Curse

pumpkin pie · Aug 14, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragile Feeling

Guilds are happy places, PUG's are not.

Simple.

not always true, some guild have idiots in them.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 14, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Now will be the rise of the QQ about people being unable to find groups. Because, it is true that for the million reasons people hated ursan in the end it gave every profession the ability to actually be looked at beyond class and as a "viable choice".

Now, pugs are impossible unless you do the holy trinity again (unless you have an active guild which a lot of people for different reasons do not have).

I would not be surprised if their is another form of buff back to ursan within a few months (not a revert, but a buff of some kind that would allow it to be usable again).

Amnel Ithtirsol · Aug 14, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

To OP:

Farther Baker...

We ran together a few times... but then you probably won't remeber the Derv (usually) trying to install some sanity in a group of over-aggroing peeps...

DoA was fun with Ursan. It opened up a way for any profession to PuG and, even with low AL characters as Ursans, if you had halve a brain the runs were super successful. I made some cash there and for that I will be greatfull to Ursan for a long time... (Bring on the HoM update!)

The day after the nerf I went and capped some elites, did some RA, HB etc. bought Tomes etc etc. all to set up different builds which I thought the "new generation" PuGs would consider useful. It turned out nasty though. After standing in GoA for hours (turned into days) trying to find a group it dawned on my that the clock has been turned back to the times before UB.
"No u fn noob, you are not Warrior or Ele or Monk... lmao!!!!!11!!1 derv GTFO!!!." Calling me a noob when I've cleared DoA with pugs maybe 50 times. Go figure.

The new generation PuGs turned out to be nothing more than oldschool relics that continues to live in the past. There is no grey area with them. They are not interrested in trying something different or new. And yes. I can imagine that failure of any kind will not be tolerated. (Oh, and I also tried finding a PuG for Slavers'... long story short, it ended the same way.)

So like you my last PuG attempt in DoA left a bad taste...

At least you have a Monk there. It will be tough to adapt to the playstyle of the majority of PuGs in there now but it's still possible for you to get into the groups. Dont give up, things will hopefully change over time.

And yes. Find a nice PvE Guild, one that would appreciate a new member with fresh ideas. There are guilds like that out there.
GoE, for example, came up with a new concept for DoA posted by Koning in the Farming section...

Then...

To all the rude elitists:
Lots of people enjoyed using Ursan.
And while I tend to agree that it 'probably' was good to remove it from the game it still has negative effects on lots of players.
After months of constant QQ you got your way, Ursan is dead.
Wether or not it is "better" for the game will only be seen in the long run. So this is not the "/end of the discussion", tyvm.

It doesnt really matter what you say or what you think. Just like this post is MY opinion, everything you have to add is YOUR opinion - why flame someone for stating theirs.

But I keep on forgetting...
Some people live in the Interwebs.
Some people actually play the game.

I'm off to make some popcorn.

Div · Aug 14, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Playing Guild Wars and complaining about aspects of the game without even being in a guild is pretty funny.

upier · Aug 14, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

I think this is true. The actual game is improved. For more players to improve with it will take a little understanding and compassion to be shown towards those that didn't run the 'elite' areas without Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

QFT.

This site needs a /rolleyes emote so that I can get my point across.

ToA is like a concert for the deaf.
But hey - it's not like we didn't expect that. Besides, my heroes can't use PvE skills so it's not like anything changed.

fireflyry · Aug 14, 2008, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The game is better now.
If you feel otherwise - you are mistaken.
End of discussion.

QFT.

People are confusing words like "better", "fun", "open", and "social" for open abuse of a broken skill.

Thank god Anet didn't.

I'm just glad I can PuG my fav missions like THK without dealing with Ursan scrubs anymore.If I go to higher tier areas I grab guildies like any other player with a brain does.The "holy trinity" only applies to puggers and imo high-end areas should be the way they are:

Pugging = distinct disadvantage, restrictions, and/or fail.

Go join a decent active guild thats based in your area/time zone as high-end should be more enjoyable and rewarding to those that do and I'm glad Anet have reverted to that initial philosophy.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2008, 06:43 AM // 06:43

On the other hand... people who don't have R9+ Norn actually now have a chance. Swings and roundabouts.

Clearly there are still problems with the system... maybe the solution is to buff the 'unfavoured' professions to the point where the elitists are forced to acknowledge them, then slowly paring them back? Ursan, however, was at best a bandaid solution that just shifted the population being excluded.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 14, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

The whole, quit your whining and go join a good guild has been beaten to death. It is very annoying that it is the answer to everyone's problems. Wonder how many players are in small guilds/ no guilds and don't have access to many pve players for high end areas. Most likely there are a great deal of them.

Having to leave your own guild, to join a guild with a lot of pve players just so you can occasionally go and complete the uw, doa, fow or whatever seems like a horrible excuse.

In an ideal game, everyone would be able to pug whatever they wanted and find groups. Unfortunately, that will never happen because of the mentality that you just need healers, tank/s and nukers. In my opinion having ursan the way it used to be wasn't as game breaking or problematic as everyone seemed to make it be.

Sure, everywhere you went you saw pugs forming ursan groups which you wanted no part of. You wanted real skilled builds which (according to everyones excuse) go find a guild to do it with. For pugs they relied on ursan because it was the only viable option for them to actually get a group.

Ursan was for the noobs/ pugs who just wanted to get things done. The casual players or people in small guilds that can't get a full group of friends to play whenever they want.

In all honesty, Ursan isn't as bad as everyone makes it. For the most part, everyone who was against it saying it was for noobs had a group of guild or friends they could complete things with actual skilled builds. Ursan is for noobs, no denying that.

Hopefully they will find a medium that will help, where noobs and pugs can actually go and get it done easily without as much prejudice. Where all the skilled players and guilds/friends can make their specialized group and complete things quicker than any ursan team could ever hope.

Phineas · Aug 14, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Playing Guild Wars and complaining about aspects of the game without even being in a guild is pretty funny.

I guess you had some meaning there, yet I don't see it. Humour, maybe? Are my rights to have my own opinion invalidated by not being in a guild? But of course, holymasamune, you know my entire Guild Wars playing history and are completely at liberty to make such comments.

As for my 'complaint', the aspect of the game is not the game itself, but the players. Those that pour scorn on others for no proper reason. Much like you just did, sadly. I'm not moaning about builds and skills, just those that sit behind their keyboards passing judgement on those less fortunate because they've come the game later in its life and have to contend with the 'elite' players.

There are players in the game that never knew a Guild Wars without Ursan. These players should not be criticised for not having a build to fall back on, when all they saw up to now was that they needed a certain Norn rank. These players are among those asking around for new ideas and it's the 'elite' players who then take great delight in shouting at them. All they really needed to do was ping the build being requested, but apparantly that's too much for some people.

upier · Aug 14, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

QFT.

People are confusing words like "better", "fun", "open", and "social" for open abuse of a broken skill.

Thank god Anet didn't.

ALL PvE-only skills.
They did and they do.

(Like I said - the post you quoted would need a /rolleyes emote.)

Martin Alvito · Aug 14, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

If people really can't clear without the use of gimmick builds and consumables, they're very very very bad.

While absolutely true, there are several problems to be overcome:

1) Most players are terrible, and if you're pugging there are relatively few good screening mechanisms for weeding out idiots prior to entry.

2) This directly follows from #1: Most group leaders are terrible, and can't come up with a non-standard build to save their lives.

3) Time is money. If you're pugging an elite area, presumably you're only there for the loot. (If you were there for fun, you wouldn't pug, because pugs are almost never fun.)

Implication: expect to see the same unimaginative, relatively quick build in PuGs. Running the same build everyone runs stabilizes expectations, which helps address problem #1. Problem #2 can only be overcome in a regular play group situation where a good leader is supported by good players. So, the locally optimal solution to #3 given #1 and #2 is going to be wiki builds in PuGs. Further note that consumables are a way of addressing #1.

Any questions?

Golgotha · Aug 14, 2008, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Playing Guild Wars and complaining about aspects of the game without even being in a guild is pretty funny.

Whether or not you're in a guild has little to do with the game itself. The hell kind of logic are you twisting about?

Shasgaliel · Aug 14, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Actually it is all about people that need to feel better than others and they want the game to provide them with this possibility. After Ursan nerf they now came back to Toa and Goa and keep rebuilding their ego. Elite missions are for elite someone wrote in one of the posts above. I think that sums it up.

I do not know if ursan nerf was good or bad for the game. I am sure of one thing the game would be better when all those elitist would go do something else than just sit in elite areas and show off. So that the new people can try to explore new areas by themselves instead of mindless running (regardless with Ursan or without) with "stand here", "kill that", "cast this" etc. You learn game by exploring it by yourself not by receiving a set of instructions, copying builds, and you have fun when you do not have to hear all the time "you noob" every time you try something new or "I did it 120 times already, so I know better than you".

Actually I play the game from 2005 and I have to say it was much better back then. There were mostly new people in the game. All wanted to learn and explore. I still remember dying 3 times in a row in a different pugs in ruins of Surmia on my first charr till finally doing it correctly. Nobody was flaming and calling names. It was really fun. Playing the game was more important than having the mission done in a few minutes and with using the most efficient route. Now there are not many new players in game. Those who join leave soon... If you want to have GW more fun then stop showing off.

Avarre · Aug 14, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Whether or not you're in a guild has little to do with the game itself. The hell kind of logic are you twisting about?

A game designed for team play that incorporates a huge aspect of the game into developing groups (guilds). I'd say being in a guild is rather logical.

It's like saying killing monsters (grouping) is hard with 0 attributes (no guild). You want to play without them, then you have to deal with the loss of benefits.

isildorbiafra · Aug 14, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

The ppl who are now badmouthing others in DoA and ToA are the same ppl who wanted to see Ursan nerfed. They ran their cookie cutter builds before ursan and are at it again. And those builds, most got from wiki/ guru are no different than the 1234 that ursan used to be. Its the same shit. Tap tap tap. Imo the ursan nerf will only contribute tot the shrinking player pool. I believe most post introduction ursan players will quit the game.

Anet couldn't care less that players are leaving. They allready got payed and benefit from a small player pool, cause they can close servers and save money on energy costs. That is the downside with not having a monthly fee. Anet has no insentive whatsoever to fix this broken game.

One thing the elitists should keep in mind however is that with an ever shrinking player pool, to whom will they be selling all those rare drops from the UW/FoWDoA to? The market is saturated as is allready. Think about it.....elite run...rare item.......guess you'll have to merch it; cause the players you where rude to/ the potential buyers, wont be around for you to sell your elite drop to.

daze · Aug 14, 2008, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Post in the Hero thread, maybe if we get enough people, we can just do UW/FoW with heroes (and I don't mean running gimmicky builds or farming builds, I mean legitimate 1 human, 7 heroes teams).

Great idea, Heros hardly ever run off in different directions trying to do their own thing(unless they are named koss)
and they never just map out for no reason.

daze · Aug 14, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The whole, quit your whining and go join a good guild has been beaten to death. It is very annoying that it is the answer to everyone's problems. Wonder how many players are in small guilds/ no guilds and don't have access to many pve players for high end areas. Most likely there are a great deal of them.

Having to leave your own guild, to join a guild with a lot of pve players just so you can occasionally go and complete the uw, doa, fow or whatever seems like a horrible excuse.

I happen to lead my guild which is made up of mostly family, friends and roommates. Granted, i do have other members but sadly i am the most elite player in my guild. I enjoy leading a guild and my alliance. Unfortunately any other player with as much or even more experience than me is not looking for a mere 20 member guild. So i have to resort to my friends list to find anyone who wants to UW or FoW or DoA. Which at any time i have maybe 7 to 10 friends online. Chances of finding one that is down for a UW clear is not very promising. Which leaves me to PUGs but now a days i would rather take mhenlo and his band of merrymen than flaming stick-up-the-ass people who will not hesitate to leave the party 1/3 of the way through UW after he dies for the first time.
So until i either get lucky and find steady elite players who want to join my guild or my alliance, DoA will be unreachable. Guess Ill just stick to H/H Vanquishing.
Im not complaining, just stating an observation.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Ursan was for the noobs/ pugs who just wanted to get things done. The casual players or people in small guilds that can't get a full group of friends to play whenever they want.

How many casual players have the time to grind to R9 Norn? I'd rather make a brand new character of one of the desired professions.

As I said earlier, getting rid of Ursan just traded one form of elitism for another. But with Ursan dominant there was no way that the elitism could be removed, while now there may actually be a chance.

Amnel Ithtirsol · Aug 14, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

How many casual players have the time to grind to R9 Norn? I'd rather make a brand new character of one of the desired professions.

It took 5 hours to max Norn during one of the double reward points weekends. It took much longer to max LB and SS.
Do you mean to say that starting a new character of the "desired" (read: elitist, holy trinity) profession and completing NF is faster?

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

As I said earlier, getting rid of Ursan just traded one form of elitism for another. But with Ursan dominant there was no way that the elitism could be removed, while now there may actually be a chance.

I hope you are right. But the only possible way that I see this happening is if ANet buffs the "undesired" professions to the point where they are better than the current "desired" professions AND there are different builds posted on pvx straight after that.

fireflyry · Aug 14, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The whole, quit your whining and go join a good guild has been beaten to death. It is very annoying that it is the answer to everyone's problems. Wonder how many players are in small guilds/ no guilds and don't have access to many pve players for high end areas. Most likely there are a great deal of them.

True but does that justify the brokeness that was UB pre-nerf?

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

.
In an ideal game, everyone would be able to pug whatever they wanted and find groups.

Me thinks not.

Being able to PuG and steamroll high-end is not good for the game.There should be areas where teamwork, experience and communication count.

UB did anything but promote this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Whether or not you're in a guild has little to do with the game itself. The hell kind of logic are you twisting about?

Common sense?

Playing with an experienced and well organized group of people has a lot to do with the game itself.It's a team based MMO, not Dungeon Siege.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

I believe most post introduction ursan players will quit the game.

Anet couldn't care less that players are leaving. They allready got payed and benefit from a small player pool, cause they can close servers and save money on energy costs. That is the downside with not having a monthly fee. Anet has no insentive whatsoever to fix this broken game.

The game was popular before, it will be popular after.

If scores of people decide to leave because they can't Ursanway through the whole game the community will be all the better for it.

Regardless the smoke screen of "it was better", "everyone could play", "it was more fun", "only elitists will have fun now", etc, etc is laughable and easily seen through.

You can still have as much fun as you want.

You can't steamroll high-end areas with a broken skill.

It would be so much easier if people were honest about why they are QQing as opposed to claiming how much this nerf broke the whole game.

It didn't.