Curse

fireflyry · Jul 16, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

I think we 100% agree but failed to communicate properly.

:P

Sha Noran · Jul 16, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Or maybe your guru join date is misleading and you just dont have a clue.

Yes, looking at my posting history it's clear I haven't got a clue in the world.

The types of shrine blessings you were referring to in the post I was originally replying to are not the same as the shrines that were in the game pre-Factions, which only offered Morale Boosts and a "Holy Blessing" which bestowed a meager +25 additional max health and +3 HP regen... hardly comparable to additional points in your attributes or any of the other silly buffs they put into Factions shrines.

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

- random group in term of efectivness totally sub-par to guild group
- balanced "role" builds totally sub-par to gimmick builds
- not having all chapters -totally sub-par to having all skill and secodaries at your disposal
- certain proffesion totally sub-par in pve then others

-As it should be, and always will be
-Wrong, pugs just run gimmicks because they don't know what else to bring.
-Good players make good out of the tools given to them. The only problem is that you may not be able to run a gimmick, but that's more of a pug mentality problem..
-Not entirely. Some just can't be fit into a gimmick too well, or don't set in with the standard mentalities often seen in other MMO's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

What is so good in dividing playerbase in closed groups ?

What's so good in ruining the depth in your game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

]As I had said before - to be able to Ursan PuG - you need to be max Norn.
Which means you need to unlock HM.
Which means you completed the game.
Which means you did learn what was expected of you.

And who sets that standard? Are you saying that players are privileged access to the harder difficulties because of all this, even if they're not skilled enough?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I am sorry - but the reasons aren't terrible.
You just don't agree with them.

You can really say that to any decision any game designer makes: "It's not that turning everyone into Carebears was a 'terrible decision', just that you don't agree with the direction".

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

]Actually - if you are losing without Ursan - you are losing because you are bad (or better yet - not good enough).
The game ISN'T balanced for Ursan (meaning Ursan being "the best option" and the game being beatable only by the best option).
If there are players able to achieve what you fail at without Ursan - that means you are not good as they are.

Understandable. But knowing that part of the reason you and your friends may be having trouble with a certain area is because you're not using an easy, cheap, grinded, and overpowered build isn't always a comfort. It should only be because you're not good enough. We've been given new tools and we're not using them, and because of that we're having a rougher time. Forcibly gimping yourself should not be a reason of failure.

It's not "the best" option, but there are very few areas where it doesn't work. Not only that, but it's easy to use, easy to set-up.

upier · Jul 16, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And who sets that standard? Are you saying that players are privileged access to the harder difficulties because of all this, even if they're not skilled enough?

A.Net sets it. Who else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You can really say that to any decision any game designer makes: "It's not that turning everyone into Carebears was a 'terrible decision', just that you don't agree with the direction".

What I am saying is that players do not have the right to say that certain arguments are bad and they they can not be listened to.
A.Net has that power. And it's up to A.Net to look at them and then decide which is too weak to be listened to.
Players can argue against it - but in a game that doesn't have a clear direction - shooting down what is basically "I like it because I have fun with it!" is going to be one hell of a job!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Understandable. But knowing that part of the reason you and your friends may be having trouble with a certain area is because you're not using an easy, cheap, grinded, and overpowered build isn't always a comfort. It should only be because you're not good enough. We've been given new tools and we're not using them, and because of that we're having a rougher time. Forcibly gimping yourself should not be a reason of failure.

One chooses to not use the tools.
One chooses to have a harder time.
And then it turns out one isn't good enough to be able to carry that weight.
And one fails.

But you are right. Easy, cheap gimmicks shouldn't be able to succeed where balanced builds fail.
But that's not an Ursan issue.
That's a GW PvE issue.

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A.Net sets it. Who else?

Why'd they change their standards to suit a minority who don't care or concern themselves with the way GW is set up? It's not earning them anymore money, in fact if they cater more to them it's going to hurt themselves in the long run.

Fortunately, they're starting to see this as evidenced by the recent dev update:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArenaNet:Developer Update

Although we are not making major PvE-related balance changes this time, we are working on a larger PvE-focused update. We are currently testing changes to Ursan Blessing and PvE-only skills. One of the goals is to balance Ursan such that players can still use it as long as they do so in a tactical way. Another goal is to alter the grind currently associated with many PvE-only skills. Additionally, we are adjusting a number of underpowered and rarely used elite skills. Depending on how testing goes, some or all of these changes may be released as soon as next month.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What I am saying is that players do not have the right to say that certain arguments are bad and they they can not be listened to.
A.Net has that power. And it's up to A.Net to look at them and then decide which is too weak to be listened to.

*Once again* we come back to the list of questions I've asked you numerous times. It matters less in what they do and who they listen to, but why they do so. Since these changes only concern themselves with a minority of players, it's more baffling what ANet's motives are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

One chooses to not use the tools.
One chooses to have a harder time...

These are the two parts that shouldn't have to take place in order to meet the following two:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

...And then it turns out one isn't good enough to be able to carry that weight.
And one fails.

When you play a game, you should not be challenged becuase you're not using the best of the best. You should be challenged even if you're using the best of the best. You can say "well you're too good for the game". If that was true then a person who knows very little and only how to max a title should not be able to complete the hardest portions of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But you are right. Easy, cheap gimmicks shouldn't be able to succeed where balanced builds fail.
But that's not an Ursan issue.
That's a GW PvE issue.

So fix the gimmicks. Don't encourage them. Metas exist in all formats of GW, both PvE and PvP.

Magikarp · Jul 16, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So fix the gimmicks. Don't encourage them. Metas exist in all formats of GW, both PvE and PvP.

i figured it wouldn't have taken 500+ post to finally get this correct answer..

bel unbreakable · Jul 16, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

ah but at what point is an original build a gimmick

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bel unbreakable

ah but at what point is an original build a gimmick

Same rules as PvP apply, really. If it's accessible, it shouldn't be effective.

kostolomac · Jul 16, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When you play a game, you should not be challenged becuase you're not using the best of the best. You should be challenged even if you're using the best of the best. You can say "well you're too good for the game". If that was true then a person who knows very little and only how to max a title should not be able to complete the hardest portions of the game.

Balance =/= challenge , new content = challenge. There is no balance that can bring challenge back in pve , only new , unwikied content can do that. PvE is just too old to provide challenge to an older player the natural way like you described.

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Balance =/= challenge , new content = challenge. There is no balance that can bring challenge back in pve , only new , unwikied content can do that.

So not making UB overpowered as crap and balancing overpowered skills - while will require you to do more skill, build, and professions research to be effective in their place - will not make the game more challenging?

And if the wiki makes everything so easy, why did we need UB and all of these overpowered stuff in the first place? If people are really that bad, then shouldn't we not be adding all of these things?

And I'm not talking about "challenging the older players". I'm talking about providing a challenge to the newer ones. Saying "well it's a different game these days" doesn't justify allowing even the lowest common denominator to complete the hardest content in the game. It'd be like allowing players who just picked up God of War to be able to beat the game on God mode.

Lopezus · Jul 16, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

-As it should be, and always will be
-Wrong, pugs just run gimmicks because they don't know what else to bring.
-Good players make good out of the tools given to them. The only problem is that you may not be able to run a gimmick, but that's more of a pug mentality problem..
-Not entirely. Some just can't be fit into a gimmick too well, or don't set in with the standard mentalities often seen in other MMO's.

i agreed that things should matter but now they matter far too much because of imbalance in pve content. And PUG mentality is a problem but what is more is poor game design that exactly promotes the worst of this mentality and in fact very often is encouraging or even creating it b/c of reasons you even admited.

What is really pissing me off is the fact that people think of good old prophecies days: but you know what ? All content back then was availiable to all:casuals and hard core dedicated gamers - the key point was skill and willingnes to learn and getting better. The only thing 'elite' players could get was prestige items like fow armour, but gw progressed towards wow style where skill doesn't matter but your dedication. So it turns out that "elite" players love the idea of areas restricted only to them "wow style", because like : level and gear in wow are segregating casuals from hard-core players, the same is done in Gw by:
- random group in term of efectivness totally sub-par to guild group
- balanced "role" builds totally sub-par to gimmick builds
- not having all chapters -totally sub-par to having all skill and secodaries at your disposal
- certain proffesion totally sub-par in pve then others
which in fact do same: put a skill behind and promote dedication.
So you'd better accept the shift in GW towards WoW (thing 'elite' players really enjoy) and stop babling to devs how you love skill>time because they might belive you and get confused and presents you with pve skills and UB.

Quote:

So fix the gimmicks. Don't encourage them. Metas exist in all formats of GW, both PvE and PvP.

That's what i'm ranting for:removing UB and pve skills is not enough to balance pve.

upier · Jul 16, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Why'd they change their standards to suit a minority who don't care or concern themselves with the way GW is set up? It's not earning them anymore money, in fact if they cater more to them it's going to hurt themselves in the long run.

Fortunately, they're starting to see this as evidenced by the recent dev update:

*Once again* we come back to the list of questions I've asked you numerous times. It matters less in what they do and who they listen to, but why they do so. Since these changes only concern themselves with a minority of players, it's more baffling what ANet's motives are.

And the reason why I don't bother answering it is because I CAN'T!
That's not a question for fellow players - it's a question for A.Net.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When you play a game, you should not be challenged becuase you're not using the best of the best. You should be challenged even if you're using the best of the best. You can say "well you're too good for the game". If that was true then a person who knows very little and only how to max a title should not be able to complete the hardest portions of the game.

That's not GW you are talking about.
Why is it so?
Ask A.Net.
The whole negating an opinion because of something that "should" be is getting old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So fix the gimmicks. Don't encourage them. Metas exist in all formats of GW, both PvE and PvP.

Once you have foes dealing 400+ damage - you surely won't allow a person in caster armour to get hit by that.
And that means completely remodeling PvE.

Avarre · Jul 16, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bel unbreakable

ah but at what point is an original build a gimmick

A gimmick build is a build that relies on a specific trick to be effective. Whether is the use of a powerful combination (stacking orders with arrow shot compression), or a mechanic (SR), the build is almost completely built around exploiting that aspect to the maximum potential as its primary and sole weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

What is really pissing me off is the fact that people think of good old prophecies days: but you know what ? All content back then was availiable to all casuals and hard core dedicated gamers - that key point was skill and willingnes to learn and getting better. The only thing 'elite' players could get was prestige items like fow armour, but gw progressed towards wow style where skill doesn't matter but your dedication. So it turns out that "elite" players love the idea of areas restricted only to them "wow style", because like : level and gear in wow are segregating casuals from hard-core players

What is the difference between elite players wanting skill to matter, and the old days providing a willingness to learn and get better? Areas that cannot be completed without a level of competence give a point to player improvement, and provide no restriction besides their difficulty.

I'm not sure why you're putting words in the mouths of 'elite players', who are far from a single entity, when you admit in your post that you're not one of them.

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's not a question for fellow players - it's a question for A.Net.

And we're getting our answer in the form of the next update. It's about time.

And if you can't answer it, why are you here? If you can't defend your point and reasoning, why argue? All of your points have to be for a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's not GW you are talking about...

Not anymore. Hence, this thread, and all discussion pertaining to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Once you have foes dealing 400+ damage - you surely won't allow a person in caster armour to get hit by that.
And that means completely remodeling PvE.

Or it means preventing the caster from taking all that damage, figuring out how best to take down that monster before he hits the caster, or how you'll be able to disable said monster.

kostolomac · Jul 16, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So not making UB overpowered as crap and balancing overpowered skills - while will require you to do more skill, build, and professions research to be effective in their place - will not make the game more challenging?

And if the wiki makes everything so easy, why did we need UB and all of these overpowered stuff in the first place? If people are really that bad, then shouldn't we not be adding all of these things?

And I'm not talking about "challenging the older players". I'm talking about providing a challenge to the newer ones. Saying "well it's a different game these days" doesn't justify allowing even the lowest common denominator to complete the hardest content in the game. It'd be like allowing players who just picked up God of War to be able to beat the game on God mode.

I'm not advocating that A.net doesn't do anything about balance in pve.

I mentioned wiki because it helps when doing something for the first time.

UB doesn't allow bad players to do everything , you still need minimal abilty. But I do agree with you about that.

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

i agreed that things should matter but now they matter far too much because of imbalance in pve content. And PUG mentality is a problem but what is more is poor game design that exactly promotes the worst of this mentality and in fact very often is encouraging or even creating it b/c of reasons you even admited.

Pug mentalities exist because of pugs. Not because of the game. Granted, if something does get a little messed up near the introduction of a class, people may come up with a bad view of the class. But more than anything else, it's going to be the overwhelming mentality that forms in players minds.

Look at Paragons: they're still being denied groups because they're apparently "useless", which could not be farther from the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

That's what i'm ranting for:removing UB and pve skills is not enough to balance pve.

It will never appear "balanced" from a PUG perspective. No matter what you do, how well you fix the Mesmer class, how much versatility and viability you give to every profession - pugs are always going to choose favorites even when everyone is equal.

If you attempt to fix this, the pug mentality, you will only cause further harm to your game.

That aside, though, you're reasoning is pretty interesting: you don't want to fix overpowered skills and aspects in the game...because balance can't be achieved?

Well no duh, of course you won't achieve if you don't fix what's harming it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I'm not advocating that A.net doesn't do anything about balance in pve.

I mentioned wiki because it helps when doing something for the first time.

UB doesn't allow bad players to do everything , you still need minimal abilty. But I do agree with you about that.

It's how minimal that ability can be and still remain effective that matters.

glacialphoenix · Jul 16, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

People who haven't played as much as older players have? That's not an issue if the player is good. People who got through the game on a cheap, gimmicky build, show off titles, and turn out to not be able to do basic things like pulling? No, they shouldn't be able to do HM just because they have Ursan, thank you.

If a player who started back when there was only Prophecies plays as well as a player who started when there was Proph, Factions, and Nightfall, then they should, technically, be able to do the same things. An ele who got through the game by flarespamming, however, shouldn't be able to do the same thing as an ele who knows how to manipulate his bar. If all you know how to do is cast Searing Flames, then you sure as heck shouldn't be able to defeat Destroyers as well as people who can figure out a build to get past their immunity to burning and resistance to fire.

DarkNecrid · Jul 16, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

^There will probably be an update before the PvE update, since they cut stuff out of the last patch (note: they called it a patch, not an update for once.) for the Guru tournament. I figure there might be one tomorrow with what they didn't balance....maybe.

Also

Quote:

A gimmick build is a build that relies on a specific trick to be effective. Whether is the use of a powerful combination (stacking orders with arrow shot compression), or a mechanic (SR), the build is almost completely built around exploiting that aspect to the maximum potential as its primary and sole weapon.

To put it more simply for those who didn't understand that:
A gimmick build is a gimmick if when you remove something from it, it collapses and fails. A balanced build is one that can have bits and pieces of its build get destroyed and still be effective.

For example, if you remove the Orders from the Rangers, the build starts to suck.
If you disable the Searing Flames in Searing Flames spike, it sucks.

etc.

kostolomac · Jul 16, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

To balance pve , A.net must also look at the enemies.
PvE skills (both ours and the monsters) sure as hell aren't made for a balanced builds , but for gimmick builds. Both the skills and pve itself need to be changed to reward balanced teams and not gimmicks.
About gimmicks , if I understand correctly , nearly every reanger and necro build is a gimmick?

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

The problem with the monsters, which will always be a constant problem, lies in their AI. That always has to be taken into consideration. This is shown quite well in heroes: how often have you given them a build that you use, only to see them use the skills in the incorrect order and especially on the wrong enemies?

As such, that's why I don't consider monster skills and insane stats terribly overpowered. In the hands of an adaptable individual, maybe, but not in a predictable computer.