG in the first place. I get the impression that some PuG players heard that a certain build was good for profession X and therefore insist that it is used, whether they are leading the party or not.

Whilst I agree that it may be wise for a PuG to all adopt builds that wiki rates as good and provide a greater chance of success, there are so many ways to accomplish goals in the game that blindly opposing all other builds because you didn't hear of them is narrow-minded. As posted previously, if you see a flaw in a build, then sure, go ahead and offer advice (if they'll take it) but if you have no experience of playing that profession or are unfamiliar with the skills being pinged, take the chance to educate yourself and see why it's not the build you were expecting.

But how to educate the masses? That's a tough one to crack.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 20, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Here's what I get when I play in a PUG on each profession, and why I hate people who tell me I should play with PUGs and not H/H...

On my Ritualist [Main Character] - I can't get groups on my Ritualist.
On my assassin - Very difficult to get groups thanks to the idiot Naruto fans.
On my warrior - I'm told to tank. I refuse and get kicked.
On my paragon - I can't get groups on my Paragon.
On my Monk - Warrior runs in and dies, I get the blame. People with low armour or Radiant runes die easily, I get the blame. Overaggroing, I get the blame. I leave.
On my elementalist - I don't play my Elementalist anymore, but I do know that PUGs wrongly place Elementalists in the role of damage.
On my ranger - I don't play my Ranger anymore, so I really have no idea how Rangers are doing in PUGs.

I have no character slots for other professions. The last slot is PvP.

Loot Junkie · Aug 20, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Any profession gets the same treatment though, really, if they're wanted in the PuG in the first place. I get the impression that some PuG players heard that a certain build was good for profession X and therefore insist that it is used, whether they are leading the party or not.

Very true Phineas, 3 years ago pugs insisted on triple-echo nukers and rejected mesmers, necros and rangers. Some time later necros were accepted into pugs but you always had to run the exact same arcane echo/SS blood rit bar without any variation allowed. Man I hated casting arcane and 2 copies of SS and then waiting an eternity for some energy to cast something again.

Tombs groups were more of the same damn crap. I can remember not long after NF came out, anet buffed the recharge on barbs, and then buffed the damage up to +16 with curses maxed. I was eager to be a curses necro on a tombs team with a bar like this: [spiteful spirit][reckless haste][barbs][mark of pain][weaken armor][enfeebling blood][blood ritual][resurrection signet]. Keep in mind that weaken armor was a hex that gave an armor penalty of -20 armor vs physical damage, not the condition spell that it is today. It was awesome to cast [barbs] and [weaken armor] on a worm and watch it drop like a house of cards. As it turned out, I had to beg and plead with tombs groups to take 4 barragers and me instead of the usual 5 rangers. The runs were usually 15 minutes less than normal, but nobody seemed to get that it was having the necro along that made it possible. They would all just slap each other on the back with a "good run guys, this team rawks, good monking". Little did the monk know that it was the proper use of reckless haste and enfeebling blood that made his/her job so much easier lol.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 20, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loot Junkie

good monking

This is what I hear when I play a Paragon in the rare PUG groups that are desperate enough to take a Paragon, even when my 85% damage reduction is what's keeping them alive. And it very much pisses me off, especially when I see the monk cast Orison of Healing or Healing Breeze.

Shadowspawn X · Aug 20, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loot Junkie

Very true Phineas, 3 years ago pugs insisted on triple-echo nukers and rejected mesmers, necros and rangers.

Only the idiots did that. You know we pugged and never cared and never failed an area either.

Burst Cancel · Aug 20, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

I pointed out that UA allows for even more powerful heals than HB and comes with Insta-Res and the leader had a change of heart, but by then it was too late, the second monk had left due to the initial short-sightedness.

UA is categorically worse than HB as a healing skill; what makes it compelling is the res.

mr_stealth · Aug 20, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

UA is categorically worse than HB as a healing skill; what makes it compelling is the res.

IMO, the secondary effects are the best aspects of both skills. I do agree with you about the healing of the two. The extra few % of healing boost from UA is definitely not worth the -1 regen if you are just comparing straight up healing power.

Phineas · Aug 20, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

UA is categorically worse than HB as a healing skill; what makes it compelling is the res.

And I agree, but what I said was not false and for a random PuG, which this was, I figured it was likely we were going to get a fair few deaths seeing as it was FoW (normal mode) we were heading into. I know I've had success with UA in FoW so there's no reason why anyone else shouldn't. PuGs, well anyone, appreciate a fast res and return to battle. Whether you're using it for the heal bonus or not it is very quick to get a dead player up again.

The point I was making was that the leader in the team did not see past HB as a build for the monk in question, so I pointed out what UA was capable of and he was not so quick to dismiss it afterwards.

Loot Junkie · Aug 20, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Only the idiots did that. You know we pugged and never cared and never failed an area either

Wow Shadow, good memory! Yeah I remember running with you guys and clearing FoW twice in one saturday afternoon(quite the accomplishment back then), good times

. I also remember you ran a R/E with "meteor sprinkle" lol.

Amnel Ithtirsol · Aug 20, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Here's what I get when I play in a PUG on each profession, and why I hate people who tell me I should play with PUGs and not H/H...

On my Ritualist [Main Character] - I can't get groups on my Ritualist.
On my assassin - Very difficult to get groups thanks to the idiot Naruto fans.
On my warrior - I'm told to tank. I refuse and get kicked.
On my paragon - I can't get groups on my Paragon.
On my Monk - Warrior runs in and dies, I get the blame. People with low armour or Radiant runes die easily, I get the blame. Overaggroing, I get the blame. I leave.
On my elementalist - I don't play my Elementalist anymore, but I do know that PUGs wrongly place Elementalists in the role of damage.
On my ranger - I don't play my Ranger anymore, so I really have no idea how Rangers are doing in PUGs.

I have no character slots for other professions. The last slot is PvP.

Yea I see pretty much the same trend. Eles, Wars and Monks are it. It's really amazing that ppl still cant see the benefit of having an Imbagon in the group.
Pity you dont have a Derv to compare though. You will not believe how difficult it is to find a PuG. And if you do, it's Orders or Tank and that's that. AoE scythe domaaaaaaage... ?
Pffffft.

draxynnic · Aug 20, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Ah, but you just don't understand. A obstank with two heal monks can withstand all the damage, so to complete the run with high efficiency you want ALL of the other characters to be dealing max damage - you don't want any silly Paragons that don't do damage. And the only way to do that is with five Elementalists because, you know, necromancers, rits, mesmers and rangers don't do damage. Dervishes, Assassins and non-tanking Warriors will just steal aggro and die too fast, and they don't do damage.

And of course the monks need to do power healing. Reducing the damage being taken is the obstank's job, after all.[/sarcasm](in case it wasn't obvious)

Tyla · Aug 20, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnel Ithtirsol

Yea I see pretty much the same trend. Eles, Wars and Monks are it. It's really amazing that ppl still cant see the benefit of having an Imbagon in the group.
Pity you dont have a Derv to compare though. You will not believe how difficult it is to find a PuG. And if you do, it's Orders or Tank and that's that. AoE scythe domaaaaaaage... ?
Pffffft.

Scythe damage is broken without the AoE anyway.

Amnel Ithtirsol · Aug 20, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Ah, but you just don't understand. A obstank with two heal monks can withstand all the damage, so to complete the run with high efficiency you want ALL of the other characters to be dealing max damage - you don't want any silly Paragons that don't do damage. And the only way to do that is with five Elementalists because, you know, necromancers, rits, mesmers and rangers don't do damage. Dervishes, Assassins and non-tanking Warriors will just steal aggro and die too fast, and they don't do damage.

And of course the monks need to do power healing. Reducing the damage being taken is the obstank's job, after all.[/sarcasm](in case it wasn't obvious)

I lol'd!
Brilliant!

@ Tyla: Yea, it is. You need to group your targets carefully to have the full effect but, boy, add in some [splinter weapon] and see them monstas fall... I can imagine a coordinated Derv team could clear DoA almost as fast as old Ursanway with the correct tactics. (There is a template on pvx but I never could get enough dervs together to try it...)

cataphract · Aug 20, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I think none of the Ursaners are elitists. It's a paradox, like I saying "All Europeans are liars!". Ursan = "casual" (hehehe), Elitist = not casual. Although people using that term use it just like "You Jew!" or "You idiot!", that is without sense or randomly.

My experiences with Ursans have been different and from what I can tell - a lot of them are elitists. They have mindlessly farmed for their precious "high-end" items and now consider themselves better. Being a non-casual player does not make one elitist. It's a state of mind, not the /age of one's account. All elitists I have ever met put emphasis on cookie-cutter builds and equipment, not skill. Out-of-the-box thinking is unknown to them. That's why they run around in black obsi armor, voltaic spears, amethist aegis, chaos gloves and ninja masks. Cookie-cutter. Do what everyone else does and emphasize your "leetnes" via equipment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by persuadu

If you want this evironment to be relatively empty and just play with your friends list and Guild Roster, then celebrate, because this is a step in that direction. Oh, and wait to see what happens to the market when people stop playing, even the average and low end folks.

GG! QQ!

Friends and guild/alliance is all I ever team-up with. Occasional PUGs are for the laughs.
As for the economy - why do people still bother with that? Is there anything one could possibly need after 38 months of play? I have every item I ever wanted, done everything I set out to do, bought every armor I have ever liked (monk obsi excluded, it's ugly as hell). What is the point of a mindless key-bashing of Ursan? Getting ecto and buying another obsi armor? What the hell for - they're all ugly (except female mes). Buying a q9 Voltaic Spear to replace the q10 you already have? What the hell for - the thing is hideous and wouldn't be caught dead wielding it.

Economy of GW does not concern me. There is nothing in this game you could offer me and nothing that I want or need to have. After so many months of play, I have everything I ever wanted.

glacialphoenix · Aug 20, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

This is what I hear when I play a Paragon in the rare PUG groups that are desperate enough to take a Paragon, even when my 85% damage reduction is what's keeping them alive. And it very much pisses me off, especially when I see the monk cast Orison of Healing or Healing Breeze.

*headdesk.
That's the thing about monks, though - either you get all the blame or all the credit. Doesn't change the fact that paragons are severely unappreciated. I've played with imbagons before, and I know it was much, much easier to monk with them around. I don't think anyone else realises it, though, because you can't actually see damage negated, whereas you do notice damage healed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Ah, but you just don't understand. A obstank with two heal monks can withstand all the damage, so to complete the run with high efficiency you want ALL of the other characters to be dealing max damage - you don't want any silly Paragons that don't do damage. And the only way to do that is with five Elementalists because, you know, necromancers, rits, mesmers and rangers don't do damage. Dervishes, Assassins and non-tanking Warriors will just steal aggro and die too fast, and they don't do damage.

And of course the monks need to do power healing. Reducing the damage being taken is the obstank's job, after all.[/sarcasm](in case it wasn't obvious)

LOL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

get the impression that some PuG players heard that a certain build was good for profession X and therefore insist that it is used, whether they are leading the party or not.

I think the PuG mentality runs along the lines of "HE'S NOT RUNNING THE CORRECT BUILD, HE'LL KILL US ALL!" At least, that's the impression I get from what they say. A large amount of them appear to be convinced that if it's not a wiki build, it's going to be the scourge of the run and the source of their downfall and subsequent humiliation and all that. Half the time I have to go "...um, I'm monking for you guys, and I can monk for him just fine, too, bad pulls and worse aggro excluded."